Music in Ministry

[christundivided]

Maybe because the first and only group you can consider as naked cannibals controlled by spirits are Africans, YOU are racist.   Even a poor student of history can tell you that those are characteristics of a wide array of peoples from all over the world at one point or another.

Maybe you could name some of them? Can you detail the ethnic make up of these "wide array of peoples from all over the world"?

 

[prophet]

Why is it that the knee-jerk reaction to noticing idolatry, is that the one who noticed must be racist?  Ethiopia was a Christian nation for 2,000 years, unoccupied by foreign forces, until 1939, when the Axis powers invaded.  They were then led  away by the error of Rastafani, but still many churches remain.  Egypt has its Coptics, from Origen at Alexandria, until now, with Sam Thomas. 
These examples just illustrate that pagan savagery isn't race wide, or continent wide, on Africa or any other.

Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[prophet]

Now, you want to see Satanically controlled paganism?  Go around to the Inuit villages (there are no roads, so be prepared to take the rivers, or fly a single engine plane).
Or go to the Whale people, in Washington state.
Or study the history of the Commanchees.
Even some Iriquois.
Try the Seminoles.
Try the Druids.
Try the Celts.
Try the Samoans.
Try the Mongols.
Try the Mung.
Try the Filipino Negritos
Try the Germanic Barbarians
Try Jeffrey Dahmer in Milwaukee, WI.
Get back to me with your report, please.

Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[T-Bone]

One the elder ladies in our church many years ago said..." I like music, but if the intent is to move your feet before it moves your heart, then something is wrong."

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Maybe because the first and only group you can consider as naked cannibals controlled by spirits are Africans, YOU are racist.   Even a poor student of history can tell you that those are characteristics of a wide array of peoples from all over the world at one point or another.

Maybe you could name some of them? Can you detail the ethnic make up of these "wide array of peoples from all over the world"?

Really???  You think that the only civilizations in history that have been influenced by idolatry and paganism and demonic influence are those with a skin tone that happens to be darker than others????

That is either a very racist or a very ignorant viewpoint. 

 

[graceandtruth]

I would like to make a few observations that drive my decision making in this area and may be helpful to others.

ALL music for the worship of God or for entertainment has its roots in paganism.  Abraham was a Syrian.
ALL music used by Israel was constantly subjected to pagan influences:  Egyptian bondage, Assyrian bondage, Babylonian bondage, Persian bondage, etc.
ALL music is a product of cultures that are dominated by non-Christian influences be they Greek, Druid, Asian, African, Caribbean, Native American, Hispanic, etc.


I also believe that Israel in the OT is just a snapshot of God's dealing with humanity.  They are used to show that God desires to have a group of people that worship and serve Him.  This has nothing to do with ethnicity or culture because the strangers were always welcomed into the worship of God.  With that said...... I do not believe we have warrant to use narratives of Jewish life as instructional material unless Scripture specifically directs us to.

I also do not see where the NT deals directly with genre, rhythm, time, etc. as it pertains to music.  I would think if there was a hard and fast standard that this standard would have been given at this early stage.  The people of Europe and Asia who were immersed in the grosses of paganism would have needed this information as much as anyone would ever need it but Scripture is silent.  There is much about the content of music used in the worship of God but nothing about rhythms, beats, time, etc.

Since people are all ABSOLUTELY unique, I do not know how anyone could say that a particular genre stimulates the same emotions or thoughts in everyone.  I work with guys that listen to death metal all day.  I am not reminded of any of my behavior patterns prior to salvation by the music.  I really do not actually hear it except when another guy and I joke about their calling the groups growling singing. 

It appears that some believe in individual soul liberty except when it comes to music.  There are some genres that I do not like to hear.  There are others where the music overpowers the lyrics and I cannot understand what is being said.  For me these are not conducive to worship but in any gathering of the church I will not be the only one there so I would be willing to let someone else be edified by the music.  There are even widely accepted music styles that I do not think lend to worship like the liturgical styles.  I have been subjected to and even learned to enjoy "A Mighty Fortress..." though the rhythm and music is horrible in my opinion but for a sixteenth-century German monk it was probably good stuff. 

