Music in Ministry

[Izdaari]

I am lighter in skin color than many who are not African-American.  Physical characteristics do sometimes identify ethnicity in the minds of many though they are a poor indicator of culture.  So we are in agreement.

There is only one race.  I don't get what the fuss is all about just because some people look different than others.  The differences attributed to race are really just cultural differences.

Exactly right. 

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Agreed, We are all just human, with aspirations to being divine, which is possible thanks to Jesus. Who our ancestors are is not relevant to that. Because when you get right down to it, Adam and Eve, and Jesus, the 2nd Adam, are the only ancestors that matter.

 

[prophet]

Bottom line is, Idolatry and things sacrificed unto idols is what we are supposed to be abstaining from.  The scriptures don't say 'unless a certain ethnic group gets offended'.
It is very basic Christianity.  But our society in The U.S. is so conformed to this present world's 'political correctness', that  Christians are gnashed on with teeth if they call idolatry 'idolatry'.
If your rhythm pattern was borrowed from witchcraft, idolatry, or elevators, you might have a problem.


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Actually Paul said you don't have bother abstaining unless it causes a weaker brother to stumble. After all, idols aren't anything anyways.

I Corinthians 10:14 "Wherefore my dearly beloved, flee idolatry."
Colossians 3:5 "Mortify therefore your members which are on the earth; fornication, uncleaness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and coveteousness, which is idolatry:"
Acts 15:19-20 "Wherefore my sentence is, that ye trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles have turned to God:  but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollution of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood"


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[prophet]

ICor.10:19-22"What say I then, that the idol is anything, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is anything?
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
Do we provoke the Lord to Jealousy?  are we stronger than He?"

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[rsc2a]

Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that

 

[graceandtruth]

Bottom line is, Idolatry and things sacrificed unto idols is what we are supposed to be abstaining from.  The scriptures don't say 'unless a certain ethnic group gets offended'.
It is very basic Christianity.  But our society in The U.S. is so conformed to this present world's 'political correctness', that  Christians are gnashed on with teeth if they call idolatry 'idolatry'.
If your rhythm pattern was borrowed from witchcraft, idolatry, or elevators, you might have a problem.


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So what do we do with the fact that all music has its origins in paganism and elevators?  So does that make all music problematic?

 

[prophet]

Bottom line is, Idolatry and things sacrificed unto idols is what we are supposed to be abstaining from.  The scriptures don't say 'unless a certain ethnic group gets offended'.
It is very basic Christianity.  But our society in The U.S. is so conformed to this present world's 'political correctness', that  Christians are gnashed on with teeth if they call idolatry 'idolatry'.
If your rhythm pattern was borrowed from witchcraft, idolatry, or elevators, you might have a problem.


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So what do we do with the fact that all music has its origins in paganism and elevators?  So does that make all music problematic?

yes

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[graceandtruth]

Incidentally, this is not worship music, not by a long shot. It's totally secular in a steampunk SF kind of way. But I wonder what y'all might make of it:

http://youtu.be/dDRHx4cPgbE

Turn up to 1080P if your system can handle it!

Made me want to follow the yellow brick road.....LOL.....I don't think that's a sin yet. 
Not worship music but quite enjoyable.

 

[Just John]

Incidentally, this is not worship music, not by a long shot. It's totally secular in a steampunk SF kind of way. But I wonder what y'all might make of it:

http://youtu.be/dDRHx4cPgbE

Turn up to 1080P if your system can handle it!

Oh I would TOTALLY have them at my church! 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.  I believe I see a fundamental flaw in the recent arguments.

All music does not originate from the worship of idols.  Music exists in heaven and was given to man with which to worship God.  Satan then corrupts that which God has given us to use to worship Him.  Even the pagan rituals of the world began with truth (Sumerian writings indicate a garden of Eden and the world destroyed by flood and a lamb as the sacrifice for man - Egyptian religion surrounds resurrection - The Romans learned from the Etruscans that a lamb is the sacrifice for man - etc, etc, etc.)  Good was not gleaned from evil.  Evil is the corruption of good.  Grape juice is good, corrupted, it becomes wine which stirreth itself aright and is forbidden by God.

