FBCH calls another Jack . . .

[Reformed Guy]

Seizing the opportunity to use the death of a son to berate a grieving father, is imo, every bit as foul as a preacher seizing the opportunity of a dead son to elevate his own ego.

That the first has happened here, in this thread, is readily apparent.  The other, not so much. 

Some of the cooments made here are shameful.  Just my $0.02.

 

[christundivided]

What your comments (strongly) implied was that if something isn't explicitly laid out in Scripture, then it is contrary to Scripture. That's why you are using a "show me a Scriptural example or it's not valid" approach.

I never said it was explicit. It certainly isn't a command. Yet, there are clearly examples to the contrary of what this man chose to do. I'd even go so far as to say it contrary to common sense. My natural affection for my children would preclude me from "putting on a good face". I believe the average person would say the same thing. If this is somewhat the "norm" then you have to ask yourself why the "abnormal reaction"? I think the answer is evident in the continued promotion of his own actions several years after the fact. I'm sure that he thinks he was pleasing God. In fact, I am pretty sure that he thinks everyone should have the "strength" he had. That is why he wrote the book. To help others have the "strength" that he had.

I don't care if you believe one thing like I do. Believe whatever you choose to believe. HOWEVER, I don't want anyone to believe that the proper way to react to your own son dying..... is to going to "soul winning" class the next day. Or to preach "God makes no mistakes". The silliness of such an expectation is nauseating.

Then to see such an action being promoted as an example of his good character... is just plain silly.

What's really funny is..... He has promoted his own action as much or more than anything I have said to the contrary. You take exception to my actions and accept his "right" to do what he did.
Can you say "logical"?

 

[christundivided]

Seizing the opportunity to use the death of a son to berate a grieving father, is imo, every bit as foul as a preacher seizing the opportunity of a dead son to elevate his own ego.

That the first has happened here, in this thread, is readily apparent.  The other, not so much. 

Some of the cooments made here are shameful.  Just my $0.02.

What is shameful... is the expectation of others to have the "great faith" he had in doing such.

I could care less what you think of me to the contrary. I've seen junk like this too long in you're average IFB church. You and people like you.... are too easy influenced by other people's actions. I have just as much a right to question his actions as he does to set others people exception of a proper action in dealing with the death of a son.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]I never said it was explicit. It certainly isn't a command. Yet, there are clearly examples to the contrary of what this man chose to do.[/quote]

No...there are examples that are different, not contrary. Those are different.

[quote author=christundivided]I'd even go so far as to say it contrary to common sense. My natural affection for my children would preclude me from "putting on a good face". I believe the average person would say the same thing. If this is somewhat the "norm" then you have to ask yourself why the "abnormal reaction"? [/quote]

There are 7 billion people in the world. I think it is contrary to common sense to think there is one particular way people should respond to anything. Additionally, there are cultures that express emotions in ways that would be completely foreign to your Western mind.

[quote author=christundivided]I think the answer is evident in the continued promotion of his own actions several years after the fact. I'm sure that he thinks he was pleasing God. In fact, I am pretty sure that he thinks everyone should have the "strength" he had. That is why he wrote the book. To help others have the "strength" that he had. [/quote]

And he may have been. Again...you are judging how he dealt with grief as though there is only one way to do so. Some people isolate themselves. Others write. Some make themselves busy. Yet others change their entire lives. That doesn't make one method any greater or worse than another.

[quote author=christundivided]I don't care if you believe one thing like I do. Believe whatever you choose to believe. HOWEVER, I don't want anyone to believe that the proper way to react to your own son dying..... is to going to "soul winning" class the next day. Or to preach "God makes no mistakes". The silliness of such an expectation is nauseating. [/quote]

So the only proper way to respond to grief is how you feel is the proper way? Is sola christundivideda the new standard?

[quote author=christundivided]Then to see such an action promoted as being promoted as an example of his good character... is just plain silly. [/quote]

What's silly is that he felt the need to promote anything (if he did). What is likewise silly is your obsession with his behavior.

[quote author=christundivided]What's really funny is..... He has promoted his own action as much or more than anything I have said to the contrary. You take exception to my actions and accept his "right" to do what he did. Can you say "logical"?
[/quote]

See Reformed guy's excellent post below mine for a suitable response.

 

[christundivided]

So you're going to follow this "Bible example" for yourself, if your son dies? Or are you going to recognize the "context" of why it was written?

Since that example doesn't fit your conclusions about how folks are to mourn...

2 Samuel 12:15-23  And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth. And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them. And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead? But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead. Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat. Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

What a comparison. A unborn child, from an adulterous relationship, that God foretold would DIE because if his father's own sin.....

What about Jacob? Did you forget what Jacob did when he thought Joseph had died?

