FBCH calls another Jack . . .

[christundivided]

I would not expect a pastor to neglect all duties for 2 months because no one in any other "career" field could do that.  It is customary where I live to be given 3 days for bereavement.  There is no reason to assume that because a man is a pastor that he would be given 58 more days than the other people in the congregation to mourn the death of a loved one without returning to regular duties.

Do you know how silly that is?

For your information.... In my "area", we recently had a mother lose her 17 year old son in a tragic car accident. She took well over 3 months to return. Now, I'm sure she didn't get paid during that time.... but at least my company was willing to give her the space she needed to deal with it.....

and you expect 3 days?

Even the ungodly are more empathic to this women's situation than YOU ARE. What a dose of reality.

However, I would not consider either of the three scenarios that you presented as abnormal.  Each person would have to deal with the situation on an individual basis.  For example two of my co-workers had their father die over the weekend.  One returned to work that Monday and worked the entire week only taking off at noon Friday to prepare for the funeral that Saturday.  The other did not return to work that Monday buried his father on Wednesday and still did not return to work until the next week.  Neither responded wrongly or sought to draw attention to himself.  They simply responded according to their cultural norms and personal preferences.

You contradict yourself. I see... They can take all the time they want but don't expect to have a "job" when you get over it.....

In defense of the brother's book that I have not read and do not intend to read, if God gave him the grace to cope with his grief by continuing in his duties that would be normal from his perspective.  He would be in error if he indicated that his experience should be considered the normal Christian experience.  For him to write from another perspective would be the equivalent of my two oldest sons being able to give a coherent and honest answer to the people that always ask them, "how does it feel to be a twin?"  Like my sons he has no other perspective.  Perhaps the fault lies with those who have turned this into a badge of honor and not with the gentleman who they are attempting to pin the badge on.

So....its just another "Let another lips praise you" kinda of thing? It feels GOOD when someone praises you doesn't it? Makes you believe you actually accomplishing something for God doesn't it? When you get "praised"... you write books and set expectations. God helped me.... so he can help you just the same way.....

Do you remember John 12:43?

Do you believe this brother was proper praised for his actions?

 

[graceandtruth]

I would not expect a pastor to neglect all duties for 2 months because no one in any other "career" field could do that.  It is customary where I live to be given 3 days for bereavement.  There is no reason to assume that because a man is a pastor that he would be given 58 more days than the other people in the congregation to mourn the death of a loved one without returning to regular duties.

Do you know how silly that is?

For your information.... In my "area", we recently had a mother lose her 17 year old son in a tragic car accident. She took well over 3 months to return. Now, I'm sure she didn't get paid during that time.... but at least my company was willing to give her the space she needed to deal with it.....

and you expect 3 days?

Even the ungodly are more empathic to this women's situation than YOU ARE. What a dose of reality.

However, I would not consider either of the three scenarios that you presented as abnormal.  Each person would have to deal with the situation on an individual basis.  For example two of my co-workers had their father die over the weekend.  One returned to work that Monday and worked the entire week only taking off at noon Friday to prepare for the funeral that Saturday.  The other did not return to work that Monday buried his father on Wednesday and still did not return to work until the next week.  Neither responded wrongly or sought to draw attention to himself.  They simply responded according to their cultural norms and personal preferences.

You contradict yourself. I see... They can take all the time they want but don't expect to have a "job" when you get over it.....

In defense of the brother's book that I have not read and do not intend to read, if God gave him the grace to cope with his grief by continuing in his duties that would be normal from his perspective.  He would be in error if he indicated that his experience should be considered the normal Christian experience.  For him to write from another perspective would be the equivalent of my two oldest sons being able to give a coherent and honest answer to the people that always ask them, "how does it feel to be a twin?"  Like my sons he has no other perspective.  Perhaps the fault lies with those who have turned this into a badge of honor and not with the gentleman who they are attempting to pin the badge on.

So....its just another "Let another lips praise you" kinda of thing? It feels GOOD when someone praises you doesn't it? Makes you believe you actually accomplishing something for God doesn't it? When you get "praised"... you write books and set expectations. God helped me.... so he can help you just the same way.....

Do you remember John 12:43?

Do you believe this brother was proper praised for his actions?

The brother is not responsible for someone else's praise of him.  He is not in control of that any more than I am in control of someone's insult or praise of me.

No contradiction.  One gentleman used his vacation time and the other did not.  Simply illustrating to you the fact that people do not all need the same amount of time to return to regular duties.

I know people who have lost family members including children and I do not know of anyone who has taken months off before returning to work.  Since you said a mother took 3 months before returning to work there is no indication that every mother takes 3 months after the death of a child to return to work or that any fathers take 3 months after the death of a child to return to work.  Again your experience cannot be declared the only normal reaction lest someone praise their depth of love and mourning for their loved one above those who do not need one quarter of a year to recover.

