FBCH calls another Jack . . .

[christundivided]

Interesting thread.

What about God's command for Aaron to not mourn the death of his two sons?  David also appears to have wept for Amnon and then quickly turned to business as usual.

Also, it is not unusual for many African-American pastors to preach the funerals of their wives, children, parents, etc.

I experienced a similar situation myself.  My mother died on a Sunday morning so I was not in the morning service.  I attended and conducted the evening service.  I thanked the people for their prayers and calls and visits and concern that morning.  I did not preach but I did remind the people that though God did not answer my prayer and heal my mother God was still a good God and that even in taking my mother He has done all things well.  She was only 63.

I am new here but I think we should give the brother the benefit of the doubt and allow people to grieve as they grieve since we have no genuine biblical prescription for grieving with reactions ranging from Jewish wailing to Joseph adopting the Egyptian mourning and burial process to Aaron being forbidden to mourn by God. 

Grace is a wonderful thing, especially when we extend it to those we think do not deserve it....Oh yeah, that is Grace.

Did anyone PRAISE you for your actions? Would you have appreciated that PRAISE?

Do you remember what Aaron's sons did? I WONDER why God told Aaron not to mourn them.....

I WONDER what Amnon did??? Oh I remember, he raped Absalom's sister....

I never said one thing against anyone preaching their loved one's funeral. I am against the unrealistic and sicking idea that "Grace" somehow alleviates the need to mourn. Or the idea that things need to go as usually to prove to one's self or others.... that you really.... truly.... .believe and trust God. Or that somehow.... acting any different gives the "devil" the upperhand.

 

[christundivided]

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:


CU is a complete moron!!!!


Amen.

Coming from you.....I'll take that as compliment.

 

[christundivided]

Depends on the why? Do you plan on being wrapped in linens and spices then buried in a rock-carved tomb? If not, why aren't you doing things "God's way"?

What "depends on the way" mean?

Never said anyone had to have a rock-carved cave. You're the one saying customs are customs...... Everyone's custom is alright with you.

As long as you ignore Hosea et al, right? (Funny...that example has been mentioned repeatedly.)

I didn't ignore it. Its obvious you know nothing of Hosea and his relationship with his whore of a wife. Read it the first time and you might understand why God did what He did.

If my wife or kids were to die before me, I plan on preaching their funerals. My wife is aware of this and fully supportive of it. It's not even that uncommon of a thing.

Have at it. Make sure you go soul winning before you do and plan to get in whatever is part of your "daily routine". You need to be a good example of God's grace.

As far as there being Communion, why not? Communion has significant eschatological significance so a Christian funeral would be a very appropriate place to celebrate salvation.

I see you ignored everything else I included in my comments. Discuss it with your wife. Hopefully she will approve.

 

[graceandtruth]

Interesting thread.

What about God's command for Aaron to not mourn the death of his two sons?  David also appears to have wept for Amnon and then quickly turned to business as usual.

Also, it is not unusual for many African-American pastors to preach the funerals of their wives, children, parents, etc.

I experienced a similar situation myself.  My mother died on a Sunday morning so I was not in the morning service.  I attended and conducted the evening service.  I thanked the people for their prayers and calls and visits and concern that morning.  I did not preach but I did remind the people that though God did not answer my prayer and heal my mother God was still a good God and that even in taking my mother He has done all things well.  She was only 63.

I am new here but I think we should give the brother the benefit of the doubt and allow people to grieve as they grieve since we have no genuine biblical prescription for grieving with reactions ranging from Jewish wailing to Joseph adopting the Egyptian mourning and burial process to Aaron being forbidden to mourn by God. 

Grace is a wonderful thing, especially when we extend it to those we think do not deserve it....Oh yeah, that is Grace.

Did anyone PRAISE you for your actions? Would you have appreciated that PRAISE?

Do you remember what Aaron's sons did? I WONDER why God told Aaron not to mourn them.....

I WONDER what Amnon did??? Oh I remember, he raped Absalom's sister....