Gen 37:34  And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days.
Gen 37:35  And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

Did Jacob lack faith? Did Jacob sin in such an action?

Should Jacob have had such extraordinary faith in God that he just went about his everyday activities?

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]I never said it was explicit. It certainly isn't a command. Yet, there are clearly examples to the contrary of what this man chose to do.

No...there are examples that are different, not contrary. Those are different.[/quote]

Sure they are DIFFERENT. Have you even looked to see how they are different?

There are 7 billion people in the world. I think it is contrary to common sense to think there is one particular way people should respond to anything. Additionally, there are cultures that express emotions in ways that would be completely foreign to your Western mind.

I didn't question the actions of 7 billion other people. I questioned the actions of some that claims the faith of the Bible. Not what someone in India who's kissing the hand of some fake statue of "Budda" does.

And he may have been. Again...you are judging how he dealt with grief as though there is only one way to do so. Some people isolate themselves. Others write. Some make themselves busy. Yet others change their entire lives. That doesn't make one method any greater or worse than another.

Sure it does. What did great men of the Bible do? Do you even care what they did? Looks to me as if you don't.

So the only proper way to respond to grief is how you feel is the proper way? Is sola christundivideda the new standard?

Typical. I talk of Bible examples and you call it "sola christundivideda".

Is your way "sola rsc2aa"?

What is likewise silly is your obsession with his behavior.

I have no obsession. He did what he did. His choice. I think its a wrong choice. Even a silly choice. I haven't wrote a book and had it published on the proper way to handle the death of a son. HE DID. Get it?

See Reformed guy's excellent post below mine for a suitable response.

See my response to his response.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]What a comparison. A unborn child, from an adulterous relationship, that God foretold would DIE because if his father's own sin.....

What about Jacob? Did you forget what Jacob did when he thought Joseph had died?[/quote]

David. Hosea. Jacob.

Seems like all three responded differently. Your inclusion of other examples only makes the point...

...there are multiple ways people deal with grief, often ways that are completely opposite, and that doesn't make their grief any less, nor does it mean they are wrong* in how they express their grief

* There are legitimately wrong ways to express grief but none have been discussed in this thread.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]I never said it was explicit. It certainly isn't a command. Yet, there are clearly examples to the contrary of what this man chose to do.

No...there are examples that are different, not contrary. Those are different.

Sure they are DIFFERENT. Have you even looked to see how they are different?[/quote]

[quote author=christundivided]

And he may have been. Again...you are judging how he dealt with grief as though there is only one way to do so. Some people isolate themselves. Others write. Some make themselves busy. Yet others change their entire lives. That doesn't make one method any greater or worse than another.

Sure it does. What did great men of the Bible do? Do you even care what they did? Looks to me as if you don't.[/quote]

Yes. Some wept. Some didn't show any emotion. Some showed emotion until the death and then stopped grieving. Doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency and no guiding principle on the "right" way to grief.

(You are also horribly attempting to make a prescriptive out of a descriptive.)

[quote author=christundivided]

There are 7 billion people in the world. I think it is contrary to common sense to think there is one particular way people should respond to anything. Additionally, there are cultures that express emotions in ways that would be completely foreign to your Western mind.

I didn't question the actions of 7 billion other people. I questioned the actions of some that claims the faith of the Bible. Not what someone in India who's kissing the hand of some fake statue of "Budda" does.[/quote]

1 - People are still people regardless of their beliefs.

2 - Christianity isn't limited to the Western world, and Western culture isn't any more the the "correct" Christian culture than others.

[quote author=christundivided]

So the only proper way to respond to grief is how you feel is the proper way? Is sola christundivideda the new standard?

Typical. I talk of Bible examples and you call it "sola christundivideda".

Is your way "sola rsc2aa"? [/quote]

That's just it. I'm not telling anyone what the appropriate way to grieve is.

[quote author=christundivided]

What is likewise silly is your obsession with his behavior.

I have no obsession. He did what he did. His choice. I think its a wrong choice. Even a silly choice. I haven't wrote a book and had it published on the proper way to handle the death of a son. HE DID. Get it?[/quote]

You have no obsession but you've spend quite a bit of time lambasting him for his actions?

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]What a comparison. A unborn child, from an adulterous relationship, that God foretold would DIE because if his father's own sin.....

What about Jacob? Did you forget what Jacob did when he thought Joseph had died?

David. Hosea. Jacob.

Seems like all three responded differently. Your inclusion of other examples only makes the point...

...there are multiple ways people deal with grief, often ways that are completely opposite, and that doesn't make their grief any less, nor does it mean they are wrong* in how they express their grief

* There are legitimately wrong ways to express grief but none have been discussed in this thread.
[/quote]

Not true.