Since Scripture is not instructive on rhythm, time, beat, etc. I see no reason why INDIVIDUAL soul liberty would not apply in this instance.

 

[Just John]

I refuse to accept the "if you are conservative in music you are racist" card.  That holds no water with me.

That is the absolute anti-thesis of what I claim. It was clearly inferred here that rock n roll"s rhythm was patterned after people who "ran around naked", "ate people" and "were controlled by spirits".  THAT is a racist comment and not correct. I don't think because you have a conservative standard in music you are a racist. That's silly. But I do think if it's predicated on that type of nonsense than yes, it's racist.

I brought up naked, eating people, and controlled by spirits.  I did not mention a music genre.  I did not mention an ethnicity.  I made a stand alone statement, so quit lumping it in with 'black',  or 'rock'  I said neither.
You called my remarks racist.  I mentioned no race.  How did you determine them to be racial at all?  Every nation under Heaven has run after false gods, every kindred, every tribe.

I have nothing against you personally but just WHO did you mean when you said "rhythym" from people "running around naked, eating people and controlled by spirits"?  Your denial is quite hollow. Have the guts to stand up for what seems to be quite evident of what you believe. You clearly had a chance to better define your statement earlier but chose to be coy.

I meant what I said.  I am Cherokee. My people  believe that the spirits come into the drum, and possess those who hear it.  Am I to ignore that?  Do I go hang myself from hooks for 3 days and 3 nights, in the 'sundance' to signify substitutional sacrifice?  Do I drum til a trance comes on me, and my 'ancestors' (deceitful spirits) speak through me?  Do I wait for the 8th Grandfather, nana boozhoo, to come (the man of sin), and restore our lands?  No.  I trust the shed blood of Jesus, my sacrifice.  I yield to God's Holy Spirit, not the lesser spirits, and ask Him to order my steps in His  Will.  I wait for the return of the Lamb, who will destroy nana boozhoo at the brightness of his coming!

If a man runs past me, naked, eating his neighbor, and speaking in 3 different voices...I'm not gonna ask him for his playlist faves, sorry.

Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

Yeah, cuz Cherokees are the FIRST thing I think of as a group stereotyped as "naked", "eating people" and "controlled by spirits" AS IT RELATES TO RHYTHM in a discussion about types of music on a Christian board.  :

Maybe because the first and only group you can consider as naked cannibals controlled by spirits are Africans, YOU are racist.   Even a poor student of history can tell you that those are characteristics of a wide array of peoples from all over the world at one point or another.

No...I think you should re-read my comments which are very clear in context.  I specifically mentioned a "stereotyped" group in the context of being known for their RHYTHM in music often discussed by Christians in regards to the correct type of music.  This doesn't sound like any of the other types of groups mentioned here to me though some of you would try to obfuscate. Prophet had a chance to clarify...he chose to be coy then.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Great.  Nobody here is racist or playing the race card.  That's good to know.  So, let's get back on track, shall we?

 

[Just John]

Why is it that the knee-jerk reaction to noticing idolatry, is that the one who noticed must be racist?  Ethiopia was a Christian nation for 2,000 years, unoccupied by foreign forces, until 1939, when the Axis powers invaded.  They were then led  away by the error of Rastafani, but still many churches remain.  Egypt has its Coptics, from Origen at Alexandria, until now, with Sam Thomas. 
These examples just illustrate that pagan savagery isn't race wide, or continent wide, on Africa or any other.

Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

In my opinion I think you set up a straw man. We are ALL under the influence of idolatry whether it be idolatry of self (the primary one), idolatry of others, idolatry of things, etc. In the same way we are ALL "controlled by spirits". That was one of the red flags I took from your original comments as being racist. It points at a group (and you can claim anyone you want here) but we all fall under those same categories.

 

[Just John]

I would like to make a few observations that drive my decision making in this area and may be helpful to others.

