Music in Ministry

[rsc2a]

Yes, we should separate ourselves from the world. Let's define the difference (again):

World: Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. (Galatians 5:19-21a ESV)

Not world: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; (Galatians 5:22-23 ESV)

So, you maintain that if the subject matter is in keeping with the fruits of the Spirit, it is acceptable and this is the only guide?

I maintain that making the argument about subject matter, the types of melody and rhythm used, the types of instruments, etc. instead of about the attitude and thoughts of the individual participating is a fundamentally flawed system of measurement.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Yes, we should separate ourselves from the world. Let's define the difference (again):

World: Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. (Galatians 5:19-21a ESV)

Not world: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; (Galatians 5:22-23 ESV)

So, you maintain that if the subject matter is in keeping with the fruits of the Spirit, it is acceptable and this is the only guide?

I maintain that making the argument about subject matter, the types of melody and rhythm used, the types of instruments, etc. instead of about the attitude and thoughts of the individual participating is a fundamentally flawed system of measurement.

Okay, so you are apparently more open in your music than most people here.  Do you personally have a set of music that you would not be comfortable using or hearing in church or for personal worship?

 

[Just John]

If the people who you learned your rhythm pattern from were naked, eating each other, and controlled by spirits....you may have a problem.

Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

Is this the same "jungle-beat" argument from the Jim Crow 1950's? 

My statement stands alone.

:

 

[rsc2a]

Yes, we should separate ourselves from the world. Let's define the difference (again):

World: Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. (Galatians 5:19-21a ESV)

Not world: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; (Galatians 5:22-23 ESV)

So, you maintain that if the subject matter is in keeping with the fruits of the Spirit, it is acceptable and this is the only guide?

I maintain that making the argument about subject matter, the types of melody and rhythm used, the types of instruments, etc. instead of about the attitude and thoughts of the individual participating is a fundamentally flawed system of measurement.

Okay, so you are apparently more open in your music than most people here.  Do you personally have a set of music that you would not be comfortable using or hearing in church or for personal worship?

For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven: (Ecclesiastes 3:1 ESV)

With that being said, is there any musical genre I think should never be utilized for worship? No. Are there particular songs I find problematic? Yes, and it crosses a wide multitude of genres.

(I would also bet that I likely define worship differently than you are doing here.)

 

[Binaca Chugger]

For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven: (Ecclesiastes 3:1 ESV)

With that being said, is there any musical genre I think should never be utilized for worship? No. Are there particular songs I find problematic? Yes, and it crosses a wide multitude of genres.

So we approach this from fundamentally different paradigms, which means we will not agree on this topic.  Our key difference seems to be associations. 

I would also include that a style that is meant to ignite emotion of anger, fear, sexuality, etc. should not be used for worship.  But, then again, you don't believe music can stir emotion, do you?

Still, you find some songs problematic, but I am guessing the issue is more about the doctrine of the song than the music of the song.  Or am I missing something?

(I would also bet that I likely define worship differently than you are doing here.)

Quite possibly.  I have heard a wide array of definitions.  One fellow continually preached that the only way to worship God is to sacrificially give money (Nice, huh?  I don't go to that church anymore).  I define worship as expressing to God my humility before His awe, my amazement at His undeserved love, my acknowledgement of His presence and Sovereignty in my life.  You could probably nitpick that little homespun definition apart, but it pretty well summarizes what I desire my worship of God to be.  I believe music plays an integral part in this expression, both at times dedicated to worship and throughout the day while engaged in other activities (driving or debating on the forum).

Though we do not agree and probably never will.  You have offered a spirited debate and points to ponder in a civilized manner.  Thank you.

 

[rsc2a]

For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven: (Ecclesiastes 3:1 ESV)

With that being said, is there any musical genre I think should never be utilized for worship? No. Are there particular songs I find problematic? Yes, and it crosses a wide multitude of genres.

So we approach this from fundamentally different paradigms, which means we will not agree on this topic.  Our key difference seems to be associations.