I never said one thing against anyone preaching their loved one's funeral. I am against the unrealistic and sicking idea that "Grace" somehow alleviates the need to mourn. Or the idea that things need to go as usually to prove to one's self or others.... that you really.... truly.... .believe and trust God.

Not sure about how the quote option works yet.

No one praised me and I was not interested in being praised but in thanking the people who supported me at that time and the God who had graciously given me 63 years with my mother.

CU your implication that a father does not grieve for his child because of what the child did is contrary to human nature.  It is still the parent's child and they still love their child regardless of their actions.

 

[christundivided]

Interesting thread.

What about God's command for Aaron to not mourn the death of his two sons?  David also appears to have wept for Amnon and then quickly turned to business as usual.

Also, it is not unusual for many African-American pastors to preach the funerals of their wives, children, parents, etc.

I experienced a similar situation myself.  My mother died on a Sunday morning so I was not in the morning service.  I attended and conducted the evening service.  I thanked the people for their prayers and calls and visits and concern that morning.  I did not preach but I did remind the people that though God did not answer my prayer and heal my mother God was still a good God and that even in taking my mother He has done all things well.  She was only 63.

I am new here but I think we should give the brother the benefit of the doubt and allow people to grieve as they grieve since we have no genuine biblical prescription for grieving with reactions ranging from Jewish wailing to Joseph adopting the Egyptian mourning and burial process to Aaron being forbidden to mourn by God. 

Grace is a wonderful thing, especially when we extend it to those we think do not deserve it....Oh yeah, that is Grace.

Did anyone PRAISE you for your actions? Would you have appreciated that PRAISE?

Do you remember what Aaron's sons did? I WONDER why God told Aaron not to mourn them.....

I WONDER what Amnon did??? Oh I remember, he raped Absalom's sister....

I never said one thing against anyone preaching their loved one's funeral. I am against the unrealistic and sicking idea that "Grace" somehow alleviates the need to mourn. Or the idea that things need to go as usually to prove to one's self or others.... that you really.... truly.... .believe and trust God.

Not sure about how the quote option works yet.

No one praised me and I was not interested in being praised but in thanking the people who supported me at that time and the God who had graciously given me 63 years with my mother.

CU your implication that a father does not grieve for his child because of what the child did is contrary to human nature.  It is still the parent's child and they still love their child regardless of their actions.

I wasn't my intent to give such an impression. In the case of Aaron's sons..... God commanded Aaron's sons not to be mourned. In the case of David and Amnon, David had to deal with Absalom and David well knew that Amnon received justice. This explains their actions. To compare such to the willing choice of man that is not experienced the same... is just silly.

May intent has never been to say that Wilkerson (and whomever choose to do as he did) did not mourn. However I do reject the the silly notions I mentioned.

Question for you.....

Say your pastor (which pastors a large congregation) lost his son tomorrow. If your pastor grieved to the point that he didn't preach again for 2 months, would you think ANY less of him? Would you believe he wasn't a proper example of Grace bestowed upon God's men?

In like manner, say there is another local pastor who loses his son and he preaches right on without missing a beat. He just goes on about his business as if nothing happened. Sure he cries. Sure he mourns but he still fulfills his proper "duties". Maybe he even goes out of his way to do more during this time....

Would you think more of this pastor. Would you believe that God's Grace was more accepted in this pastor's life than the one who mourned for two months and neglected all his duties?

Be honest.

Personally, I'd have to say the one that mourned for two months... and neglected all his duties.... is a man after my own heart. I prefer men that act no differently as a pastor than they would as a member of any church. I prefer people that don't feel obligated to perform as a super human example of Grace. I've seen enough pretense in my life. Have you?

 

[Frag]

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:


CU is a complete moron!!!!


Amen.

Coming from you.....I'll take that as compliment.

I know this is uncharted waters for you, but you have spent several pages defending your original unfair and idiotic post about a good man who tragically lost his son.

Now it is time....



...stop typing.....go to the mirror.......and say out loud 50 times............



"I was wrong and I am an IDIOT"!



Then, come back and graciously type your apology.



We are gracious people and will gladly forgive. 



And you will feel so much better.....

