Music in Ministry

[christundivided]

Racism is disgusting.  End of story.

I don't understand how preferring songs where the melody and words are the emphasis rather than the beat and rhythm being the emphasis is somehow perceived as racist.  I have stated repeatedly that I do not want my songs of worship to have a sound that is associated with music that accompanies sin and vice (words of the song and actions of people playing the music).  I don't think which stereotype of sub-culture usually listens to the music has anything to do with it.  I can enjoy Christian music from various styles and cultural backgrounds.  I believe that music in church should have a higher standard because there are multiple people from various backgrounds that may be easily offended and we do not want to offend our brother.  However, I do believe there are genres that should be avoided because of associations.  I also believe that certain styles should be avoided because of the musical principles apparent in the songs themselves.  Not being a musician, I have a hard time defining this, other than my preference, which I have learned is not always the best determiner of right/wrong.  When a song has a sound to it that causes me to be reminded of cultures associated with sin and vice, I turn it off or don't want to include it in worship.  When the rhythm and beat is emphasized rather than the melody, I believe it is in contrast to Eph 5 and do not want it included in worship.

I am a very right/wrong kind of guy.  I have recently attended some churches who have opened up their stance on music and am opening up for discussion as to why I should change my stand.  I want more than "it reminds me of...." because this is very subjective. 

So far, the basic response has been the belief that music itself is amoral and therefore no music should be rejected.  This is an opinion that I reject, though others hold it firmly. 

The other part to this has been "Just because it reminds you of sin, doesn't mean it reminds me of sin.  So, get over it and enjoy."  I will give some credence to this, but surely there is a line of separation that must be drawn if we really do want to "Come out from among them and be ye separate."  Where is that line?

I refuse to accept the "if you are conservative in music you are racist" card.  That holds no water with me.

I don't think anyone made that comparison here. Someone just showed that some peoples in history has associated various music "styles" with what they considered to be bad "cultures". It the old argument of ....If you do not like the "culture", then you should not like their music.

It is interesting to note, that its pretty common knowledge that "Amazing Grace" is based on an old African slave melody.

 

[samspade]

I completely agree that it is a wonderful thing when a wide variety of ethnicities call one church home. I also completely agree that this is a tremendous and growing problem for the IFB movement. I completely disagree that the music has to be likewise widely varied in order to do so. IMHO and experience, it isn't a matter of music. It is a matter of where your church is located, what kind of 'vibe' you give off, how you incorporate ethnicities in public service opportunities, and most of all, where/how you do your outreach/evangelism.

I don't disagree with most of what you've said here. And I applaud your work in establishing a diverse church that reflects the society around you. However, if you define acceptable music by your cultural standards, you are wrong. There is acceptable music from Africa, Asia, the Caribbean and the rest of the world. The truth is that a lot of it doesn't do much for me. But I see people around me for whom it has meaning, and they have as much right to worship as I do.

The point of music in church is to allow us to praise God and focus our hearts and minds on Christ as we prepare for God to speak to us through the exposition of His word. Anything else is inappropriate music, no matter what the style. And if having the occasional Jamaican song with a reggae beat helps my fellow congregants from the islands experience that, it would be selfish of me to deny them that.

If all of your music is American hymns and choruses (or CCM praise & worship), you need to look closely at whether you're defining your music by what is acceptable for worship or defining what is acceptable for worship by your own preferences and trying to put a Godly face on it. (Not saying that you, Tom Brennan, are doing this, because I don't have any idea). My point is, it's dangerous to make a dogmatic principle about something that is subjective at its core.

 

[Izdaari]

My point is, it's dangerous to make a dogmatic principle about something that is subjective at its core.

Yep, that's it! :-*

 

[Just John]

I refuse to accept the "if you are conservative in music you are racist" card.  That holds no water with me.

That is the absolute anti-thesis of what I claim. It was clearly inferred here that rock n roll"s rhythm was patterned after people who "ran around naked", "ate people" and "were controlled by spirits".  THAT is a racist comment and not correct. I don't think because you have a conservative standard in music you are a racist. That's silly. But I do think if it's predicated on that type of nonsense than yes, it's racist.

 

[Fresh Air]

I don't disagree with most of what you've said here. And I applaud your work in establishing a diverse church that reflects the society around you. However, if you define acceptable music by your cultural standards, you are wrong. There is acceptable music from Africa, Asia, the Caribbean and the rest of the world. The truth is that a lot of it doesn't do much for me. But I see people around me for whom it has meaning, and they have as much right to worship as I do.