David acted similarly to Jacob in the death of his son Absalom. David also acted similarly to death of his son born out of adultery with a man's wife he had killed. A son that was foretold to die.

Hosea married a "whore' and his son's death represented "something" to Israel. Since you know nothing of Hosea.... I'll let you read to figure out what it meant.

 

[christundivided]

Yes. Some wept. Some didn't show any emotion. Some showed emotion until the death and then stopped grieving. Doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency and no guiding principle on the "right" way to grief.

Sure. There is a common thread.

Even so. You should be upset when ANYONE tries to set one.... even "Wilkerson".

1 - People are still people regardless of their beliefs.

2 - Christianity isn't limited to the Western world, and Western culture isn't any more the the "correct" Christian culture than others.

1. Sure. I agree

2. What I've said isn't limited to "culture".

Do you even believe it was a good thing that Native American culture changed because of "western influence"?  You sound just like Barack Obama.

That's just it. I'm not telling anyone what the appropriate way to grieve is.

Forget about "how to grieve". How about anything else? Do you tell them how they should do anything? Is that your "sola rsc2aa"?

Pot... meet Keetle.

You have no obsession but you've spend quite a bit of time lambasting him for his actions?

And you're spending quite a lot of time in bashing me. Are you obsessed?

 

[Mathew Ward]

What a comparison. A unborn child, from an adulterous relationship, that God foretold would DIE because if his father's own sin.....

What about Jacob? Did you forget what Jacob did when he thought Joseph had died?

Gen 37:34  And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days.
Gen 37:35  And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

Did Jacob lack faith? Did Jacob sin in such an action?

Should Jacob have had such extraordinary faith in God that he just went about his everyday activities?

Again, you asked for Biblical passages...I provided such.



The bottom line is that different people deal with death in different ways.  The Scriptures show how different people have dealt with it.

There is no one particular way to handle it.

 

[rsc2a]

Yes. Some wept. Some didn't show any emotion. Some showed emotion until the death and then stopped grieving. Doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency and no guiding principle on the "right" way to grief.

Sure. There is a common thread.

Even so. You should be upset when ANYONE tries to set one.... even "Wilkerson".

I am. So stop doing it.

[quote author=christundivided]

1 - People are still people regardless of their beliefs.

2 - Christianity isn't limited to the Western world, and Western culture isn't any more the the "correct" Christian culture than others.

1. Sure. I agree

2. What I've said isn't limited to "culture".

Do you even believe it was a good thing that Native American culture changed because of "western influence"?  You sound just like Barack Obama. [/quote]

Yes, in fact, there are cultural differences in how people respond to various emotional events. And there are aspects of the West that it was good for Native Americans to adopt. There are aspects of Native American culture it would be good for the West to adopt.

You are aware that Jesus wasn't an English-speaking white middle-class American, right?

[quote author=christundivided]

That's just it. I'm not telling anyone what the appropriate way to grieve is.

Forget about "how to grieve". How about anything else? Do you tell them how they should do anything? Is that your "sola rsc2aa"? [/quote]

I generally try not to tell people what they should and shouldn't be doing other than that they should be focusing on Jesus. I read something the other day I think is quite appropriate:

"Spend time fretting about all the problems of sin and worldliness, and you may become just as sinful and worldly as those things. Spend time focusing on Jesus and all His goodness, grace, and love, and you

 

[christundivided]

What a comparison. A unborn child, from an adulterous relationship, that God foretold would DIE because if his father's own sin.....

What about Jacob? Did you forget what Jacob did when he thought Joseph had died?

Gen 37:34  And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days.
Gen 37:35  And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

Did Jacob lack faith? Did Jacob sin in such an action?

Should Jacob have had such extraordinary faith in God that he just went about his everyday activities?

Again, you asked for Biblical passages...I provided such.

I explained what you posted and why. You're being silly in simple saying "you provided one". I know context means something to you. You've proven it before. Why does "context" not mean anything to you now?

The bottom line is that different people deal with death in different ways.  The Scriptures show how different people have dealt with it.

There is no one particular way to handle it.

and..... I have provided clear reason as to why they handled it differently. You can't provide instance in which a Godly man had a Godly son die.... and they acted like "Wilkerson". Not one. Its not there to find.

Lets just say you're right....There is no "particular way to handle it".

Then why does Wilkerson get praised for "going about things as usual"? or preaching "God makes no mistakes"? Why does a man write a book detail how God helped them to go about
"business as usual"?

Surely THEY BELIEVE that God helped them. Did God not help Jacob?

You see the silliness of such ideals. Yet, they are accepted as being true. A man gets praise for his choice. Which is a indirect approval of his "method" of dealing with the loss of a son. Its is a indirect method of setting a "standard". Don't pretend its nothing else.