 

[rsc2a]

Depends on the why? Do you plan on being wrapped in linens and spices then buried in a rock-carved tomb? If not, why aren't you doing things "God's way"?

What "depends on the way" mean?

Why. Depends on the why.

[quote author=christundivided]Never said anyone had to have a rock-carved cave. You're the one saying customs are customs...... Everyone's custom is alright with you. [/quote]

Ah! So here you are saying you don't need Scriptural examples for your cultural traditions. Not being very consistent, are you?  ???

[quote author=christundivided]

As long as you ignore Hosea et al, right? (Funny...that example has been mentioned repeatedly.)

I didn't ignore it. Its obvious you know nothing of Hosea and his relationship with his whore of a wife. Read it the first time and you might understand why God did what He did.[/quote]

You asked for Scriptural examples. You received Scriptural examples. Do you deny this?

[quote author=christundivided]

If my wife or kids were to die before me, I plan on preaching their funerals. My wife is aware of this and fully supportive of it. It's not even that uncommon of a thing.

Have at it. Make sure you go soul winning before you do and plan to get in whatever is part of your "daily routine". You need to be a good example of God's grace. [/quote]

Again...back to the "only one way to show grief" mentality. Can you elaborate on the appropriate way to show joy since you obviously have the only correct answers?

[quote author=christundivided]

As far as there being Communion, why not? Communion has significant eschatological significance so a Christian funeral would be a very appropriate place to celebrate salvation.

I see you ignored everything else I included in my comments. Discuss it with your wife. Hopefully she will approve.
[/quote]

I ignored them because they were extraneous at hand. Since you asked...

Why have a baptism when there is no one seeking to join the Church? Many funerals do have "good old Gospel singers". No funeral I've ever been to lasted more than a few hours, much less two weeks...so why would a revival service be a general practice?

 

[christundivided]

Then, come back and graciously type your apology.

We are gracious people and will gladly forgive.

And you will feel so much better.....

You're not gracious and you're certainly not willing to forgive unless I acknowledge your "remedy".

but you have spent several pages defending your original unfair and idiotic post about a good man who tragically lost his son.

No. I attacked the idea that if want to handle it perfectly.... You'd do just as he did. I didn't set the standard. He did. He certainly is getting a lot of "PRAISE" for how he responded.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]Question for you.....

Say your pastor (which pastors a large congregation) lost his son tomorrow. If your pastor grieved to the point that he didn't preach again for 2 months, would you think ANY less of him? Would you believe he wasn't a proper example of Grace bestowed upon God's men?

In like manner, say there is another local pastor who loses his son and he preaches right on without missing a beat. He just goes on about his business as if nothing happened. Sure he cries. Sure he mourns but he still fulfills his proper "duties". Maybe he even goes out of his way to do more during this time....

Would you think more of this pastor. Would you believe that God's Grace was more accepted in this pastor's life than the one who mourned for two months and neglected all his duties?

Be honest. [/quote]

No to all three questions.

[quote author=christundivided]Personally, I'd have to say the one that mourned for two months... and neglected all his duties.... is a man after my own heart. I prefer men that act no differently as a pastor than they would as a member of any church. I prefer people that don't feel obligated to perform as a super human example of Grace. I've seen enough pretense in my life. Have you?[/quote]

Who says it is pretense? Who says everyone has to respond the same way? Who says the one is acting differently than some would? Who says they are striving to act as a superhuman example of grace (vs responding in their own way)?

Your problem is you keep trying to make humanity fit into a neat little mold where everyone behaves exactly as you expect and anyone that doesn't is, by default, broken. Here is what you need to understand: they aren't broken, they just respond differently.

 

[christundivided]

Ah! So here you are saying you don't need Scriptural examples for your cultural traditions. Not being very consistent, are you?  ???

What cultural traditions. Narrow it down for me.

You asked for Scriptural examples. You received Scriptural examples. Do you deny this?

Do you deny I explained it? Read again.

Again...back to the "only one way to show grief" mentality. Can you elaborate on the appropriate way to show joy since you obviously have the only correct answers?