As for John 12:43, I am unable to ascertain that the brother loves the praise of men simply because some men are choosing to praise his actions. 

Finally, you asked do I believe the brother was properly praised for his actions.  I cannot make a judgment on that one because I do not know exactly what was said and done in "praise" of the brother and I do not know exactly what he did or didn't do before and after the death of his son. 

Do you remember Proverbs 27:2?  When would this biblical admonition be acceptable or can we assume that since the Holy Spirit did not qualify the statement we cannot apply arbitrary qualifiers either.

For the record, I do not know John and do not really care what happens with FBCH but I sure do care how Christians treat each other, especially in a public forum.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:


CU is a complete moron!!!!


Amen.

FRAG!!!! We agree!!!!!!

I totally agree as well....now THAT will ruin Frag's...and BALAAM's...reputation in IFB circles......

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=graceandtruth]For the record, I do not know John and do not really care what happens with FBCH but I sure do care how Christians treat each other, especially in a public forum.[/quote]

*nods*

 

[christundivided]

The brother is not responsible for someone else's praise of him.  He is not in control of that any more than I am in control of someone's insult or praise of me.

What a lame excuse? Does a "pastor" have control over it? Could a "pastor" tell his congregation to stop "praising" him for something. I know it can happen. I've seen it happen first hand. Obviously you wouldn't do the same.

I take it you like "pastor appreciation day"? How about "member appreciation day"?

No contradiction.  One gentleman used his vacation time and the other did not.  Simply illustrating to you the fact that people do not all need the same amount of time to return to regular duties.

I doubt you know that the man took personal time. Did he tell you or are you in HR? Sure it was a contradiction.

I know people who have lost family members including children and I do not know of anyone who has taken months off before returning to work.  Since you said a mother took 3 months before returning to work there is no indication that every mother takes 3 months after the death of a child to return to work or that any fathers take 3 months after the death of a child to return to work.  Again your experience cannot be declared the only normal reaction lest someone praise their depth of love and mourning for their loved one above those who do not need one quarter of a year to recover.

I never said it was a normal reaction and I didn't PRAISE HER. There wasn't a book written about her experience and there isn't ANYONE posting about it to show how "SPIRITUAL" she is to pastor a church. It took what it took for her. I'm glad she found peace no matter the time it took for her to get there.

You sure have gone out your way.... to say you don't know anyone that has taken "3 months" to return to work. Do you consider this to be "abnormal"? Sounds like it to me. Why not come and just say it.

As for John 12:43, I am unable to ascertain that the brother loves the praise of men simply because some men are choosing to praise his actions. 

Its not just some men. Its FBCH praising him.

Sure you can. How did FBCH find out about it? Did they read about in a self published book? Did it factor into them HIRING HIM?

Finally, you asked do I believe the brother was properly praised for his actions.  I cannot make a judgment on that one because I do not know exactly what was said and done in "praise" of the brother and I do not know exactly what he did or didn't do before and after the death of his son. 

So you don't know and yet you're choosing to discuss it anyway? Personally, I'd be ashamed of myself for actually acting like I could honestly discuss it.

Do you remember Proverbs 27:2?  When would this biblical admonition be acceptable or can we assume that since the Holy Spirit did not qualify the statement we cannot apply arbitrary qualifiers either.

Did you read that "stranger part" in Proverbs 27:2? Does it make any sense to you now? Strangers have no part in seeking to promote someone they DON'T KNOW. Get it?

When your "church" or "friends" praise you..... they just might have other motives. Get it? That's what Proverbs 27:2 is teaching.

For the record, I do not know John and do not really care what happens with FBCH but I sure do care how Christians treat each other, especially in a public forum.

Oh really? You do?

The women I mentioned that was out of work for 3 months.... How are you treating her? Do you consider her to have been a failure at Grace? Should I tell her that "3 days" is the standard for the average workplace and how she should be grateful she has a job???

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=graceandtruth]For the record, I do not know John and do not really care what happens with FBCH but I sure do care how Christians treat each other, especially in a public forum.

*nods*
[/quote]

Is that your real beef? I've seen you be pretty hard on some people. Did you go over board?

 

[christundivided]

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:


CU is a complete moron!!!!


Amen.

FRAG!!!! We agree!!!!!!

I totally agree as well....now THAT will ruin Frag's...and BALAAM's...reputation in IFB circles......

I've used the word "moron" many times in my life. Yet, I don't think I've ever called you a moron. Can you remind me if I did?