The point of music in church is to allow us to praise God and focus our hearts and minds on Christ as we prepare for God to speak to us through the exposition of His word. Anything else is inappropriate music, no matter what the style. And if having the occasional Jamaican song with a reggae beat helps my fellow congregants from the islands experience that, it would be selfish of me to deny them that.

If all of your music is American hymns and choruses (or CCM praise & worship), you need to look closely at whether you're defining your music by what is acceptable for worship or defining what is acceptable for worship by your own preferences and trying to put a Godly face on it. (Not saying that you, Tom Brennan, are doing this, because I don't have any idea). My point is, it's dangerous to make a dogmatic principle about something that is subjective at its core.

I've always enjoyed talking to you...

You make a big (what I think is an) assumption here. You are assuming/implying that the purpose of music in a church service is worship, and that assumption helps color your response. Can you establish that from the New Testament?

 

[Just John]

I don't disagree with most of what you've said here. And I applaud your work in establishing a diverse church that reflects the society around you. However, if you define acceptable music by your cultural standards, you are wrong. There is acceptable music from Africa, Asia, the Caribbean and the rest of the world. The truth is that a lot of it doesn't do much for me. But I see people around me for whom it has meaning, and they have as much right to worship as I do.

The point of music in church is to allow us to praise God and focus our hearts and minds on Christ as we prepare for God to speak to us through the exposition of His word. Anything else is inappropriate music, no matter what the style. And if having the occasional Jamaican song with a reggae beat helps my fellow congregants from the islands experience that, it would be selfish of me to deny them that.

If all of your music is American hymns and choruses (or CCM praise & worship), you need to look closely at whether you're defining your music by what is acceptable for worship or defining what is acceptable for worship by your own preferences and trying to put a Godly face on it. (Not saying that you, Tom Brennan, are doing this, because I don't have any idea). My point is, it's dangerous to make a dogmatic principle about something that is subjective at its core.

I've always enjoyed talking to you...

You make a big (what I think is an) assumption here. You are assuming/implying that the purpose of music in a church service is worship, and that assumption helps color your response. Can you establish that from the New Testament?

Hi Tom...

From your viewpoint would verses in Leviticus and even more so Psalms not be instructive because they wouldn't be from "the NT church"? Just wondering. It would lead to even more interesting discussions.

 

[Fresh Air]

Hi Tom...

From your viewpoint would verses in Leviticus and even more so Psalms not be instructive because they wouldn't be from "the NT church"? Just wondering. It would lead to even more interesting discussions.

I think using the OT to inform our concept of what God wants in relation to music is completely valid. I think using the OT to inform our concept of what a church service is for, how it should be structured, and what its philosophical underpinnings are is extremely problematic.

 

[prophet]

If the people who you learned your rhythm pattern from were naked, eating each other, and controlled by spirits....you may have a problem.

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Is this the same "jungle-beat" argument from the Jim Crow 1950's? 

My statement stands alone.

Did I use the word jungle?  My ancestors did the same sins I described earlier.  Music is a teaching vehicle, and a Shaman is using it to teach Idolatry, and witchcraft.
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[prophet]

If the people who you learned your rhythm pattern from were naked, eating each other, and controlled by spirits....you may have a problem.

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Is this the same "jungle-beat" argument from the Jim Crow 1950's? 

My statement stands alone.

:

Great summation of Prophet's post. 

What if the people you learned your rhythm pattern from where naked, worshiping the druid gods, and drinking each other's blood?  Does that qualify as unacceptable?

Or

What if the people you learned your rhythm patterns from were naked, sacrificing their children to their gods, and controlled by spirits like the Syrians?  Does that disqualify Abraham and his descendants who would have learned their rhythms in that environment? 

yes, yes.

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[prophet]

I refuse to accept the "if you are conservative in music you are racist" card.  That holds no water with me.

That is the absolute anti-thesis of what I claim. It was clearly inferred here that rock n roll"s rhythm was patterned after people who "ran around naked", "ate people" and "were controlled by spirits".  THAT is a racist comment and not correct. I don't think because you have a conservative standard in music you are a racist. That's silly. But I do think if it's predicated on that type of nonsense than yes, it's racist.

I brought up naked, eating people, and controlled by spirits.  I did not mention a music genre.  I did not mention an ethnicity.  I made a stand alone statement, so quit lumping it in with 'black',  or 'rock'  I said neither.
You called my remarks racist.  I mentioned no race.  How did you determine them to be racial at all?  Every nation under Heaven has run after false gods, every kindred, every tribe. 
Now let's walk this in from the perimeter, shall we?
  Question: Is there a such thing as Idolatry?
  Are Christians supposed to avoid things sacrificed by idolators?
  Is music ever used in ritualistic spirit-worship?