ALL music for the worship of God or for entertainment has its roots in paganism.  Abraham was a Syrian.
ALL music used by Israel was constantly subjected to pagan influences:  Egyptian bondage, Assyrian bondage, Babylonian bondage, Persian bondage, etc.
ALL music is a product of cultures that are dominated by non-Christian influences be they Greek, Druid, Asian, African, Caribbean, Native American, Hispanic, etc.


I also believe that Israel in the OT is just a snapshot of God's dealing with humanity.  They are used to show that God desires to have a group of people that worship and serve Him.  This has nothing to do with ethnicity or culture because the strangers were always welcomed into the worship of God.  With that said...... I do not believe we have warrant to use narratives of Jewish life as instructional material unless Scripture specifically directs us to.

I also do not see where the NT deals directly with genre, rhythm, time, etc. as it pertains to music.  I would think if there was a hard and fast standard that this standard would have been given at this early stage.  The people of Europe and Asia who were immersed in the grosses of paganism would have needed this information as much as anyone would ever need it but Scripture is silent.  There is much about the content of music used in the worship of God but nothing about rhythms, beats, time, etc.

Since people are all ABSOLUTELY unique, I do not know how anyone could say that a particular genre stimulates the same emotions or thoughts in everyone.  I work with guys that listen to death metal all day.  I am not reminded of any of my behavior patterns prior to salvation by the music.  I really do not actually hear it except when another guy and I joke about their calling the groups growling singing. 

It appears that some believe in individual soul liberty except when it comes to music.  There are some genres that I do not like to hear.  There are others where the music overpowers the lyrics and I cannot understand what is being said.  For me these are not conducive to worship but in any gathering of the church I will not be the only one there so I would be willing to let someone else be edified by the music.  There are even widely accepted music styles that I do not think lend to worship like the liturgical styles.  I have been subjected to and even learned to enjoy "A Mighty Fortress..." though the rhythm and music is horrible in my opinion but for a sixteenth-century German monk it was probably good stuff. 

Since Scripture is not instructive on rhythm, time, beat, etc. I see no reason why INDIVIDUAL soul liberty would not apply in this instance.

A very good post but I especially like that bolded in red.

 

[Ransom]

prophet said:

I am Cherokee. My people  believe that the spirits come into the drum, and possess those who hear it.  Am I to ignore that?

I do.

If I were approached by someone whose traditional religion was a form of animism, I would quite rightly recognize his religion as pagan and false.

In other words, I wouldn't believe an animist who said that nature spirits inhabited rocks and trees. Why should I believe a Cherokee who says spirits enter his drum, and - worse - use it as a justification for a particular Christian tradition?

That kind of thinking does nothing but legitimize paganism.

 

[christundivided]

Maybe because the first and only group you can consider as naked cannibals controlled by spirits are Africans, YOU are racist.   Even a poor student of history can tell you that those are characteristics of a wide array of peoples from all over the world at one point or another.

Maybe you could name some of them? Can you detail the ethnic make up of these "wide array of peoples from all over the world"?

Really???  You think that the only civilizations in history that have been influenced by idolatry and paganism and demonic influence are those with a skin tone that happens to be darker than others????

That is either a very racist or a very ignorant viewpoint.

I was being sarcastic but you should be able to list examples instead of just blowing of the response.

Paganism has always lead me to enjoy CCM.

 

[Fresh Air]

Marcionism is alive and well in today's churches.

...because I won't build my ecclesiology for the NT institution of the church from the OT. Alrighty then...

 

[Fresh Air]

Yeah, cuz Cherokees are the FIRST thing I think of as a group stereotyped as "naked", "eating people" and "controlled by spirits" AS IT RELATES TO RHYTHM in a discussion about types of music on a Christian board.  :

It seems to me that you are blaming him for jumping to the wrong conclusion yourself.

 

[rsc2a]

Marcionism is alive and well in today's churches.

...because I won't build my ecclesiology for the NT institution of the church from the OT. Alrighty then...