Before assuming that Abraham learned everything he knew from the wickedness of Sumerian civilization, remember that Noah was still alive during the days of Abraham.  Their life spans crossed each other.  It is not a bad assumption to gather that truth had remained and Abraham had been taught correctly how to worship God which was in stark contrast to the human sacrifice atop the ziggaraut.

 

[graceandtruth]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.  I believe I see a fundamental flaw in the recent arguments.

All music does not originate from the worship of idols.  Music exists in heaven and was given to man with which to worship God.  Satan then corrupts that which God has given us to use to worship Him.  Even the pagan rituals of the world began with truth (Sumerian writings indicate a garden of Eden and the world destroyed by flood and a lamb as the sacrifice for man - Egyptian religion surrounds resurrection - The Romans learned from the Etruscans that a lamb is the sacrifice for man - etc, etc, etc.)  Good was not gleaned from evil.  Evil is the corruption of good.  Grape juice is good, corrupted, it becomes wine which stirreth itself aright and is forbidden by God.

Before assuming that Abraham learned everything he knew from the wickedness of Sumerian civilization, remember that Noah was still alive during the days of Abraham.  Their life spans crossed each other.  It is not a bad assumption to gather that truth had remained and Abraham had been taught correctly how to worship God which was in stark contrast to the human sacrifice atop the ziggaraut.

I think you are stretching a little my brother to hypothesize that Abraham was the only Syrian in his family that for some reason had it right without any biblical support.  His calling by God was not based on merit but grace which presupposes that like the rest of us Abraham was a pagan like all the rest of his family.

I can understand and agree with your reference to other religions mention of Eden/Paradise, flood, etc.  They are corruptions of the truth.  However, these mentions are as devoid of sheet music as the Scriptures are.  Considering the first mention of musical instruments indicates that the children of Cain were making them I do not think your argument is founded in Scripture.  In Genesis 4:21 it was the pagan Jubal who was the father of all who played the harp and organ.  Clearly music has pagan foundations because all humans begin life as pagans by default.  This would be especially true of American music of all genres that has no resemblance to the Middle Eastern music styles of Israel or their Arab brothers, which for the record or both pagan for the most part as they reject the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[rsc2a]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.  I believe I see a fundamental flaw in the recent arguments.

All music does not originate from the worship of idols.  Music exists in heaven and was given to man with which to worship God.  Satan then corrupts that which God has given us to use to worship Him.  Even the pagan rituals of the world began with truth (Sumerian writings indicate a garden of Eden and the world destroyed by flood and a lamb as the sacrifice for man - Egyptian religion surrounds resurrection - The Romans learned from the Etruscans that a lamb is the sacrifice for man - etc, etc, etc.)  Good was not gleaned from evil.  Evil is the corruption of good.

I generally agree with you up to here.

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]Grape juice is good, corrupted, it becomes wine which stirreth itself aright and is forbidden by God.[/quote]

This is crazy, completely un-Scriptural, and a topic for another thread.

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]Before assuming that Abraham learned everything he knew from the wickedness of Sumerian civilization, remember that Noah was still alive during the days of Abraham.  Their life spans crossed each other.  It is not a bad assumption to gather that truth had remained and Abraham had been taught correctly how to worship God which was in stark contrast to the human sacrifice atop the ziggaraut.[/quote]

We are explicitly told that Abram's father was a pagan.

 

[prophet]

Abram was a Chaldean, not a Syrian.  His dad took him to Syria, then died there.
With that said, I would be more inclined to think that Egyptian music had become the staple, if I believed that your music is derived from your neighbors.
I moved to Lowell, a farm community @16, and heard country music all the time I lived there. Didn't make me hate it any less, or hate So.Gosp. any less.
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[Binaca Chugger]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.  I believe I see a fundamental flaw in the recent arguments.

