Music in Ministry

[Fresh Air]

1 Sam 18:6 And it happened as they were coming, when David returned from killing the Philistine, that the women came out of all the cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet King Saul, with tambourines, with joy and with musical instruments. 7 And the women sang as they played, and said,

 

[rsc2a]

Question: Where do you think the concept of the purpose of the assembly, the structure of said assembly, and philosophical underpinnings of the Jewish folks who wrote the NT came from?

The Holy Spirit as He inspired them to pen the words of the NT written since the world began. Don't misunderstand me, I grasp that our Christianity springs from, for lack of a better term, Judaism. I realize that Jesus was a Jew, and that there is a great Jewish influence in our religion. I also fully believe in the inspiration of the OT, and largely applicable to the Christian today in many many senses. I also believe the Jews are still, in a sense, God's chosen people, and that He isn't in any way done with them. But the church is NOT an OT institution. The church is NOT a Jewish institution. It isn't simply a Roman Empire extension of the synagogue dressed up to welcome Gentiles. It is a completely different institution. When you don't believe that both the doctrine and practice of your ecclesiology gets all messed up.

You just happen to be a lot more dispensational than I do in your theology.

 

[Recovering IFB]

1 Sam 18:6 And it happened as they were coming, when David returned from killing the Philistine, that the women came out of all the cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet King Saul, with tambourines, with joy and with musical instruments. 7 And the women sang as they played, and said,

 

[Fresh Air]

Are you being racist? Are you serious?
There's dancing in the Bible, can you show me where the proper dance moves are shown in Scripture?
Can you accept different cultures do thing differently than the good ole USA?

Nope. I cannot be against contemporary dancing unless I'm racist.

<facepalm>

Yes, there is dancing in the Bible. Yes, the Jews danced. But my entire point was that Jewish dancing has little/nothing in common with what passes for dancing in our day. In addition, the Psalms are not an instructional book for the NT church service. And finally, yes, I can fully accept that different cultures do things differently than the traditional American culture. I pastor and live in the inner-city which the inhabitants that populate your lily white suburb ran away from decades ago.

...and FTR, I do not think you are racist; I've seen nothing to indicate that. But I would really appreciate if we could stop throwing that accusation around on this thread, especially when the two guys it has been aimed at (prophet and myself) have given decades of ministry living and serving among majority non-white populations proving the opposite. It is not only rude and unkind, it is also intellectually dishonest and smacks of a weak position.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tom Brennan]But my entire point was that Jewish dancing has little/nothing in common with what passes for dancing in our day.[/quote]

How in the world can you possible know this?

[quote author=Tom Brennan]In addition, the Psalms are not an instructional book for the NT church service.[/quote]

I don't see an instruction manual in the NT for a NT church service. And can the OT not inform us regarding our NT practices?

[quote author=Tom Brennan]...the two guys it has been aimed at (prophet and myself) have given decades of ministry living and serving among majority non-white populations proving the opposite...[/quote]

I've stated before. Where you serve doesn't make one any more or any less a racist than anyone else. The missionaries who sought to convert the "Indian savages" were racist even though they met all the criteria you just spelled out. Personally, I would find the fact that someone keeps talking about how much they do for the non-white population to be indicative of racism, because it seems as though they apparently cannot see past the color of one's skin.

 

[graceandtruth]

Two thing I think would help our understanding of these subjects:

1.  Dance takes many forms with the least  utilized one being the new sensual dance styles of America and Western Europe.  Defining dance by American club dancing alone has fueled the unbiblical "anti-dance" stance of IFB's.

2.  Racism can be subtly displayed through a patriarchal approach to ministry of people of different ethnic groups including rescuing them from their culture.  I'm not saying that is what Tom or Prophet is doing but I think that is rsc2a's point.

3.  I think "seeing past" someone's ethnicity is an incorrect approach to ministry.  Our ethnicity is a gift from God and part of our bearing of the image of God.  Our ethnicity also shapes our world views.  These differences must be acknowledged and incorporated into our congregational lives unless they are clearly antithetical to Scripture not just uncomfortable for those who are not part of that particular ethnicity.

I think these observations will help to remove some misunderstandings. 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=graceandtruth]3.  I think "seeing past" someone's ethnicity is an incorrect approach to ministry.[/quote]

I don't define ethnicity by how light or dark someone's skin is.

 

[graceandtruth]

[quote author=graceandtruth]3.  I think "seeing past" someone's ethnicity is an incorrect approach to ministry.

I don't define ethnicity by how light or dark someone's skin is.
[/quote]

I understand. 
I am lighter in skin color than many who are not African-American.  Physical characteristics do sometimes identify ethnicity in the minds of many though they are a poor indicator of culture.  So we are in agreement.

 

[Izdaari]

[quote author=graceandtruth]3.  I think "seeing past" someone's ethnicity is an incorrect approach to ministry.

I don't define ethnicity by how light or dark someone's skin is.

I understand. 
I am lighter in skin color than many who are not African-American.  Physical characteristics do sometimes identify ethnicity in the minds of many though they are a poor indicator of culture.  So we are in agreement.
[/quote]

And I'm darker than some who are, due to Heinz 57 ancestry and the sun. Right that you can't always tell ethnicity by them, and even when you can, that doesn't necessarily determine culture. I'm often mistaken for Filipino (who are quite common in my region), though I have no such heritage at all.