Yes...I don't lump music into categories based on what beat they use, nor do I base my associations on stereotypes.

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]I would also include that a style that is meant to ignite emotion of anger, fear, sexuality, etc. should not be used for worship.[/quote]

1 - This is assuming that ignition of these emotions is intrinsic to listening to them. (It's not.)
2 - This is assuming that one cannot appropriately experience these emotions in a worship setting. (One can.) 

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]But, then again, you don't believe music can stir emotion, do you?[/quote]

No, that would be crazy. I can name dozens of songs across an array of genres that stir every manner of emotion in the human experience within my own heart.

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]Still, you find some songs problematic, but I am guessing the issue is more about the doctrine of the song than the music of the song.  Or am I missing something?[/quote]

My issue is with the attitude of the individual listening to the song. Lyrics (particularly) can contribute to a wrong attitude, but they are not a guarantee of said attitude. One can be listening to and/or singing the most doctrinally pure (whatever that is) music and still have a horrible attitude.

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]

(I would also bet that I likely define worship differently than you are doing here.)

Quite possibly.  I have heard a wide array of definitions.  One fellow continually preached that the only way to worship God is to sacrificially give money (Nice, huh?  I don't go to that church anymore).  I define worship as expressing to God my humility before His awe, my amazement at His undeserved love, my acknowledgement of His presence and Sovereignty in my life.  You could probably nitpick that little homespun definition apart, but it pretty well summarizes what I desire my worship of God to be.  I believe music plays an integral part in this expression, both at times dedicated to worship and throughout the day while engaged in other activities (driving or debating on the forum).[/quote]

Thus the reason we have differing definitions...

(Reason: There is no sacred/secular divide.)

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]Though we do not agree and probably never will.  You have offered a spirited debate and points to ponder in a civilized manner.  Thank you.[/quote]

Well, I hope we do agree eventually, but I have enjoyed the discussion with you.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

My issue is with the attitude of the individual listening to the song. Lyrics (particularly) can contribute to a wrong attitude, but they are not a guarantee of said attitude. One can be listening to and/or singing the most doctrinally pure (whatever that is) music and still have a horrible attitude.

Well, well.  We do agree on some things!  Of course, many of us have examples of this, and maybe were/are guilty of it ourselves sometimes.  Amos is pretty strong against this false worship, isn't it?  I would also include the attitude of the performer.  There are many professional and non-professional Sunday special types that are singing for vain glory.

Thus the reason we have differing definitions...

(Reason: There is no sacred/secular divide.)

Maybe we are not so different.  I do understand that even our 10 hour shift in the factory is to be performed "heartily as unto the Lord" and is hence sacred.  The sacred should never be abandoned or segmented out of our life.  What I meant by that was whether I am engaged in a specific time slot for that purpose of worship alone or if......  Yes those other activities ought to be expressing to God my devotion to Him......  You know what I mean, right? 

 

[samspade]

The problem with defining acceptable music by style, beat, genre, etc. is that you assume everyone in the congregation is from a homogeneous background. I attend a church with multiple ethnicities (40% black, 40% caucasian, 20% other) and people from all over the globe. As our music director says when asked why we don't do more traditional songs - whose tradition?

It seems very self-centered to say that my style of music is the only one acceptable to use in worship. But, there are many things about American Christianity that are self-centered, so I shouldn't be surprised.

 

[graceandtruth]

If the people who you learned your rhythm pattern from were naked, eating each other, and controlled by spirits....you may have a problem.

Sent from my N860 using Tapatalk 2

Is this the same "jungle-beat" argument from the Jim Crow 1950's? 

My statement stands alone.

:

Great summation of Prophet's post. 

What if the people you learned your rhythm pattern from where naked, worshiping the druid gods, and drinking each other's blood?  Does that qualify as unacceptable?

Or

What if the people you learned your rhythm patterns from were naked, sacrificing their children to their gods, and controlled by spirits like the Syrians?  Does that disqualify Abraham and his descendants who would have learned their rhythms in that environment?   