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[rsc2a]

[quote author=prophet]Now let's walk this in from the perimeter, shall we?

Question: Is there a such thing as Idolatry?[/quote]

Yes.

[quote author=prophet]Are Christians supposed to avoid things sacrificed by idolators?[/quote]

"It depends." - Paul (a paraphrase)

[quote author=prophet]Is music ever used in ritualistic spirit-worship?[/quote]

Yes.

 

[Just John]

I refuse to accept the "if you are conservative in music you are racist" card.  That holds no water with me.

That is the absolute anti-thesis of what I claim. It was clearly inferred here that rock n roll"s rhythm was patterned after people who "ran around naked", "ate people" and "were controlled by spirits".  THAT is a racist comment and not correct. I don't think because you have a conservative standard in music you are a racist. That's silly. But I do think if it's predicated on that type of nonsense than yes, it's racist.

I brought up naked, eating people, and controlled by spirits.  I did not mention a music genre.  I did not mention an ethnicity.  I made a stand alone statement, so quit lumping it in with 'black',  or 'rock'  I said neither.
You called my remarks racist.  I mentioned no race.  How did you determine them to be racial at all?  Every nation under Heaven has run after false gods, every kindred, every tribe.

I have nothing against you personally but just WHO did you mean when you said "rhythym" from people "running around naked, eating people and controlled by spirits"?  Your denial is quite hollow. Have the guts to stand up for what seems to be quite evident of what you believe. You clearly had a chance to better define your statement earlier but chose to be coy. 

 

[rsc2a]

Hi Tom...

From your viewpoint would verses in Leviticus and even more so Psalms not be instructive because they wouldn't be from "the NT church"? Just wondering. It would lead to even more interesting discussions.

I think using the OT to inform our concept of what God wants in relation to music is completely valid. I think using the OT to inform our concept of what a church service is for, how it should be structured, and what its philosophical underpinnings are is extremely problematic.

Marcionism is alive and well in today's churches.

 

[Just John]

Hi Tom...

From your viewpoint would verses in Leviticus and even more so Psalms not be instructive because they wouldn't be from "the NT church"? Just wondering. It would lead to even more interesting discussions.

I think using the OT to inform our concept of what God wants in relation to music is completely valid. I think using the OT to inform our concept of what a church service is for, how it should be structured, and what its philosophical underpinnings are is extremely problematic.

Understanding you may not agree I nonetheless offer the following two chapters from Psalms for discussion:

Psalm 149
New Living Translation


1 Praise the Lord!

Sing to the Lord a new song.
  Sing his praises in the assembly of the faithful.

2 O Israel, rejoice in your Maker.
    O people of Jerusalem,[a] exult in your King.
3 Praise his name with dancing,
    accompanied by tambourine and harp.
4 For the Lord delights in his people;
    he crowns the humble with victory.
5 Let the faithful rejoice that he honors them.
    Let them sing for joy as they lie on their beds.

6 Let the praises of God be in their mouths,
    and a sharp sword in their hands—
7 to execute vengeance on the nations
    and punishment on the peoples,
8 to bind their kings with shackles
    and their leaders with iron chains,
9 to execute the judgment written against them.
    This is the glorious privilege of his faithful ones.

Praise the Lord!


Psalm 150
New Living Translation

1 Praise the Lord!

Praise God in his sanctuary;
    praise him in his mighty heaven!
2 Praise him for his mighty works;
    praise his unequaled greatness!
3 Praise him with a blast of the ram’s horn;
    praise him with the lyre and harp!
4 Praise him with the tambourine and dancing;
    praise him with strings and flutes!
5 Praise him with a clash of cymbals;
    praise him with loud clanging cymbals.
6 Let everything that breathes sing praises to the Lord!

Praise the Lord!

I would not see a compelling reason why this should be different in the OT "assembly of the faithful" than the NT church. I am admittedly not a biblical scholar like some here and am open to biblical prescription. (Likely most see the last half of chapter 149 differently today.)

 

[prophet]

I refuse to accept the "if you are conservative in music you are racist" card.  That holds no water with me.

That is the absolute anti-thesis of what I claim. It was clearly inferred here that rock n roll"s rhythm was patterned after people who "ran around naked", "ate people" and "were controlled by spirits".  THAT is a racist comment and not correct. I don't think because you have a conservative standard in music you are a racist. That's silly. But I do think if it's predicated on that type of nonsense than yes, it's racist.