Oh yeah. I mean you can show grief by chugging a 12 pack. Yet, most people will not recognize it. I reckon you could show grief by writing "I'm grieving" across your forehead. There are plenty ways of showing grief....

Somehow... I just can't see going about life as usual... being one of them.

I see you like sarcasm as good as I do....

I ignored them because they were extraneous at hand. Since you asked...

Why have a baptism when there is no one seeking to join the Church? Many funerals do have "good old Gospel singers". No funeral I've ever been to lasted more than a few hours, much less

I wasn't necessarily saying you need to do these at the funeral itself. The "baptism" thing might be a little tacky. Maybe you can fit them in before and shortly there after the funeral.

 

[rsc2a]

Ah! So here you are saying you don't need Scriptural examples for your cultural traditions. Not being very consistent, are you?  ???

What cultural traditions. Narrow it down for me.

Painting your corpse up like a clown, putting your Sunday suit on it, sticking it in a box, then burying the box in the ground.

(There are literally hundreds more, but these are relevant to the topic.)

[quote author=christundivided]

You asked for Scriptural examples. You received Scriptural examples. Do you deny this?

Do you deny I explained it? Read again.[/quote]

I read it. You didn't explain it.

[quote author=christundivided]

Again...back to the "only one way to show grief" mentality. Can you elaborate on the appropriate way to show joy since you obviously have the only correct answers?

Oh yeah. I mean you can show grief by chugging a 12 pack. Yet, most people will not recognize it.[/quote]

Large chunks of humanity would recognize it. Keep trying...

(This is also one of those cases I said would not be appropriate but had not been mentioned at the time.)

[quote author=christundivided]I reckon you could show grief by writing "I'm grieving" across your forehead. There are plenty ways of showing grief....[/quote]

People use ashes but that's also done in some cultures.


[quote author=christundivided]I reckon you could show grief by writing "I'm grieving" across your forehead. There are plenty ways of showing grief....

Somehow... I just can't see going about life as usual... being one of them. [/quote]

Who said life is "usual" just because you continue your routine? Life could be crumbling apart internally and the externals might never change.

 

[christundivided]

No to all three questions.

We are pretty much on the same page then. You want to have lunch and roast marshmellows while singing kumbaya?

Who says it is pretense? Who says everyone has to respond the same way? Who says the one is acting differently than some would? Who says they are striving to act as a superhuman example of grace (vs responding in their own way)?

People that "respond in their own way" usually don't write books detailing how God's grace gave them the strength to do it just right. Do they? People that do it their own way... don't care what other people think much less try to encourage someone else do it their way.

Your problem is you keep trying to make humanity fit into a neat little mold where everyone behaves exactly as you expect and anyone that doesn't is, by default, broken. Here is what you need to understand: they aren't broken, they just respond differently.

Nope. You've misunderstood me. Maybe its because we've butted heads before on other things. I don't believe someone has to do it just right. There is NO doing it just right. I'm not the one saying this is exactly the "right way".

 

[christundivided]

Who said life is "usual" just because you continue your routine? Life could be crumbling apart internally and the externals might never change.

This is the very definition of "putting on a show" or "pretense". Thank you for making my point for me. I can't believe you didn't recognize it when you wrote it.

Either way. I've said enough and I've made my point. There is no use to beat it to death. I'm sure there will be those that bash me moving forward. Doesn't matter. While you're doing your "bashing".... remember ....

Don't pretend you're doing it for my good......

 

[rsc2a]

Who said life is "usual" just because you continue your routine? Life could be crumbling apart internally and the externals might never change.

This is the very definition of "putting on a show" or "pretense". Thank you for making my point for me. I can't believe you didn't recognize it when you wrote it.

No...it can be "putting on a show". But, then again, there are some people who really just do not show their emotions. It's not a "show" for them; it's a personality type.

 

[rsc2a]

No to all three questions.

We are pretty much on the same page then. You want to have lunch and roast marshmellows while singing kumbaya?

Who says it is pretense? Who says everyone has to respond the same way? Who says the one is acting differently than some would? Who says they are striving to act as a superhuman example of grace (vs responding in their own way)?