 

[christundivided]

Yes, in fact, there are cultural differences in how people respond to various emotional events. And there are aspects of the West that it was good for Native Americans to adopt. There are aspects of Native American culture it would be good for the West to adopt.

Since there is no right or wrong in dealing with a son's death....

Then why not bury him like the Native Americans did? Why not do the chants? The ceremonies?

You are aware that Jesus wasn't an English-speaking white middle-class American, right?

You are aware that Jesus is a Jealous God that prefers His children act a certain way don't you? I really grow tired of arguing these points with you.

I generally try not to tell people what they should and shouldn't be doing other than that they should be focusing on Jesus. I read something the other day I think is quite appropriate:

"Spend time fretting about all the problems of sin and worldliness, and you may become just as sinful and worldly as those things. Spend time focusing on Jesus and all His goodness, grace, and love, and you

 

[Ransom]

They have the same ignorant, judgemental attitude they claim to hate in the 'fundies'.....
And in Canada, John and Scott must be also known as Jack...eh?

Have I just been criticized? It was so incoherent, I couldn't tell.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I can certainly see some of the mannagawd types in IFBdumb using their own son's death to further the cause, robbing themselves of legitimate grief and respectful mourning of their own kin, but since I haven't seen direct evidence that Wilkerson's purpose was as such, I'll assume that CU is merely inventing things or begging the question.  Until excerpts from the book which demonstrate his claim are posted here, I'll continue to enjoy the thrashing that rsc2a and other folk are giving the obtuse one.

 

[rsc2a]

Yes, in fact, there are cultural differences in how people respond to various emotional events. And there are aspects of the West that it was good for Native Americans to adopt. There are aspects of Native American culture it would be good for the West to adopt.

Since there is no right or wrong in dealing with a son's death....

Then why not bury him like the Native Americans did? Why not do the chants? The ceremonies?

Depends on the why? Do you plan on being wrapped in linens and spices then buried in a rock-carved tomb? If not, why aren't you doing things "God's way"?

[quote author=christundivided]

You are aware that Jesus wasn't an English-speaking white middle-class American, right?

You are aware that Jesus is a Jealous God that prefers His children act a certain way don't you? I really grow tired of arguing these points with you. [/quote]

Yes, He prefers that His children act with "love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."

You'll notice those are cross-cultural characteristics and elevate no culture over another.

[quote author=christundivided]I never said it was mandate. I simply made the point that if there is any type of example to be found.... its contrary to what Wilkerson is advocating.[/quote]

As long as you ignore Hosea et al, right? (Funny...that example has been mentioned repeatedly.)

[quote author=christundivided]Hey, feel free to go soul winning the day after your son dies. Heck. Why stop there. Have a "revival" and preach for two weeks straight. Maybe invite some good old Gospel singers. Have a baptismal. Maybe.... plan a communion service.[/quote]

If my wife or kids were to die before me, I plan on preaching their funerals. My wife is aware of this and fully supportive of it. It's not even that uncommon of a thing.

As far as there being Communion, why not? Communion has significant eschatological significance so a Christian funeral would be a very appropriate place to celebrate salvation.

So what is your point?

 

[graceandtruth]

Interesting thread.

What about God's command for Aaron to not mourn the death of his two sons?  David also appears to have wept for Amnon and then quickly turned to business as usual.

Also, it is not unusual for many African-American pastors to preach the funerals of their wives, children, parents, etc.

I experienced a similar situation myself.  My mother died on a Sunday morning so I was not in the morning service.  I attended and conducted the evening service.  I thanked the people for their prayers and calls and visits and concern that morning.  I did not preach but I did remind the people that though God did not answer my prayer and heal my mother God was still a good God and that even in taking my mother He has done all things well.  She was only 63.

I am new here but I think we should give the brother the benefit of the doubt and allow people to grieve as they grieve since we have no genuine biblical prescription for grieving with reactions ranging from Jewish wailing to Joseph adopting the Egyptian mourning and burial process to Aaron being forbidden to mourn by God. 

Grace is a wonderful thing, especially when we extend it to those we think do not deserve it....Oh yeah, that is Grace.

 

[christundivided]

I can certainly see some of the mannagawd types in IFBdumb using their own son's death to further the cause, robbing themselves of legitimate grief and respectful mourning of their own kin, but since I haven't seen direct evidence that Wilkerson's purpose was as such, I'll assume that CU is merely inventing things or begging the question.  Until excerpts from the book which demonstrate his claim are posted here, I'll continue to enjoy the thrashing that rsc2a and other folk are giving the obtuse one.

Find it yourself. Do a little work. It won't hurt you. Put forth a good example for ALAYBOY.

 

[Frag]

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:


CU is a complete moron!!!!


Amen.