FBCH calls another Jack . . .

[christundivided]

One does not become cancer when they get cancer. They are still intrinsically human. In the same way, we do not cease to be image bearers because we have sin. (See Gen 9:6.) To believe that humans are no longer human because they have a cancer is definitely a non-orthodox position.

rsc2a..... I had forgot to what lengths you will go....

Yes, God made mankind in his image. Yet, mankind does not COMPLETELY still bare that image.

That IMAGE included the lack of Sin. This is the very reason that Christ took upon himself the nature of a man. To be like man. To be a faithful High Priest. To share in man's pain and suffering.

If man was still completely made in God's image... Then why did Christ have to become like "man"?

Maybe you should read Gen 5:3

And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

or

Joh 3:31  He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

You also forget the words spoken by Paul in

1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Why even need to be changed rsc2a?

People do not become what they believe (except for in a poetic sense). Beliefs are intangible concepts; people are tangible beings.

So you're saying beliefs are not tangible? Are you serious? You really have chosen a poor description. I hope you know "tangible" has multiple meanings and one of those meanings references "identification by the mind".

Yet they can still change because they are not intrinsically defined by an idea. If "person" and "idea" were synonymous, then to change one would be to change the other.

Sure they do. Belief in murder creates a murderer.

Look at the context. It has to do with choosing dinner partners. 

LOL.... you missed it didn't you? You're telling me a man..... is who he believes himself to be.... when it comes to dinner guests... but nothing else? Seriously?

Gill wrote of the phrase.


He is not the man his mouth speaks or declares him to be, but what his heart thinks; which is discovered by his looks and actions, and by which he is to be judged of, and not by his words;

 

[AresMan]

Just curious why any church would seek a pastor from another successful church???

Really? Makes perfect sense to me. FBCH is all about numbers - that's how they measure success - by growth.

If Jacky The Third didn't come from a successful church, it would have been prima facie evidence that he couldn't sell FBCH's product.

I wonder if the name Jack was on the job description.

 

[rsc2a]

One does not become cancer when they get cancer. They are still intrinsically human. In the same way, we do not cease to be image bearers because we have sin. (See Gen 9:6.) To believe that humans are no longer human because they have a cancer is definitely a non-orthodox position.

rsc2a..... I had forgot to what lengths you will go....

Yes, God made mankind in his image. Yet, mankind does not COMPLETELY still bare that image.

That IMAGE included the lack of Sin. This is the very reason that Christ took upon himself the nature of a man. To be like man. To be a faithful High Priest. To share in man's pain and suffering.

If man was still completely made in God's image... Then why did Christ have to become like "man"?

Maybe you should read Gen 5:3

Is Genesis 9 before or after Genesis 5?

You do realize if you make a copy of a copy of an original the second generation copy is still a copy of the original, right?

[quote author=christundivided]Why even need to be changed rsc2a?[/quote]

Yes...why change the historically interpretation in favor of yours?

[quote author=christundivided]

People do not become what they believe (except for in a poetic sense). Beliefs are intangible concepts; people are tangible beings.

So you're saying beliefs are not tangible? Are you serious? You really have chosen a poor description. I hope you know "tangible" has multiple meanings and one of those meanings references "identification by the mind". [/quote]

Yes, but since the meaning I was using was clear, perhaps you'd engage the point being made instead of arguing against an odd understanding of the statement?

[quote author=christundivided]

Yet they can still change because they are not intrinsically defined by an idea. If "person" and "idea" were synonymous, then to change one would be to change the other.

Sure they do. Belief in murder creates a murderer. [/quote]

Do you believe in murder? Are you a murderer?

[quote author=christundivided]

Look at the context. It has to do with choosing dinner partners. 

LOL.... you missed it didn't you? You're telling me a man..... is who he believes himself to be.... when it comes to dinner guests... but nothing else? Seriously?

Gill wrote of the phrase.


He is not the man his mouth speaks or declares him to be, but what his heart thinks; which is discovered by his looks and actions, and by which he is to be judged of, and not by his words; [/quote]

Which "he"? Really...just look at the verses immediately surrounding this passage.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:


CU is a complete moron!!!!


Amen.

FRAG!!!! We agree!!!!!!