 

[graceandtruth]

The brother is not responsible for someone else's praise of him.  He is not in control of that any more than I am in control of someone's insult or praise of me.

What a lame excuse? Does a "pastor" have control over it? Could a "pastor" tell his congregation to stop "praising" him for something. I know it can happen. I've seen it happen first hand. Obviously you wouldn't do the same.

I take it you like "pastor appreciation day"? How about "member appreciation day"?

No contradiction.  One gentleman used his vacation time and the other did not.  Simply illustrating to you the fact that people do not all need the same amount of time to return to regular duties.

I doubt you know that the man took personal time. Did he tell you or are you in HR? Sure it was a contradiction.

I know people who have lost family members including children and I do not know of anyone who has taken months off before returning to work.  Since you said a mother took 3 months before returning to work there is no indication that every mother takes 3 months after the death of a child to return to work or that any fathers take 3 months after the death of a child to return to work.  Again your experience cannot be declared the only normal reaction lest someone praise their depth of love and mourning for their loved one above those who do not need one quarter of a year to recover.

I never said it was a normal reaction and I didn't PRAISE HER. There wasn't a book written about her experience and there isn't ANYONE posting about it to show how "SPIRITUAL" she is to pastor a church. It took what it took for her. I'm glad she found peace no matter the time it took for her to get there.

You sure have gone out your way.... to say you don't know anyone that has taken "3 months" to return to work. Do you consider this to be "abnormal"? Sounds like it to me. Why not come and just say it.

As for John 12:43, I am unable to ascertain that the brother loves the praise of men simply because some men are choosing to praise his actions. 

Its not just some men. Its FBCH praising him.

Sure you can. How did FBCH find out about it? Did they read about in a self published book? Did it factor into them HIRING HIM?

Finally, you asked do I believe the brother was properly praised for his actions.  I cannot make a judgment on that one because I do not know exactly what was said and done in "praise" of the brother and I do not know exactly what he did or didn't do before and after the death of his son. 

So you don't know and yet you're choosing to discuss it anyway? Personally, I'd be ashamed of myself for actually acting like I could honestly discuss it.

Do you remember Proverbs 27:2?  When would this biblical admonition be acceptable or can we assume that since the Holy Spirit did not qualify the statement we cannot apply arbitrary qualifiers either.

Did you read that "stranger part" in Proverbs 27:2? Does it make any sense to you now? Strangers have no part in seeking to promote someone they DON'T KNOW. Get it?

When your "church" or "friends" praise you..... they just might have other motives. Get it? That's what Proverbs 27:2 is teaching.

For the record, I do not know John and do not really care what happens with FBCH but I sure do care how Christians treat each other, especially in a public forum.

Oh really? You do?

The women I mentioned that was out of work for 3 months.... How are you treating her? Do you consider her to have been a failure at Grace? Should I tell her that "3 days" is the standard for the average workplace and how she should be grateful she has a job???

WOW!!!  Your ability to discern other people's motives is uncanny.

Talk about contradictions!  Your first statement about a pastor telling "his" congregation to stop praising him and them having to obey is a total contradiction of your whole problem with the cult-like authority that IFB pastors exercise over the congregation.

As for the woman that took off from work for 3 months, I do not consider her or anyone else to be a failure at grace because I do not know what measure of grace she was given or what measure of grace it took for her to return after 3 months.

Proverbs 27:2 does not say anything about friends, family, or members of the congregation not being able to praise another person in a congregation.  It is clearly saying a person is not to praise themselves and that is all the text says.  Sorry I have to go with what the text says not what it might say if the Holy Spirit thought like me.

No I can actually discuss situations that I am not personally involved in.  I doubt seriously that everyone that has commented on this thread knows John personally (not just of him) and attends FBCH.  So we are all working with limited and incomplete data without shame.

I don't think FBCH can praise anyone.  People praise people so we are back to the praises of men.

I do know that the man took personal time because I am personal friends with both gentlemen.

We do not as a congregation observe pastor anything.  We do seek to encourage each other no matter where we are spiritually.  This is part of our effort to provoke each other to love and good works.  We have no heroes, not even in Scripture, only disciples of Christ and people for whom Christ has died.

For the record, I would not think that a person that took 1 year to recover from the death of a good friend or 1 day to recover from the death of a child has failed at grace or acted abnormally.  I would assume that is how God is working in them to deal with the situation.  I realize God has made each of us unique and yet in His image and uses and comforts and equips us differently.

 

[BALAAM]

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:


CU is a complete moron!!!!


Amen.

FRAG!!!! We agree!!!!!!

I totally agree as well....now THAT will ruin Frag's...and BALAAM's...reputation in IFB circles......

Ahem! I am no longer in ifb circles.