All music does not originate from the worship of idols.  Music exists in heaven and was given to man with which to worship God.  Satan then corrupts that which God has given us to use to worship Him.  Even the pagan rituals of the world began with truth (Sumerian writings indicate a garden of Eden and the world destroyed by flood and a lamb as the sacrifice for man - Egyptian religion surrounds resurrection - The Romans learned from the Etruscans that a lamb is the sacrifice for man - etc, etc, etc.)  Good was not gleaned from evil.  Evil is the corruption of good.

I generally agree with you up to here.

Well, well. 

Clearly music has pagan foundations because all humans begin life as pagans by default.  This would be especially true of American music of all genres that has no resemblance to the Middle Eastern music styles of Israel or their Arab brothers, which for the record or both pagan for the most part as they reject the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I reject the notion that all music has pagan foundations.  In Revelation we see that there is singing in heaven.  In Psalms we are instructed to sing praises to God.  In Deuteronomy we are instructed to teach our children about God and His works through song.  I reject the notion that God would need to borrow from Satan a method by which to praise Him on earth and in heaven.  I reject the notion that God would need to learn from Satan how to train children to walk in His ways.  I believe that Satan corrupts what God intended for our good (If you don't like the alcohol example, use the sex example) and uses it to draw us away from relationship with God.

I believe that music can speak to the emotion, mind and body.  Music that affects the body first, is typically that which is associated with the deeds of the flesh, or the carnal man.  Music that affects the mind and emotion can be either carnal or spiritual.  This position, apparently, leaves some room for worldwide cultural backgrounds, associations and personal interpretation.  I also believe that separation is a key issue taught throughout the Bible, and should be used in our music as well as other areas of life.

Hence, I maintain that we ought to strive to praise and worship God through music that speaks to the mind and emotion, but not the body and is not a style that is associated with the works of unrighteousness. 

 

[Castor Muscular]

Grape juice is good, corrupted, it becomes wine which stirreth itself aright and is forbidden by God.

I know this is best left for another thread, but...

Aw...isn't that cute.  BUT IT'S WRONG! 

But It's WRONG!!!

Grapes are "corrupted" on the vine.  Grapes are covered in yeast.  So grape juice starts out corrupted.  There are two ways to purify grape juice.  You can pasteurize it and seal it (like Welch's) and then refrigerate it after you open it.  Nobody did that until the mid 1800s.  And it's only temporary, since you can let Welch's grape juice sit out and it will collect yeast from the air and ferment. 

Or, you can make grape juice, put it in a wine skin (as they did in Biblical times) and let the yeast eat the sugars in the grape juice (ferment), which produces alcohol, which eventually kills the yeast and purifies the grape juice (which is now wine). 

So grape juice has the yeast corruption that represents sin. 

Wine is purified from the sin. 

If your church serves grape juice for the communion, they might as well serve leavened bread, too, so that the whole Lord's supper is drenched in symbolic sin. 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Right - the alcohol debate belongs in a different thread. 

Interestingly, once again, those who have been more open to a broad approach to styles and genres for worship have a broad approach to many issues.  Maybe this really is a desire for separation thing.

 

[rsc2a]

Right - the alcohol debate belongs in a different thread. 

Interestingly, once again, those who have been more open to a broad approach to styles and genres for worship have a broad approach to many issues.  Maybe this really is a desire for separation thing.

There is also a difference in understanding the Bible doesn't give a prohibition on alcohol and being "all in" regarding alcohol consumption.

And regarding "those who have been more open to a broad approach to styles and genres for worship" having a "broad" approach to alcohol, there are some flavors of Christianity (e.g. Catholic, Orthodox, extremely conservative Presbyterian) that aren't even a little bit broad in their services yet agree with the historically accepted Church position that alcohol consumption is fine as long as it is moderation.

 

[Izdaari]

Incidentally, this is not worship music, not by a long shot. It's totally secular in a steampunk SF kind of way. But I wonder what y'all might make of it:

http://youtu.be/dDRHx4cPgbE

Turn up to 1080P if your system can handle it!

Oh I would TOTALLY have them at my church! 

They're very talented, for steampunk automatons. But being created by man rather than by God directly, I'm afraid they don't have a sense of God as their Creator, nor... probably... do they have souls.