Original quote: I think using the OT to inform our concept of what God wants in relation to music is completely valid. I think using the OT to inform our concept of what a church service is for, how it should be structured, and what its philosophical underpinnings are is extremely problematic. - Tom Brennan

Question: Where do you think the concept of the purpose of the assembly, the structure of said assembly, and philosophical underpinnings of the Jewish folks who wrote the NT came from?

 

[Fresh Air]

Why is it OK to use the OT to define music, but not worship? (and thanks for the kind words, Tom)

To make clear, I'm not saying that there isn't acceptable/not acceptable music for a church service. I disagree with the criteria you are using to define what that is. But it appears we may not even agree on what a church service is for.

Your last sentence is precisely it. Worship dramatically changes from the OT to the NT. Worship is our response when we see God, a humble adoration of Him. In the OT it was done at/toward the place where God was. In the NT it is done any/every where in spirit. You don't go to church to 'worship' God. You can worship God at church, for He is there, but that isn't its purpose. The purpose of the church service isn't worship. It is edification. And the purpose of how the church service is structured is designed to lend itself to edification, not worship.

When you take this latter approach it informs how you balance music/preaching. And in relation to music itself it informs how you use it. It no longer becomes something used to 'usher people into the presence of God.' You no longer have a 'worship leader'. You no longer design it to 'praise and worship.' (I realize that praise/worship is edifying, but they are now no longer the goal/aim.) When you do that, the goal of the song/music portion of your service becomes much less, how shall I say this, emotional.

There are millions of American Christians who think that in order to worship they have to go to church, and that said worship is the emotions they feel when they sing. In so doing, they are dramatically shortchanging praise/worship, and twisting the purpose of the actual church service out of shape. The churches they build reflect this scriptural imbalance, IMHO.

 

[Fresh Air]

Question: Where do you think the concept of the purpose of the assembly, the structure of said assembly, and philosophical underpinnings of the Jewish folks who wrote the NT came from?

The Holy Spirit as He inspired them to pen the words of the NT written since the world began. Don't misunderstand me, I grasp that our Christianity springs from, for lack of a better term, Judaism. I realize that Jesus was a Jew, and that there is a great Jewish influence in our religion. I also fully believe in the inspiration of the OT, and largely applicable to the Christian today in many many senses. I also believe the Jews are still, in a sense, God's chosen people, and that He isn't in any way done with them. But the church is NOT an OT institution. The church is NOT a Jewish institution. It isn't simply a Roman Empire extension of the synagogue dressed up to welcome Gentiles. It is a completely different institution. When you don't believe that both the doctrine and practice of your ecclesiology gets all messed up.

 

[prophet]

Yeah, cuz Cherokees are the FIRST thing I think of as a group stereotyped as "naked", "eating people" and "controlled by spirits" AS IT RELATES TO RHYTHM in a discussion about types of music on a Christian board.  :

It seems to me that you are blaming him for jumping to the wrong conclusion yourself.

Tom, I am involved right now in helping start another church in Englewood.  One of Ravenswood's staff is going to pastor it.  I am headed over to Cornerstone, from Englewood, to hear Courtney preach.  I will stop and see Lampton as well, hopefully by June there will be a work in Englewood.  I am the only non-black that I run into here, besides my Chippewa witnessing partner, but it will all be for naught, because I'm a closet racist that wants the people of the South Side to become Amerinds, or Euros.

Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Just John]

Yeah, cuz Cherokees are the FIRST thing I think of as a group stereotyped as "naked", "eating people" and "controlled by spirits" AS IT RELATES TO RHYTHM in a discussion about types of music on a Christian board.  :

It seems to me that you are blaming him for jumping to the wrong conclusion yourself.

No, not really....

 

[Recovering IFB]

One the elder ladies in our church many years ago said..." I like music, but if the intent is to move your feet before it moves your heart, then something is wrong."

1 Sam 18:6 And it happened as they were coming, when David returned from killing the Philistine, that the women came out of all the cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet King Saul, with tambourines, with joy and with musical instruments. 7 And the women sang as they played, and said,