 

[graceandtruth]

The problem with defining acceptable music by style, beat, genre, etc. is that you assume everyone in the congregation is from a homogeneous background. I attend a church with multiple ethnicities (40% black, 40% caucasian, 20% other) and people from all over the globe. As our music director says when asked why we don't do more traditional songs - whose tradition?

It seems very self-centered to say that my style of music is the only one acceptable to use in worship. But, there are many things about American Christianity that are self-centered, so I shouldn't be surprised.

You hit the nail on the head.  In an environment that lacks ethnic diversity there is no need to consider how others may view music. 

 

[samspade]

The problem with defining acceptable music by style, beat, genre, etc. is that you assume everyone in the congregation is from a homogeneous background. I attend a church with multiple ethnicities (40% black, 40% caucasian, 20% other) and people from all over the globe. As our music director says when asked why we don't do more traditional songs - whose tradition?

It seems very self-centered to say that my style of music is the only one acceptable to use in worship. But, there are many things about American Christianity that are self-centered, so I shouldn't be surprised.

You hit the nail on the head.  In an environment that lacks ethnic diversity there is no need to consider how others may view music.

Sadly, that is one of the big reasons that we don't have much diversity in our churches (all evangelical churches, not just IFB). It's too bad, because worshiping with people from completely different backgrounds, ethnicities, socio-economic groups, and countries is a blessing that every Christian should participate in.

 

[lnf]

Goodness!  Several of you have brought up some very good points...so many that I won't try to use the quote button, since I haven't quite mastered it.  :'(

Yes, music does speak to my emotions...certain songs can bring me to tears, soaring joy, quiet awe, etc.  Most times, this is caused by the whole of the song, i.e. music and lyrics working together.

Personally, I do enjoy hearing different genres of music.  If the style is never varied, it's almost like hearing the same song over and over.  Before long, it no longer has the same impact.

There are very few styles of music that I just cannot stand.  I admit, I can barely tolerate rap.  It sounds angry to me.  But I will also say, I have heard some Christian rap that has a good message.  No, I wouldn't buy a CD, but I can certainly listen to a song or two when mixed in with other genres.

As soon as I get home in the evenings, I turn on my favorite Christian radio station and my computer.  Depending upon what program is on, I might be purposely listening or it might just be playing in the background as I am surfing the net.  But sometimes, while I am concentrating on the computer, a song will come on that immediately grabs my attention.  I stop what I am doing to purposely listen, or even sing along.

I agree that most of us are missing out on experiencing the music of different genres and ethnicities.  I have heard instrumentals played by a steel drum band (the same songs that I have sung in my church) that have brought me to my knees because they were so beautifully spirit-filled!

I love my church.  We have, in my opinion, a very talented music ministry.  Since I have been a member, I have noticed an expansion of our music style.  But I wonder...what if we "enlarged our coasts" a bit further?  Might we become a bit more ethnically diverse?  I think that would be awesome. 

And, no, I don't believe one should pick their church based solely upon the music, but it would be less than honest to fail to acknowledge that the whole of the experience, including the music, is a factor. 

 

[Just John]

So very true. People are typically afraid of what they do not know. While I'm a conservative that is a typical problem with conservatives by their very nature. However we need to know what we should really be conservative about.

 

[Fresh Air]

:

It isn't racist to grasp that the roots of rock music are embedded firmly in black music. Now, it may be used by racists as a reason to avoid rock music certainly, but the observation alone is simply historically accurate.

 

[Fresh Air]

The problem with defining acceptable music by style, beat, genre, etc. is that you assume everyone in the congregation is from a homogeneous background. I attend a church with multiple ethnicities (40% black, 40% caucasian, 20% other) and people from all over the globe. As our music director says when asked why we don't do more traditional songs - whose tradition?

It seems very self-centered to say that my style of music is the only one acceptable to use in worship. But, there are many things about American Christianity that are self-centered, so I shouldn't be surprised.