People that "respond in their own way" usually don't write books detailing how God's grace gave them the strength to do it just right. Do they? People that do it their own way... don't care what other people think much less try to encourage someone else do it their way.

Your problem is you keep trying to make humanity fit into a neat little mold where everyone behaves exactly as you expect and anyone that doesn't is, by default, broken. Here is what you need to understand: they aren't broken, they just respond differently.

Nope. You've misunderstood me. Maybe its because we've butted heads before on other things. I don't believe someone has to do it just right. There is NO doing it just right. I'm not the one saying this is exactly the "right way".

Fair enough. 

 

[BALAAM]

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:


CU is a complete moron!!!!


Amen.

FRAG!!!! We agree!!!!!!

 

[Just John]

"Bout time we start having some good old fighting around here.... 

My .02....

Stating the obvious, by definition legalism is based on performance and often very evident in churches the type of FBCH and it's orbit. IMO there is a lot of hero typecasting of the "managawd" in these kind of churches where the pastors play a willing part or role (performance) and the members (worshippers) cast upon them their ideals of heroism. That there are in some circles a view cultivated of Pastor as Superman is not disputed. Adding to the dynamic is the value of stoicism often prevalent  in very conservative environments where "sucking it up" or "manning up" is  considered macho, it is no small stretch to think that many pastors or their followers want to see the pastor cast in this light...thus the playing it up by FBCH in this instance.

I don't know the heart of or have any idea what this pastor/father went through or how he really handled his grief and would never presume it upon him with what I know so far and would give him the grace to think the best of him. However it is not unreasonable to have the thought go through our minds based only by what we have seen in the culture.

 

[Reformed Guy]

Seizing the opportunity to use the death of a son to berate a grieving father, is imo, every bit as foul as a preacher seizing the opportunity of a dead son to elevate his own ego.

That the first has happened here, in this thread, is readily apparent.  The other, not so much. 

Some of the cooments made here are shameful.  Just my $0.02.

What is shameful... is the expectation of others to have the "great faith" he had in doing such.

I could care less what you think of me to the contrary. I've seen junk like this too long in you're average IFB church. You and people like you.... are too easy influenced by other people's actions. I have just as much a right to question his actions as he does to set others people exception of a proper action in dealing with the death of a son.

FTR, I am not IFB.  You say, "You and people like you.... are too easy influenced by other people's actions."  That's ironic coming from you, seeing that you have shown that the "actions" of certain IFBs have incensed (infuenced) you to the point that, in your hatred, you figure that any stick is good enough to beat them with.

 

[graceandtruth]

Interesting thread.

What about God's command for Aaron to not mourn the death of his two sons?  David also appears to have wept for Amnon and then quickly turned to business as usual.

Also, it is not unusual for many African-American pastors to preach the funerals of their wives, children, parents, etc.

I experienced a similar situation myself.  My mother died on a Sunday morning so I was not in the morning service.  I attended and conducted the evening service.  I thanked the people for their prayers and calls and visits and concern that morning.  I did not preach but I did remind the people that though God did not answer my prayer and heal my mother God was still a good God and that even in taking my mother He has done all things well.  She was only 63.

I am new here but I think we should give the brother the benefit of the doubt and allow people to grieve as they grieve since we have no genuine biblical prescription for grieving with reactions ranging from Jewish wailing to Joseph adopting the Egyptian mourning and burial process to Aaron being forbidden to mourn by God. 

Grace is a wonderful thing, especially when we extend it to those we think do not deserve it....Oh yeah, that is Grace.

Did anyone PRAISE you for your actions? Would you have appreciated that PRAISE?

Do you remember what Aaron's sons did? I WONDER why God told Aaron not to mourn them.....

I WONDER what Amnon did??? Oh I remember, he raped Absalom's sister....

I never said one thing against anyone preaching their loved one's funeral. I am against the unrealistic and sicking idea that "Grace" somehow alleviates the need to mourn. Or the idea that things need to go as usually to prove to one's self or others.... that you really.... truly.... .believe and trust God.