And the lyrics aren't anything like worshipful, but rather deliciously ironic in a film noir sort of way, and the song is in a key that matches that. The music style however... I think that could be adapted for worship.

:-*

 

[graceandtruth]

I reject the notion that all music has pagan foundations.  In Revelation we see that there is singing in heaven.  In Psalms we are instructed to sing praises to God.  In Deuteronomy we are instructed to teach our children about God and His works through song.  I reject the notion that God would need to borrow from Satan a method by which to praise Him on earth and in heaven.  I reject the notion that God would need to learn from Satan how to train children to walk in His ways.  I believe that Satan corrupts what God intended for our good (If you don't like the alcohol example, use the sex example) and uses it to draw us away from relationship with God.

I believe that music can speak to the emotion, mind and body.  Music that affects the body first, is typically that which is associated with the deeds of the flesh, or the carnal man.  Music that affects the mind and emotion can be either carnal or spiritual.  This position, apparently, leaves some room for worldwide cultural backgrounds, associations and personal interpretation.  I also believe that separation is a key issue taught throughout the Bible, and should be used in our music as well as other areas of life.

Hence, I maintain that we ought to strive to praise and worship God through music that speaks to the mind and emotion, but not the body and is not a style that is associated with the works of unrighteousness.

How do you reconcile your rejection of the human and therefore pagan element in all music with this from Scripture:  "And his brother's name was Jubal:  he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ."  Genesis 4:21  This is clearly the first mention of music in Scripture and Jubal is clearly a descendent of Cain. Don't forget that nasty little hermeneutical principle of "first mention". 

Your attempt to discredit this argument by indicating that if it is true that God would have to borrow from Satan is not applicable.  Music is not something that fell from heaven or ascended from the pit.  Music springs from the hearts of humans as worship does.  In the unredeemed the music points to a worship of humanity or their other pagan gods.  In the redeemed the music points to the worship of God or the enjoyment of the things that God has given.  God does not borrow from the devil for music.  God simply changes the heart of the person who is producing the music.

Now back to Genesis 4:21...........

 

[Fresh Air]

How do you reconcile your rejection of the human and therefore pagan element in all music with this from Scripture:  "And his brother's name was Jubal:  he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ."  Genesis 4:21  This is clearly the first mention of music in Scripture and Jubal is clearly a descendent of Cain. Don't forget that nasty little hermeneutical principle of "first mention". 

Your attempt to discredit this argument by indicating that if it is true that God would have to borrow from Satan is not applicable.  Music is not something that fell from heaven or ascended from the pit.  Music springs from the hearts of humans as worship does.  In the unredeemed the music points to a worship of humanity or their other pagan gods.  In the redeemed the music points to the worship of God or the enjoyment of the things that God has given.  God does not borrow from the devil for music.  God simply changes the heart of the person who is producing the music.

Now back to Genesis 4:21...........

Music pre-dates Genesis 4.21:

Job 38.6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

[graceandtruth]

How do you reconcile your rejection of the human and therefore pagan element in all music with this from Scripture:  "And his brother's name was Jubal:  he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ."  Genesis 4:21  This is clearly the first mention of music in Scripture and Jubal is clearly a descendent of Cain. Don't forget that nasty little hermeneutical principle of "first mention". 

Your attempt to discredit this argument by indicating that if it is true that God would have to borrow from Satan is not applicable.  Music is not something that fell from heaven or ascended from the pit.  Music springs from the hearts of humans as worship does.  In the unredeemed the music points to a worship of humanity or their other pagan gods.  In the redeemed the music points to the worship of God or the enjoyment of the things that God has given.  God does not borrow from the devil for music.  God simply changes the heart of the person who is producing the music.

Now back to Genesis 4:21...........

Music pre-dates Genesis 4.21:

Job 38.6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I agree that Job is the oldest book but Cain's descendants preceded Job.  I am also referencing music on earth not in heaven but from this text all I can tell is that they were singing.  I do not see any mention of music.  Now over in Genesis 4:21 I do not see singing but I do see music.