I totally agree as well....now THAT will ruin Frag's...and BALAAM's...reputation in IFB circles......

Ahem! I am no longer in ifb circles.

Balaam and TarH agree.............with ME!!!! 


I immediately recant WHATEVER I said!!!!  

It could be worse, divided could agree with you next....but I apologize for my part!

 

[Mathew Ward]

You see the silliness of such ideals. Yet, they are accepted as being true. A man gets praise for his choice. Which is a indirect approval of his "method" of dealing with the loss of a son. Its is a indirect method of setting a "standard". Don't pretend its nothing else.

You mean that IFBX'ers don't set direct standards and therefore have to use an indirect method for setting them?

Never said they didn't. Do you have one in mind? or are you just trying to make the point that both are somehow equally guilty?

When IFBX'ers set standards they do it in a deliberate way.  I have not found them to try and set them in a indirect manner.

 

[Frag]

Just curious why any church would seek a pastor from another successful church???

Really? Makes perfect sense to me. FBCH is all about numbers - that's how they measure success - by growth.

If Jacky The Third didn't come from a successful church, it would have been prima facie evidence that he couldn't sell FBCH's product.

I wonder if the name Jack was on the job description.

Good to see you post!  Haven't heard much from you.

Figured you were busy writing your next book, "Freedom to NOT Go Soul Winning".

 

[Frag]

Brilliant!  Thank you.  I was confused about that.   

 

[Pastor Marty]

I wasn't very encouraged when I read the weekend after his 17 year old son got killed in car wreck he preaches "God doesn't make any mistakes".....

Sounds like he was more concerned about putting forth what he considered a "proper imagine" than actually grieving for his son. I can tell you I couldn't do it. Not for a moment and it doesn't have anything to do with NOT believing God gets everything right. I can't understand the ego of some so called "men of God"..... and to even wear such a thing as a "badge of service"?????

I personally know a evangelist that's been preaching almost every week for more than 20 years and his son got killed in a truck accident. Even he didn't have the heart to "preach" the next sermon on his "list". Sometimes things just HURT. We are not super human. Its not about believing God. Its not about having FAITH. Sometimes you just have to let yourself grieve. Wounds often need TIME to heal. I'm SURE he is proud of himself for doing it.

WOW! Not even close.

He preached that sermon as a way to encourage himself and his family. He preached that sermon to minister to his congregation which was also shocked and grief stricken.

As a pastor he placed the needs and grief of others over his own. That's not ego. That's self sacrifice.

I pastored a family who lost their 10 yr old son. They ministered to us. The church was devestated.

Unbelievable assumptions on your part CU.

 

[christundivided]

I wasn't very encouraged when I read the weekend after his 17 year old son got killed in car wreck he preaches "God doesn't make any mistakes".....

Sounds like he was more concerned about putting forth what he considered a "proper imagine" than actually grieving for his son. I can tell you I couldn't do it. Not for a moment and it doesn't have anything to do with NOT believing God gets everything right. I can't understand the ego of some so called "men of God"..... and to even wear such a thing as a "badge of service"?????

I personally know a evangelist that's been preaching almost every week for more than 20 years and his son got killed in a truck accident. Even he didn't have the heart to "preach" the next sermon on his "list". Sometimes things just HURT. We are not super human. Its not about believing God. Its not about having FAITH. Sometimes you just have to let yourself grieve. Wounds often need TIME to heal. I'm SURE he is proud of himself for doing it.

WOW! Not even close.

He preached that sermon as a way to encourage himself and his family. He preached that sermon to minister to his congregation which was also shocked and grief stricken.

As a pastor he placed the needs and grief of others over his own. That's not ego. That's self sacrifice.

I pastored a family who lost their 10 yr old son. They ministered to us. The church was devestated.

Unbelievable assumptions on your part CU.

Is that why you write a book on just how someone should handle such a crisis? Does such a book/sermon encourage "people" to act in the same manner you acted. Obviously you believe the man's actions is a stellar representation of just how a Christian should act when facing a tragedy such as losing your son. I see NO reason to follow such an example. NONE. Obvious it was written to express a proper "action" in dealing with the tragedy. Such "books/sermon" set an unreal expectation that are not required from God. They are nothing more than man-made doctrine/expectations. 