 

[prophet]

Bottom line is, Idolatry and things sacrificed unto idols is what we are supposed to be abstaining from.  The scriptures don't say 'unless a certain ethnic group gets offended'.
It is very basic Christianity.  But our society in The U.S. is so conformed to this present world's 'political correctness', that  Christians are gnashed on with teeth if they call idolatry 'idolatry'.
If your rhythm pattern was borrowed from witchcraft, idolatry, or elevators, you might have a problem.


Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Izdaari]

Bottom line is, Idolatry and things sacrificed unto idols is what we are supposed to be abstaining from.  The scriptures don't say 'unless a certain ethnic group gets offended'.
It is very basic Christianity.  But our society in The U.S. is so conformed to this present world's 'political correctness', that  Christians are gnashed on with teeth if they call idolatry 'idolatry'.
If your rhythm pattern was borrowed from witchcraft, idolatry, or elevators, you might have a problem.


Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

I'll agree with you this far: I'm totally against elevator music!

 

[rsc2a]

Bottom line is, Idolatry and things sacrificed unto idols is what we are supposed to be abstaining from.  The scriptures don't say 'unless a certain ethnic group gets offended'.
It is very basic Christianity.  But our society in The U.S. is so conformed to this present world's 'political correctness', that  Christians are gnashed on with teeth if they call idolatry 'idolatry'.
If your rhythm pattern was borrowed from witchcraft, idolatry, or elevators, you might have a problem.


Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

Actually Paul said you don't have bother abstaining unless it causes a weaker brother to stumble. After all, idols aren't anything anyways.

 

[Castor Muscular]

I am lighter in skin color than many who are not African-American.  Physical characteristics do sometimes identify ethnicity in the minds of many though they are a poor indicator of culture.  So we are in agreement.

There is only one race.  I don't get what the fuss is all about just because some people look different than others.  The differences attributed to race are really just cultural differences. 

 

[Izdaari]

I am lighter in skin color than many who are not African-American.  Physical characteristics do sometimes identify ethnicity in the minds of many though they are a poor indicator of culture.  So we are in agreement.

There is only one race.  I don't get what the fuss is all about just because some people look different than others.  The differences attributed to race are really just cultural differences.

White people can't rap... or so I've heard. But of course Eminem would disagree. 

 

[Recovering IFB]

<facepalm>

What , again? that is very disrespectful

Yes, there is dancing in the Bible. Yes, the Jews danced. But my entire point was that Jewish dancing has little/nothing in common with what passes for dancing in our day.

Yet David really got down, didn't he?
2 Sam 6:12 Now King David was told,

 

[Just John]

I've stated before. Where you serve doesn't make one any more or any less a racist than anyone else. The missionaries who sought to convert the "Indian savages" were racist even though they met all the criteria you just spelled out. Personally, I would find the fact that someone keeps talking about how much they do for the non-white population to be indicative of racism, because it seems as though they apparently cannot see past the color of one's skin.

"But some of my best friends are....."  :

Good post and bears repeating. I am told Hyles bragged about his outreach to black churches and the "inner city"...but he was very pleased to let the "inner-city" kids their own school, church and church buses.

Asking for a clarification and discussing racist statements is not "rude" nor comes from a "weak argument" but rather brings insight and lively debate. (Unfortunately the search engine on the fff.com site isn't working well enough to provide more points to discuss.).

 

[prophet]

I am lighter in skin color than many who are not African-American.  Physical characteristics do sometimes identify ethnicity in the minds of many though they are a poor indicator of culture.  So we are in agreement.

There is only one race.  I don't get what the fuss is all about just because some people look different than others.  The differences attributed to race are really just cultural differences.

Exactly right. 

Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[prophet]

Bottom line is, Idolatry and things sacrificed unto idols is what we are supposed to be abstaining from.  The scriptures don't say 'unless a certain ethnic group gets offended'.
It is very basic Christianity.  But our society in The U.S. is so conformed to this present world's 'political correctness', that  Christians are gnashed on with teeth if they call idolatry 'idolatry'.
If your rhythm pattern was borrowed from witchcraft, idolatry, or elevators, you might have a problem.


Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

I'll agree with you this far: I'm totally against elevator music!

It is awful, isn't it?

Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Izdaari]

Bottom line is, Idolatry and things sacrificed unto idols is what we are supposed to be abstaining from.  The scriptures don't say 'unless a certain ethnic group gets offended'.
It is very basic Christianity.  But our society in The U.S. is so conformed to this present world's 'political correctness', that  Christians are gnashed on with teeth if they call idolatry 'idolatry'.
If your rhythm pattern was borrowed from witchcraft, idolatry, or elevators, you might have a problem.


Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

I'll agree with you this far: I'm totally against elevator music!

It is awful, isn't it?

Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

Yep, truly awful, denatured mockeries of the real music it was made from.

But I'll not give up jazz, blues, rock or reggae, despite the naked savage heathen origins of the rhythms. They are too much fun to listen to, and I think God intended that. Of course, I might not find them suitable for worship.

 

[Izdaari]

Incidentally, this is not worship music, not by a long shot. It's totally secular in a steampunk SF kind of way. But I wonder what y'all might make of it:

http://youtu.be/dDRHx4cPgbE

Turn up to 1080P if your system can handle it!