I brought up naked, eating people, and controlled by spirits.  I did not mention a music genre.  I did not mention an ethnicity.  I made a stand alone statement, so quit lumping it in with 'black',  or 'rock'  I said neither.
You called my remarks racist.  I mentioned no race.  How did you determine them to be racial at all?  Every nation under Heaven has run after false gods, every kindred, every tribe.

I have nothing against you personally but just WHO did you mean when you said "rhythym" from people "running around naked, eating people and controlled by spirits"?  Your denial is quite hollow. Have the guts to stand up for what seems to be quite evident of what you believe. You clearly had a chance to better define your statement earlier but chose to be coy.

I meant what I said.  I am Cherokee. My people  believe that the spirits come into the drum, and possess those who hear it.  Am I to ignore that?  Do I go hang myself from hooks for 3 days and 3 nights, in the 'sundance' to signify substitutional sacrifice?  Do I drum til a trance comes on me, and my 'ancestors' (deceitful spirits) speak through me?  Do I wait for the 8th Grandfather, nana boozhoo, to come (the man of sin), and restore our lands?  No.  I trust the shed blood of Jesus, my sacrifice.  I yield to God's Holy Spirit, not the lesser spirits, and ask Him to order my steps in His  Will.  I wait for the return of the Lamb, who will destroy nana boozhoo at the brightness of his coming!

If a man runs past me, naked, eating his neighbor, and speaking in 3 different voices...I'm not gonna ask him for his playlist faves, sorry.

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[Just John]

I refuse to accept the "if you are conservative in music you are racist" card.  That holds no water with me.

That is the absolute anti-thesis of what I claim. It was clearly inferred here that rock n roll"s rhythm was patterned after people who "ran around naked", "ate people" and "were controlled by spirits".  THAT is a racist comment and not correct. I don't think because you have a conservative standard in music you are a racist. That's silly. But I do think if it's predicated on that type of nonsense than yes, it's racist.

I brought up naked, eating people, and controlled by spirits.  I did not mention a music genre.  I did not mention an ethnicity.  I made a stand alone statement, so quit lumping it in with 'black',  or 'rock'  I said neither.
You called my remarks racist.  I mentioned no race.  How did you determine them to be racial at all?  Every nation under Heaven has run after false gods, every kindred, every tribe.

I have nothing against you personally but just WHO did you mean when you said "rhythym" from people "running around naked, eating people and controlled by spirits"?  Your denial is quite hollow. Have the guts to stand up for what seems to be quite evident of what you believe. You clearly had a chance to better define your statement earlier but chose to be coy.

I meant what I said.  I am Cherokee. My people  believe that the spirits come into the drum, and possess those who hear it.  Am I to ignore that?  Do I go hang myself from hooks for 3 days and 3 nights, in the 'sundance' to signify substitutional sacrifice?  Do I drum til a trance comes on me, and my 'ancestors' (deceitful spirits) speak through me?  Do I wait for the 8th Grandfather, nana boozhoo, to come (the man of sin), and restore our lands?  No.  I trust the shed blood of Jesus, my sacrifice.  I yield to God's Holy Spirit, not the lesser spirits, and ask Him to order my steps in His  Will.  I wait for the return of the Lamb, who will destroy nana boozhoo at the brightness of his coming!

If a man runs past me, naked, eating his neighbor, and speaking in 3 different voices...I'm not gonna ask him for his playlist faves, sorry.

Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

Yeah, cuz Cherokees are the FIRST thing I think of as a group stereotyped as "naked", "eating people" and "controlled by spirits" AS IT RELATES TO RHYTHM in a discussion about types of music on a Christian board.  :

 

[Izdaari]

I refuse to accept the "if you are conservative in music you are racist" card.  That holds no water with me.

That is the absolute anti-thesis of what I claim. It was clearly inferred here that rock n roll"s rhythm was patterned after people who "ran around naked", "ate people" and "were controlled by spirits".  THAT is a racist comment and not correct. I don't think because you have a conservative standard in music you are a racist. That's silly. But I do think if it's predicated on that type of nonsense than yes, it's racist.

I brought up naked, eating people, and controlled by spirits.  I did not mention a music genre.  I did not mention an ethnicity.  I made a stand alone statement, so quit lumping it in with 'black',  or 'rock'  I said neither.
You called my remarks racist.  I mentioned no race.  How did you determine them to be racial at all?  Every nation under Heaven has run after false gods, every kindred, every tribe.