 

[kaba]

No one reacts the same way to tragedy. I personally think how Pastor Wilkerson and his wife reacted is encouraging to me.

 

[christundivided]

No one reacts the same way to tragedy. I personally think how Pastor Wilkerson and his wife reacted is encouraging to me.

Thanks for proving my point. You're encourage to act the same way.

 

[Biker]

He has a challenging position and job ahead of him. It won't be easy.

Well...he has experience. He cleaned up after Mark Chappel's mess who cleaned up after his dad Paul's mess. I'm kind of surprised they went this route as it opens up old IFB scandals in the same church somewhat even though it's certainly not this guy's fault. I do hope he makes good changes. He's still way too fundy in standards for my taste but I didn't get to vote but if they are for the right reasons good on him.

Agreed. Why any church accept a stranger instead of just moving up their own into the position is odd. We are told to judge the fruits, an impossibility if you don't even know the person. Bizarre...

Just curious why any church would seek a pastor from another successful church??? All this competition for the really good men. Makes you wonder what's going on.....

 

[kaba]

No one reacts the same way to tragedy. I personally think how Pastor Wilkerson and his wife reacted is encouraging to me.

Thanks for proving my point. You're encourage to act the same way.

I'm not a puppet, I have a mind of my own. Don't know if you have lost your parents, but I have. Getting through the emptiness you feel is hard, and looking to the Lord and his word is encouraging! I firmly the Lord brings things in our lives to help others. The Wilkersons lost a child, they can help others to live with the tragedy. They lost a child for goodness sake, and you are being nit picky on how they cope with it?  Do you have something against them? God? IFB?

 

[Sherryh]

I've made use of my ignore button it's wonderful

 

[christundivided]

No one reacts the same way to tragedy. I personally think how Pastor Wilkerson and his wife reacted is encouraging to me.

Thanks for proving my point. You're encourage to act the same way.

I'm not a puppet, I have a mind of my own. Don't know if you have lost your parents, but I have. Getting through the emptiness you feel is hard, and looking to the Lord and his word is encouraging! I firmly the Lord brings things in our lives to help others. The Wilkersons lost a child, they can help others to live with the tragedy. They lost a child for goodness sake, and you are being nit picky on how they cope with it?  Do you have something against them? God? IFB?

No. I find it nit picky that a pastor would encourage everyone to act like he did. He is the one setting the standard.

Helping someone to "live with the tragedy" doesn't involve setting a standard for everyone to act the same. All I've done is question that "standard". If you read back through what I've wrote, you will find I've mentioned several instances were people have acted differently. Godly people. People that shouldn't have to question how they themselves handled a similar tragedy. I'm not the one that wrote book about or preached a sermon. Such has made it a part of public record and I have every right to question this "self imposing" standard.

 

[Mathew Ward]

No one reacts the same way to tragedy. I personally think how Pastor Wilkerson and his wife reacted is encouraging to me.

Thanks for proving my point. You're encourage to act the same way.

I'm not a puppet, I have a mind of my own. Don't know if you have lost your parents, but I have. Getting through the emptiness you feel is hard, and looking to the Lord and his word is encouraging! I firmly the Lord brings things in our lives to help others. The Wilkersons lost a child, they can help others to live with the tragedy. They lost a child for goodness sake, and you are being nit picky on how they cope with it?  Do you have something against them? God? IFB?

No. I find it nit picky that a pastor would encourage everyone to act like he did. He is the one setting the standard.

Helping someone to "live with the tragedy" doesn't involve setting a standard for everyone to act the same. All I've done is question that "standard". If you read back through what I've wrote, you will find I've mentioned several instances were people have acted differently. Godly people. People that shouldn't have to question how they themselves handled a similar tragedy. I'm not the one that wrote book about or preached a sermon. Such has made it a part of public record and I have every right to question this "self imposing" standard.

Maybe I missed it but where did he set this standard for everyone to do as he did?

 

[christundivided]

No one reacts the same way to tragedy. I personally think how Pastor Wilkerson and his wife reacted is encouraging to me.

Thanks for proving my point. You're encourage to act the same way.