Not sure about how the quote option works yet.

No one praised me and I was not interested in being praised but in thanking the people who supported me at that time and the God who had graciously given me 63 years with my mother.

CU your implication that a father does not grieve for his child because of what the child did is contrary to human nature.  It is still the parent's child and they still love their child regardless of their actions.

I wasn't my intent to give such an impression. In the case of Aaron's sons..... God commanded Aaron's sons not to be mourned. In the case of David and Amnon, David had to deal with Absalom and David well knew that Amnon received justice. This explains their actions. To compare such to the willing choice of man that is not experienced the same... is just silly.

May intent has never been to say that Wilkerson (and whomever choose to do as he did) did not mourn. However I do reject the the silly notions I mentioned.

Question for you.....

Say your pastor (which pastors a large congregation) lost his son tomorrow. If your pastor grieved to the point that he didn't preach again for 2 months, would you think ANY less of him? Would you believe he wasn't a proper example of Grace bestowed upon God's men?

In like manner, say there is another local pastor who loses his son and he preaches right on without missing a beat. He just goes on about his business as if nothing happened. Sure he cries. Sure he mourns but he still fulfills his proper "duties". Maybe he even goes out of his way to do more during this time....

Would you think more of this pastor. Would you believe that God's Grace was more accepted in this pastor's life than the one who mourned for two months and neglected all his duties?

Be honest.

Personally, I'd have to say the one that mourned for two months... and neglected all his duties.... is a man after my own heart. I prefer men that act no differently as a pastor than they would as a member of any church. I prefer people that don't feel obligated to perform as a super human example of Grace. I've seen enough pretense in my life. Have you?

Sorry for the delayed answer.

I would not expect a pastor to neglect all duties for 2 months because no one in any other "career" field could do that.  It is customary where I live to be given 3 days for bereavement.  There is no reason to assume that because a man is a pastor that he would be given 58 more days than the other people in the congregation to mourn the death of a loved one without returning to regular duties.

However, I would not consider either of the three scenarios that you presented as abnormal.  Each person would have to deal with the situation on an individual basis.  For example two of my co-workers had their father die over the weekend.  One returned to work that Monday and worked the entire week only taking off at noon Friday to prepare for the funeral that Saturday.  The other did not return to work that Monday buried his father on Wednesday and still did not return to work until the next week.  Neither responded wrongly or sought to draw attention to himself.  They simply responded according to their cultural norms and personal preferences.

In defense of the brother's book that I have not read and do not intend to read, if God gave him the grace to cope with his grief by continuing in his duties that would be normal from his perspective.  He would be in error if he indicated that his experience should be considered the normal Christian experience.  For him to write from another perspective would be the equivalent of my two oldest sons being able to give a coherent and honest answer to the people that always ask them, "how does it feel to be a twin?"  Like my sons he has no other perspective.  Perhaps the fault lies with those who have turned this into a badge of honor and not with the gentleman who they are attempting to pin the badge on.

 

[christundivided]

Seizing the opportunity to use the death of a son to berate a grieving father, is imo, every bit as foul as a preacher seizing the opportunity of a dead son to elevate his own ego.

That the first has happened here, in this thread, is readily apparent.  The other, not so much. 

Some of the cooments made here are shameful.  Just my $0.02.

What is shameful... is the expectation of others to have the "great faith" he had in doing such.

I could care less what you think of me to the contrary. I've seen junk like this too long in you're average IFB church. You and people like you.... are too easy influenced by other people's actions. I have just as much a right to question his actions as he does to set others people exception of a proper action in dealing with the death of a son.

FTR, I am not IFB.  You say, "You and people like you.... are too easy influenced by other people's actions."  That's ironic coming from you, seeing that you have shown that the "actions" of certain IFBs have incensed (infuenced) you to the point that, in your hatred, you figure that any stick is good enough to beat them with.

Whether you officially call yourself a "IFB" or not... You generally support them.

I don't hate IFBs and I haven't beat anyone with a "stick". What do you prefer to use in "beating" those you disagree with?