I have nothing against you personally but just WHO did you mean when you said "rhythym" from people "running around naked, eating people and controlled by spirits"?  Your denial is quite hollow. Have the guts to stand up for what seems to be quite evident of what you believe. You clearly had a chance to better define your statement earlier but chose to be coy.

I meant what I said.  I am Cherokee. My people  believe that the spirits come into the drum, and possess those who hear it.  Am I to ignore that?  Do I go hang myself from hooks for 3 days and 3 nights, in the 'sundance' to signify substitutional sacrifice?  Do I drum til a trance comes on me, and my 'ancestors' (deceitful spirits) speak through me?  Do I wait for the 8th Grandfather, nana boozhoo, to come (the man of sin), and restore our lands?  No.  I trust the shed blood of Jesus, my sacrifice.  I yield to God's Holy Spirit, not the lesser spirits, and ask Him to order my steps in His  Will.  I wait for the return of the Lamb, who will destroy nana boozhoo at the brightness of his coming!

If a man runs past me, naked, eating his neighbor, and speaking in 3 different voices...I'm not gonna ask him for his playlist faves, sorry.

Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

I can relate. I have ancestors from four different continents. Some of them believed things just as crazy as those. Yet they also have history, traditions, culture and folklore that I value. And music too, not all of which is suitable for worship of course, but some of it is worth listening to.

 

[qwerty]

To prophet may or may not be Elizabeth Warren. )

 

[samspade]

Hi Tom...

From your viewpoint would verses in Leviticus and even more so Psalms not be instructive because they wouldn't be from "the NT church"? Just wondering. It would lead to even more interesting discussions.

I think using the OT to inform our concept of what God wants in relation to music is completely valid. I think using the OT to inform our concept of what a church service is for, how it should be structured, and what its philosophical underpinnings are is extremely problematic.

Why is it OK to use the OT to define music, but not worship? (and thanks for the kind words, Tom)

To make clear, I'm not saying that there isn't acceptable/not acceptable music for a church service. I disagree with the criteria you are using to define what that is. But it appears we may not even agree on what a church service is for.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I refuse to accept the "if you are conservative in music you are racist" card.  That holds no water with me.

That is the absolute anti-thesis of what I claim. It was clearly inferred here that rock n roll"s rhythm was patterned after people who "ran around naked", "ate people" and "were controlled by spirits".  THAT is a racist comment and not correct. I don't think because you have a conservative standard in music you are a racist. That's silly. But I do think if it's predicated on that type of nonsense than yes, it's racist.

I brought up naked, eating people, and controlled by spirits.  I did not mention a music genre.  I did not mention an ethnicity.  I made a stand alone statement, so quit lumping it in with 'black',  or 'rock'  I said neither.
You called my remarks racist.  I mentioned no race.  How did you determine them to be racial at all?  Every nation under Heaven has run after false gods, every kindred, every tribe.

I have nothing against you personally but just WHO did you mean when you said "rhythym" from people "running around naked, eating people and controlled by spirits"?  Your denial is quite hollow. Have the guts to stand up for what seems to be quite evident of what you believe. You clearly had a chance to better define your statement earlier but chose to be coy.

I meant what I said.  I am Cherokee. My people  believe that the spirits come into the drum, and possess those who hear it.  Am I to ignore that?  Do I go hang myself from hooks for 3 days and 3 nights, in the 'sundance' to signify substitutional sacrifice?  Do I drum til a trance comes on me, and my 'ancestors' (deceitful spirits) speak through me?  Do I wait for the 8th Grandfather, nana boozhoo, to come (the man of sin), and restore our lands?  No.  I trust the shed blood of Jesus, my sacrifice.  I yield to God's Holy Spirit, not the lesser spirits, and ask Him to order my steps in His  Will.  I wait for the return of the Lamb, who will destroy nana boozhoo at the brightness of his coming!

If a man runs past me, naked, eating his neighbor, and speaking in 3 different voices...I'm not gonna ask him for his playlist faves, sorry.

Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

Yeah, cuz Cherokees are the FIRST thing I think of as a group stereotyped as "naked", "eating people" and "controlled by spirits" AS IT RELATES TO RHYTHM in a discussion about types of music on a Christian board.  :

Maybe because the first and only group you can consider as naked cannibals controlled by spirits are Africans, YOU are racist.   Even a poor student of history can tell you that those are characteristics of a wide array of peoples from all over the world at one point or another.