I'm not a puppet, I have a mind of my own. Don't know if you have lost your parents, but I have. Getting through the emptiness you feel is hard, and looking to the Lord and his word is encouraging! I firmly the Lord brings things in our lives to help others. The Wilkersons lost a child, they can help others to live with the tragedy. They lost a child for goodness sake, and you are being nit picky on how they cope with it?  Do you have something against them? God? IFB?

No. I find it nit picky that a pastor would encourage everyone to act like he did. He is the one setting the standard.

Helping someone to "live with the tragedy" doesn't involve setting a standard for everyone to act the same. All I've done is question that "standard". If you read back through what I've wrote, you will find I've mentioned several instances were people have acted differently. Godly people. People that shouldn't have to question how they themselves handled a similar tragedy. I'm not the one that wrote book about or preached a sermon. Such has made it a part of public record and I have every right to question this "self imposing" standard.

Maybe I missed it but where did he set this standard for everyone to do as he did?

Do you set standards when you preach sermons? Do you set standards when you write books? Do you give the other perspective? Would you mention that good Godly men mourned for 30 days over the death of their children. Would you mention that good Godly men so mourned for their children they "ripped their cloths" and "sat in ashes? or PUBLICLY wished they could DIE IN THEIR children's place? Would you?

Well Wilkerson didn't. He simply told story of how God gave him the grace to HANDLE the situation the way he did. How he wouldn't let the devil get the upperhand by changing one thing they normally would do. His new church is still promoting his grand actions as being proof of his qualifications. I'm sure they are proud.

 

[kaba]

No one reacts the same way to tragedy. I personally think how Pastor Wilkerson and his wife reacted is encouraging to me.

Thanks for proving my point. You're encourage to act the same way.

I'm not a puppet, I have a mind of my own. Don't know if you have lost your parents, but I have. Getting through the emptiness you feel is hard, and looking to the Lord and his word is encouraging! I firmly the Lord brings things in our lives to help others. The Wilkersons lost a child, they can help others to live with the tragedy. They lost a child for goodness sake, and you are being nit picky on how they cope with it?  Do you have something against them? God? IFB?

No. I find it nit picky that a pastor would encourage everyone to act like he did. He is the one setting the standard.

Helping someone to "live with the tragedy" doesn't involve setting a standard for everyone to act the same. All I've done is question that "standard". If you read back through what I've wrote, you will find I've mentioned several instances were people have acted differently. Godly people. People that shouldn't have to question how they themselves handled a similar tragedy. I'm not the one that wrote book about or preached a sermon. Such has made it a part of public record and I have every right to question this "self imposing" standard.

Maybe I missed it but where did he set this standard for everyone to do as he did?

Do you set standards when you preach sermons? Do you set standards when you write books? Do you give the other perspective? Would you mention that good Godly men mourned for 30 days over the death of their children. Would you mention that good Godly men so mourned for their children they "ripped their cloths" and "sat in ashes? or PUBLICLY wished they could DIE IN THEIR children's place? Would you?

Well Wilkerson didn't. He simply told story of how God gave him the grace to HANDLE the situation the way he did. How he wouldn't let the devil get the upperhand by changing one thing they normally would do. His new church is still promoting his grand actions as being proof of his qualifications. I'm sure they are proud.

Not letting the devil dictate how they handle a situation is a good thing. Praising God for helping during a hard time is a good thing. Did everyone in the Bible behave the same way when a relative died? Not at all. The Wilkerson's are a great example of how the Lord gave them Grace through a difficult time.

 

[Mathew Ward]

He simply told story of how God gave him the grace to HANDLE the situation the way he did.

This part is correct.  I don't find where he is setting the standard for others to follow.

 

[samspade]

There may be many things to criticize this pastor for--I don't know anything about him beyond the little I've read in this thread. However, criticizing anyone for how they dealt with the death of a child is in extremely poor taste. Unless one has walked through that experience they have no idea what they would or wouldn't do.

And to criticizing someone for writing a book about their experience seems petty. For most of these authors, the act of writing is a catharsis and serves to aid in the grieving process. Saying "this is what God did for me through that time" is not dictating how others should behave. It's telling one's own story, usually in an effort to gain some clarity and serve as a remembrance.

When the children of Israel were on the exodus, God instructed them to leave stacks of stones in certain places so that they could bring their children back and tell them what He had done for them there. Today we write books, but the idea is the same.