Our church is the epitome of an inner-city multi-ethnic church, and yet we don't have a problem uniting around what we believe is the right kind of music. It isn't a matter of white tradition, either, for one of our Filipinos has written a substantial portion of the music we use. I can understand why you gave the illustration you did, and I'm not trying to cut you off at the knees. I'm simply trying to say that just b/c a church uses basically one style of music doesn't mean it is being racially/culturally insensitive.

 

[Fresh Air]

Sadly, that is one of the big reasons that we don't have much diversity in our churches (all evangelical churches, not just IFB). It's too bad, because worshiping with people from completely different backgrounds, ethnicities, socio-economic groups, and countries is a blessing that every Christian should participate in.

I completely agree that it is a wonderful thing when a wide variety of ethnicities call one church home. I also completely agree that this is a tremendous and growing problem for the IFB movement. I completely disagree that the music has to be likewise widely varied in order to do so. IMHO and experience, it isn't a matter of music. It is a matter of where your church is located, what kind of 'vibe' you give off, how you incorporate ethnicities in public service opportunities, and most of all, where/how you do your outreach/evangelism.

 

[lnf]

I completely agree that it is a wonderful thing when a wide variety of ethnicities call one church home. I also completely agree that this is a tremendous and growing problem for the IFB movement. I completely disagree that the music has to be likewise widely varied in order to do so. IMHO and experience, it isn't a matter of music. It is a matter of where your church is located, what kind of 'vibe' you give off, how you incorporate ethnicities in public service opportunities, and most of all, where/how you do your outreach/evangelism.
[/quote]

Mr. Brennan, I agree with you in that there are many variables that might attract a diverse congregation.  Music is but one of them, and, perhaps, even the smallest one.  But might varied music selections benefit the entire congregation?

 

[Fresh Air]

  But might varied music selections benefit the entire congregation?

No. I don't believe wrong music benefits my congregation. 

 

[Just John]

:

It isn't racist to grasp that the roots of rock music are embedded firmly in black music. Now, it may be used by racists as a reason to avoid rock music certainly, but the observation alone is simply historically accurate.

There is a big difference between "the roots of rock music are embedded firmly in black music" and "If the people who you learned your rhythm pattern from were naked, eating each other, and controlled by spirits....you may have a problem".

Rock music is truly an American invention, derived from rhythm and blues, jazz, gospel, country, and folk music, not just one genre.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Racism is disgusting.  End of story.

I don't understand how preferring songs where the melody and words are the emphasis rather than the beat and rhythm being the emphasis is somehow perceived as racist.  I have stated repeatedly that I do not want my songs of worship to have a sound that is associated with music that accompanies sin and vice (words of the song and actions of people playing the music).  I don't think which stereotype of sub-culture usually listens to the music has anything to do with it.  I can enjoy Christian music from various styles and cultural backgrounds.  I believe that music in church should have a higher standard because there are multiple people from various backgrounds that may be easily offended and we do not want to offend our brother.  However, I do believe there are genres that should be avoided because of associations.  I also believe that certain styles should be avoided because of the musical principles apparent in the songs themselves.  Not being a musician, I have a hard time defining this, other than my preference, which I have learned is not always the best determiner of right/wrong.  When a song has a sound to it that causes me to be reminded of cultures associated with sin and vice, I turn it off or don't want to include it in worship.  When the rhythm and beat is emphasized rather than the melody, I believe it is in contrast to Eph 5 and do not want it included in worship.

I am a very right/wrong kind of guy.  I have recently attended some churches who have opened up their stance on music and am opening up for discussion as to why I should change my stand.  I want more than "it reminds me of...." because this is very subjective. 

So far, the basic response has been the belief that music itself is amoral and therefore no music should be rejected.  This is an opinion that I reject, though others hold it firmly. 

The other part to this has been "Just because it reminds you of sin, doesn't mean it reminds me of sin.  So, get over it and enjoy."  I will give some credence to this, but surely there is a line of separation that must be drawn if we really do want to "Come out from among them and be ye separate."  Where is that line?

I refuse to accept the "if you are conservative in music you are racist" card.  That holds no water with me.