 

[prophet]

I Thess. 4:13 I would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Which part of 'sorrow not' can't you comprehend?

Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Matthew1323]

graceandtruth said:

I would not expect a pastor to neglect all duties for 2 months because no one in any other "career" field could do that.  It is customary where I live to be given 3 days for bereavement.  There is no reason to assume that because a man is a pastor that he would be given 58 more days than the other people in the congregation to mourn the death of a loved one without returning to regular duties.

Perhaps the fault lies with those who have turned this into a badge of honor and not with the gentleman who they are attempting to pin the badge on.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The above sums it up for me too.

 

[christundivided]

I Thess. 4:13 I would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Which part of 'sorrow not' can't you comprehend?

Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

I'm glad you mentioned that. Finally someone who actually will come out and say Christians shouldn't have sorrow when their loved ones die. Thanks for being honest. Everyone else's just wouldn't have the guts to admit they believe such.

What part of "as others who have no hope" don't you understand?

The verse does not say to not have sorrow. We are not to sorrow as those who have no hope.

Do you have sorrow for missing anyone that has gone on before you? Any at all? Those that grieve for loved ones are not giving up hope of the resurrection. They simply miss their loved one. Knowing you have the rest of your life to wait to see them again sure does make one's heart heavy?

Do you have empathy for such people?

 

[Ransom]

Alrighty, I wanted some information about this Jack Wilkinson character, and thanks to CU, I now know that he preached after his son died, and therefore he's a worse version of Hitler.

Great. Anyone with something substantial to add?

 

[BALAAM]

Alrighty, I wanted some information about this Jack Wilkinson character, and thanks to CU, I now know that he preached after his son died, and therefore he's a worse version of Hitler.

Great. Anyone with something substantial to add?

No. And I have learned that you can't argue with stupid. (CU)

 

[christundivided]

Alrighty, I wanted some information about this Jack Wilkinson character, and thanks to CU, I now know that he preached after his son died, and therefore he's a worse version of Hitler.

Great. Anyone with something substantial to add?

Do a Google Book search for "God makes no mistakes" by Wilkerson.

I had NO problem with him preaching after his son's death. I have a problem with him getting praised for it.... as if it was the right example for Christians to do.

I also have a problem with HIM writing a book that sets forth that example as being the Grace of God for Christians.

I've never compared him to Hitler... "Ransom"....

nor have I compared him to the forums resident "Canadian". I wouldn't do that to the man....

Just wanted you to know that God foreordained me to write that before the foundation of the world....just for you... you little Calvinist you....

 

[christundivided]

Alrighty, I wanted some information about this Jack Wilkinson character, and thanks to CU, I now know that he preached after his son died, and therefore he's a worse version of Hitler.

Great. Anyone with something substantial to add?

No. And I have learned that you can't argue with stupid. (CU)

Ah.... we all know that ain't true. We know you're always arguing with yourself!!!!!

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]Should I tell her that "3 days" is the standard for the average workplace and how she should be grateful she has a job???[/quote]

Tell her it is standard? Sure...if she asks. I wouldn't bring it up. (BTW: It is a pretty typical bereavement allowance.)

Tell her she should be grateful she has a job? Definitely not in this context.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=graceandtruth]For the record, I do not know John and do not really care what happens with FBCH but I sure do care how Christians treat each other, especially in a public forum.

*nods*

Is that your real beef? I've seen you be pretty hard on some people. Did you go over board?
[/quote]

You've seen me be pretty hard on ideas, not people.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Alrighty, I wanted some information about this Jack Wilkinson character, and thanks to CU, I now know that he preached after his son died, and therefore he's a worse version of Hitler.

Great. Anyone with something substantial to add?

Do a Google Book search for "God makes no mistakes" by Wilkerson.

I had NO problem with him preaching after his son's death. I have a problem with him getting praised for it.... as if it was the right example for Christians to do.

I also have a problem with HIM writing a book that sets forth that example as being the Grace of God for Christians.

I've never compared him to Hitler... "Ransom"....

nor have I compared him to the forums resident "Canadian". I wouldn't do that to the man....

Just wanted you to know that God foreordained me to write that before the foundation of the world....just for you... you little Calvinist you....

I asked him and he said he has no problem with you....or the sermons you preach....or when you preach them! As long as he doesn't have to hear them. I say Amen to that!

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=graceandtruth]For the record, I do not know John and do not really care what happens with FBCH but I sure do care how Christians treat each other, especially in a public forum.

*nods*

Is that your real beef? I've seen you be pretty hard on some people. Did you go over board?

You've seen me be pretty hard on ideas, not people.
[/quote]

Not all the time.

You have to admit that ideas are intricately tied to individuals.

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: