Music in Ministry

[graceandtruth]

Yet, some stimuli will produce the same effects in just about everybody.  This is why certain music is played on TV or movies to produce an emotional response to coincide with the scene.

Cannot the the style, meter and wording of the Psalms tell us much about the music God desire from us?  Does anyone have an example of the Hebrew's musical style?

Your statement bout stimuli is not correct when it comes to music.  I could listen to the Beatles all day and the only sinful thought that would come to mind is smashing someone else's cd.  I could listen to hard rock all day and I would never think about drinking, drug use, or immorality.  The only possible sin I could be moved to is thinking I am superior because I know what music is and they don't...lol.  As a matter of fact I could listen to Marvin Gay's "Sexual Healing" all day and I still would not be tempted to sin.  I would be thinking of my wife and no one else.  I think this has something to do with being a new creature in Christ.  Now I would readily admit that the songs of the Beatles, Marvin Gay, and Iron Maiden are not worship music but still they do not illicit an ungodly response from me.  Now I also do not hesitate that it may in some people so we are again at the juncture of culture and personal preference determining genre choices.

I don't think you would be happy with the Hebrew/Syrian music style.  You would not be able to find one song in one hymnal that matches it.  You would find it very difficult to sing because Hebrew word and sentence structure is totally different from English.  You would also be promoting the Islamic lifestyle because it would sound just like the singing of the Islamic nations since Hebrew and Arabic are so similar that my son who is an Arabic linguist says that he can understand classical Hebrew as well as classical Arabic because the languages are almost identical without having been taught Hebrew.  Again we are back to a cultural rule of thumb and not a biblical declaration to determine what music will be used in the worship of God.

You also said that music like sex is a gift from God that has been corrupted by Satan.  I don't think this line of reasoning supports your argument.  The Bible clearly forbids such things as pornography, fornication, adultery, etc. but there is no clear declaration that a music genre is wrong or cannot be used in the worship of God.  You have reference texts that use ambiguous terms that can and are often interpreted subjectively like carnal, worldly, etc.  This again brings us back to a subjective and experiential standard for music and not a biblical text driven standard which naturally results in a standard based on culture and personal preference which is evident throughout the IFB ranks.

Let me illustrate.  If I went to Jamaica I would expect to find the Jamaicans worshipping God with a style of music that sounds like Reggae.  If they were instead singing songs in the style of "Soul-stirring Songs and Hymns" I would know that someone went there to Americanize instead of evangelize the people of the island and it was working.  If they were singing songs instead in the Jamaican music style it would indicate that someone has brought them the Gospel and allowed God to direct them in their worship of Him and God has lead them to worship them in the language that He has given them and the musical style He has given them.  I would not expect to see the sensual dance moves that the islands are known for but I would not expect to see them stand stoically as the worship God in song.  Now would most IFBers be uncomfortable in such a meeting?  Yes.  Would there be anything that can be declared wrong with their actions from Scripture?  No, or at least no one has been able to provide the Scripture in this thread.  Again we are faced with culture and personal preference being the guide.

There are no Scriptures that define how music should sound in our worship of God. None. I gave up trying to stand against music I didn't like a long time ago. I couldn't honestly make a Scriptural case against it! So I changed. You should to. I suspect you're really the one the with a problem. I've been surprised at what type of music has actually inspired me to worship! To me it's all about the words and the sincerity to express the desire to please God! Nothing else!

 

Yesterday Castor and today you  .  I totally agree with you on this one. I am open for someone to provide Scripture that establishes which genres are wrong but to this point no one has done that. 

 

[Just me]

Some say that music falls into only two catagories worship or entertainment.  They reference Eph 5:19 when music is the topic.

 

[Agent P]

From Wikipedia:


I'm hesitant to contradict anyone named Johann Joseph Fux, but every perfect authentic cadence includes a tritone (which resolves to the tonic, which is why it's a perfect authentic cadence).  Since the perfect authentic cadence is by far the most common chord progression in western music, I'd wager that the devil is in every piece of music you enjoy today, including most hymns (some use plagal cadences) and praise and worship music.

You can emphasize the tritone in order to make it sound dissonant, but even melodies based on the tritone do not necessariliy sound "oppressive" or "evil".  For example, the first two notes in the song Maria (from West Side Story) are a tritone.

I'm hesitant to contradict anyone named Johann Joseph Fux

Funniest thing all day!

Now I am going to need to get a better connection so I can find out what all that sounds like.  Not being a musician myself, I have no idea just by reading it.

For an example of the tritone, listen to the opening chords of Jimi Hendrix's "Purple Haze".  Those are tritones.

 

[Fresh Air]

Languages are emotional. Some music doesn't invoke any emotional response! To say that music is somehow more emotion evoking than language itself .....is self serving. Evil communications exist apart from their use in music.

Completely agreed - which is precisely my point. Not all language is acceptable for the Christian to listen to and/or use. That is true whether the communication is in the form of words or music or amslam, for that matter. Thus, not all music styles are acceptable for the Christian to listen to/use either.

 

[Recovering IFB]

Thus, not all music styles are acceptable for the Christian to listen to/use either.

Chapter and verse please.

 

[christundivided]

Languages are emotional. Some music doesn't invoke any emotional response! To say that music is somehow more emotion evoking than language itself .....is self serving. Evil communications exist apart from their use in music.

Completely agreed - which is precisely my point. Not all language is acceptable for the Christian to listen to and/or use. That is true whether the communication is in the form of words or music or amslam, for that matter. Thus, not all music styles are acceptable for the Christian to listen to/use either.

I think you miss the point. The common thread is the words themselves. I have already said I reject some music due to the words in the music. You EXTEND this to "style" or genre.

For your comparison to be accurate, there would have to be certain languages styles you would reject. Is there some specific language that is not acceptable to you? I don't particularly like French. I believe its a little too "aloof" for my taste.... but to say its unacceptable to speak French all together is another story.

 

[Castor Muscular]

For an example of the tritone, listen to the opening chords of Jimi Hendrix's "Purple Haze".  Those are tritones.

Did you know you can sing the lyrics to Green Acres to the Purple Haze music and the lyrics fit perfectly?

 

[Reformed Guy]

What reason do you give for using the music in ministry you do?

We sing Psalms.  We sing Psalms because Scripture says to sing Psalms.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I believe there must be a Scriptural tool to use to help us understand what is accepted by a holy God in worship of Him.  God has been very specific in His call to holiness and worshiping Him in the beauty of holiness (Ps 96:9).

Psalm 96 is a Psalm about worshiping Him in His infinite glory, not a mandate on how and what.

So you believe God desires to be worshiped in carnality?  Read Amos and get back to me.

I want to know how you came to that conclusion from Ps 96:6

This passage is telling us how to approach a holy God, not just that God is holy.  One of the great themes of Leviticus is "Be ye holy as I am Holy saith the Lord."  Part of Ps 96 is telling us about the wonder of God, part is telling us how to express that to God.

 

[Recovering IFB]

I believe there must be a Scriptural tool to use to help us understand what is accepted by a holy God in worship of Him.  God has been very specific in His call to holiness and worshiping Him in the beauty of holiness (Ps 96:9).

Psalm 96 is a Psalm about worshiping Him in His infinite glory, not a mandate on how and what.

So you believe God desires to be worshiped in carnality?  Read Amos and get back to me.

I want to know how you came to that conclusion from Ps 96:6

This passage is telling us how to approach a holy God, not just that God is holy.  One of the great themes of Leviticus is "Be ye holy as I am Holy saith the Lord."  Part of Ps 96 is telling us about the wonder of God, part is telling us how to express that to God.

I agree with you that we cant come to God in our carnality, that's a given. But I don't see a mandate for type/genre of music that we bring to God. Being a Psalm, I always believed that it was a book of poetry/worship not instruction to worship....We are sinful people in need of Christ, we come on our knees, asking for forgiveness, sing praises and adoration to Him.
I listen to all kinds of music(except country) When I came out of IFB we used a piano for all of our music and took some getting used to listening to all the instruments( guitars, drums, piano, bass and other things) we have alot of talented people at our church. It is very understated, never too loud and always hymns. I was always told that worship was to be stoic, but I don't worship like that anymore.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

There are no Scriptures that define how music should sound in our worship of God. None. I gave up trying to stand against music I didn't like a long time ago. I couldn't honestly make a Scriptural case against it! So I changed. You should to. I suspect you're really the one the with a problem. I've been surprised at what type of music has actually inspired me to worship! To me it's all about the words and the sincerity to express the desire to please God! Nothing else!

I didn't start the thread because I have a superiority complex.  Not sure how 1 Cor 7:40 applies to any of this.  Honest truth is, I never understood many of the sermons on music.  I came to a decision for my self many years ago that was very staunch.  Since leaving the NADD (That portion of the IFB that claims they are not a denomination but really are), I have had to re-challenge many of my positions.  Many churches I have attended have different positions on music.  This thread is a good opportunity for my beliefs to be challenged by others outside my realm and reinforced by others from my background (though I have been surprised by their silence).  Thank you for participating.

I don't think I am drawing extremes.  I have heard some pretty crazy stuff in churches, even obvious attempts at sensual music and dance on stage to promote the message of Christ.  I have been in services where even modern songs were played such as Bryan Adams "Everything I Do."  The congregation was told to sing it to Jesus.  C'mon - A church promoting Bryan Adams?

Maybe this is my line:  I believe in sanctification and that part of sanctification is separation from the world.  The world, or the carnal man, is a Biblical term referring to that which does not promote God or that which promotes sin.  These are not ambiguous terms.  Even a casual student of the Bible understands this.  I believe as Christians we are to "come out from among them and be ye separate," and to be a "peculiar people, wholly separated unto the Lord."  I believe God is holy and demands that we worship him without carnality or known sin (see Amos, Leviticus or the Lord's Supper).

I then take these beliefs to the field of music because music plays an integral part in the worship of God.  If I believe in such separation to properly worship God, why would I want to use music style that is commonly associated with illicit sex, drugs, violence or evil to worship God?

I could listen to hard rock all day and I would never think about drinking, drug use, or immorality.

C'mon, man!  Really?  Next you will be telling me that you could go to Spring Break at Daytona Beach and not have one lustful glance or thought.  Some years ago, I got in a car that was playing "Sweating Bullets" by Metallica.  It really freaked me out.  There was a day I had sung that with pleasure, but after Christ......  no way.  Music does impact us.  It does influence us.  It is a very powerful medium by which to convey a message.  I don't know the science behind it, but I know it does.

I don't think you would be happy with the Hebrew/Syrian music style.

Your argument here makes a lot of sense.  I have often wondered what it sounded like when the Hebrews sang the Psalms.  I have also often wondered what the music of Ancient Egypt sounded like.  I think it would be very interesting to compare the two.

You also said that music like sex is a gift from God that has been corrupted by Satan.  I don't think this line of reasoning supports your argument.

This is purely my reasoning.  That it is a gift that God has given us.  Though sex is a type and music is intended for worship.  My reasoning is that if it God intended for us to use it to worship Him, Satan would probably attempt to distort it.

The only reference I can find of God being displeased with music is in Ex 32 when He is angry at the entire worship, of which the singing of Egypt is a part.

This again brings us back to a subjective and experiential standard for music and not a biblical text driven standard which naturally results in a standard based on culture and personal preference which is evident throughout the IFB ranks.

But I think that the issue of separation does play a role.  This does bring us back to a subjective decision of what should or should not be used in worship.  Your illustration of the mission field makes sense.  Also, what some used to consider wrong might not now have the same associations.  Still, there should be a separation from the world system.

As to all the "Purple Haze" references......Must have been before my time or out of my genres.  Not familiar with it.  Sorry.



What about contrasting the MELODY of Eph 5:19 with the CRIES OF MASTERY in Ex 32?  Would not this provide us with some guidelines?

 

[groupie]

Music is neither immoral or moral. It is amoral.

Its the words that make it world and wrong.

If the words praise the Lord, then the music {beat, speed, tone, genre etc}, instruments, hair length on the singers etc. don't matter.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I believe there must be a Scriptural tool to use to help us understand what is accepted by a holy God in worship of Him.  God has been very specific in His call to holiness and worshiping Him in the beauty of holiness (Ps 96:9).

Psalm 96 is a Psalm about worshiping Him in His infinite glory, not a mandate on how and what.

So you believe God desires to be worshiped in carnality?  Read Amos and get back to me.

I want to know how you came to that conclusion from Ps 96:6

This passage is telling us how to approach a holy God, not just that God is holy.  One of the great themes of Leviticus is "Be ye holy as I am Holy saith the Lord."  Part of Ps 96 is telling us about the wonder of God, part is telling us how to express that to God.

I agree with you that we cant come to God in our carnality, that's a given. But I don't see a mandate for type/genre of music that we bring to God. Being a Psalm, I always believed that it was a book of poetry/worship not instruction to worship....We are sinful people in need of Christ, we come on our knees, asking for forgiveness, sing praises and adoration to Him.
I listen to all kinds of music(except country) When I came out of IFB we used a piano for all of our music and took some getting used to listening to all the instruments( guitars, drums, piano, bass and other things) we have alot of talented people at our church. It is very understated, never too loud and always hymns. I was always told that worship was to be stoic, but I don't worship like that anymore.

The Psalms teach us how to express to God His glory in worship and praise.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]

I don't think you would be happy with the Hebrew/Syrian music style.

Your argument here makes a lot of sense.[/quote]

And, right here, you just destroyed your own argument. You (implicitly) agree that music (and the emotive response) is largely cultural. Ergo, a particular melody or instrument arrangement cannot be intrinsically more moral (or immoral) than another without appealing to your own cultural baggage, baggage that another may not be carrying around.

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]I have often wondered what it sounded like when the Hebrews sang the Psalms.  I have also often wondered what the music of Ancient Egypt sounded like.  I think it would be very interesting to compare the two.[/quote]

They were likely very similar.

 

[Just me]

The effect of music can be seen in the Scriptures:
1. In 2 Chronicles 5:11-14 it was after the music played and the people sang that the Glory of the Lord filled the house of God.
2. In Isaiah 30:29-32 they sang and played and God acted
3. The Spirit of God came upon Saul as the music was played. 1 Samuel 10:5-11
4. In 1 Samuel 16:14-23 the evil spirit fled from Saul with the playing of David's harp.
5. In 2 Kings 3:14-15 Gods hand came upon Elisha just from the playing of music
6. In Acts 16:25-28 God acted while Paul and Silas were singing.

 

[rsc2a]

The effect of music can be seen in the Scriptures:
1. In 2 Chronicles 5:11-14 it was after the music played and the people sang that the Glory of the Lord filled the house of God.
2. In Isaiah 30:29-32 they sang and played and God acted
3. The Spirit of God came upon Saul as the music was played. 1 Samuel 10:5-11
4. In 1 Samuel 16:14-23 the evil spirit fled from Saul with the playing of David's harp.
5. In 2 Kings 3:14-15 Gods hand came upon Elisha just from the playing of music
6. In Acts 16:25-28 God acted while Paul and Silas were singing.

Should I now outline how the effect of bathing can be seen in Scripture?

 

[Just me]

The effect of music can be seen in the Scriptures:
1. In 2 Chronicles 5:11-14 it was after the music played and the people sang that the Glory of the Lord filled the house of God.
2. In Isaiah 30:29-32 they sang and played and God acted
3. The Spirit of God came upon Saul as the music was played. 1 Samuel 10:5-11
4. In 1 Samuel 16:14-23 the evil spirit fled from Saul with the playing of David's harp.
5. In 2 Kings 3:14-15 Gods hand came upon Elisha just from the playing of music
6. In Acts 16:25-28 God acted while Paul and Silas were singing.

Should I now outline how the effect of bathing can be seen in Scripture?

What ever floats your boat

 

[Pastor Marty]

Not all emotions are right for the child of God and thus not all music is right for the child of God. One of the ways you identify wrong music is you look at the morality (manners) of the people who sing/listen to it, as well as what it speaks to your own heart/mind/body as you listen to it.

Objective vs subjective argument. There are immoral people who sing gospel and moral people who sing rock. Did the music produce the result?

 

[Fresh Air]

Chapter and verse please.

<facepalm>

Uh, I gave one. The explanation you just read is the reasoning behind why I believe that chapter/verse teaches that.

 

[Fresh Air]

4. In 1 Samuel 16:14-23 the evil spirit fled from Saul with the playing of David's harp.

...and the boom is lowered on the a-moral music crowd. There were NO lyrics, yet something in that music was so (morally) good the evil spirit fled. Huh - imagine that...