The Machine Model in Medicine

[Ekklesian]

but i don;t believe you have any idea what the bible says

And you appeal precious little to the Bible.

Let me rephrase the question, but don't bother responding if you can't remove yourself from the equation.

Was the church in the First Century equipped to minister to diseases of the soul?

 

[aleshanee]

Did you read the article?

not the whole thing.... and why should i?...... . i read enough to know it;s nothing more than another "woe is me... i never should have gone into the medical field" article.... of which i have seen enough of already... . and which was selected no doubt because you feel it backs up your obvious disdain for the medical field ...... however - i was briefly interested in what it had to say about the problems current insurance laws have caused..... but all i saw on that subject were tons of complaints and few solutions...... having obviously been written to make the writer feel exhonerated.. ... who is - i noticed - another oncologist ...same specialty as the other doctor who wrote your "machine model in medicine" article...and who has also authored multiple articles on how bad things in his field of medicine....

i have no doubt oncology can be a very depressing field.. ... but how can a doctor be of any help to his patients if he can;t even help himself? ..it takes a very special kind of doctor to be good at it and be inspired to excell at it........ .doctors who aspire to the field they enter don;t usually complain about how miserable they are... but those who land in a field they didn;t aspire to complain all the time... . and that;s true of any profession. .. ... .i have no time for reading garbage like that... ..

And you appeal precious little to the Bible. <- - your personal demented thoughts and opinions ..mr ekklesian.. are not the bible

Let me rephrase the question, but don't bother responding if you can't remove yourself from the equation.

Was the church in the First Century equipped to minister to diseases of the soul?

what is your definition of a "disease of the soul?"...... from what i have read - you have such a broad definition that it could include anything and everything in medicine you don;t understand... ....and rephrase the question all you want but you seem to have forgotten that you attempting to advise me on my own mental health issues is how this all started.... .... ..and... since you have already proven to me you are completely ignorant of medicine... and that includes mental health medicine... as far as i am concerned you can gather up this and all your other baited traps - then take another posters advice and go take a flying leap....

 

[Ekklesian]

you attempting to advise me on my own mental health issues is how this all started...

LOL. I never attempted to advise you.

I just asked if you ever tried praying during your waking nightmares, and if you thought it helped. You said, your dreams were practically over before you knew what was going on, but that you did pray when you realized it, and you said you thought it helped a little.

But what you described about your dreams doesn't sound like the type of waking dreams I've heard about, or that are described in the documentary I referenced, or in the video you posted, which was clearly describing a demonic manifestation.

Then you asked me what I would pray. And I told you that I've often invoked the name of Jesus in bad dreams.

None of my questions were designed to advise. I wanted info. And I warned you, that if you wanted to engage me in this discussion that I wouldn't simply uncritically accept all your conclusions.

And that's what's goading you.

 

[Ekklesian]

But if anything I said could even be construed as offering advice, then you were merely advised to pray. That's all. [Oh the horror!]

No one said stop seeing your doctors. No one said stop taking your pills.

[sarcasm. not medical advice]Maybe ask your doc about adding a chill pill to your regimen.[/sarcasm. not medical advice]

 

[Ekklesian]

what is your definition of a "disease of the soul?"...... from what i have read - you have such a broad definition that it could include anything and everything in medicine you don;t understand... ....and rephrase the question all you want but you seem to have forgotten that you attempting to advise me on my own mental health issues is how this all started.... .... ..and... since you have already proven to me you are completely ignorant of medicine... and that includes mental health medicine... as far as i am concerned you can gather up this and all your other baited traps - then take another posters advice and go take a flying leap....

LOL. You're just mad because you don't get to render the first century church irrelevant because they didn't have an MRI.

An example of a disease of the soul is fear. doubt. etc.

But before we go any further, do you even believe in a soul? If so, what is it?

 

[Bob Jones VI]

that;s funny... coz nobody here thinks you are..... so far you have scored a big fat zero with everybody here...... put that in your pipe and smoke it ... loser....

I rarely pay any attention to anythng he posts. But you never know. He might say something of import one of these days. He argued some weird scientific point ad nauseum a few years ago, so weird I can't even remember what it was about. Maybe somethibg about vaccines or flat earth or 9-11 or Darwin, I just can't remember.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

But before we go any further, do you even believe in a soul? If so, what is it?

C’mon man…your questions are belittling. You know darn well that she believes in a soul and understands what it is.

 

[Ekklesian]

C’mon man…your questions are belittling.

Just serving what's getting passed around the table.

You know darn well that she ... understands what it is.

I would say most Christians haven't thought a lot about it, and that there is a wide disparity in their notions about the soul.

Don't be shy, join the conversation.

 

[aleshanee]

LOL. I never attempted to advise you.

I just asked if you ever tried praying during your waking nightmares, and if you thought it helped. You said, your dreams were practically over before you knew what was going on, but that you did pray when you realized it, and you said you thought it helped a little.

But what you described about your dreams doesn't sound like the type of waking dreams I've heard about, or that are described in the documentary I referenced, or in the video you posted, which was clearly describing a demonic manifestation.

Then you asked me what I would pray. And I told you that I've often invoked the name of Jesus in bad dreams.

None of my questions were designed to advise. I wanted info. And I warned you, that if you wanted to engage me in this discussion that I wouldn't simply uncritically accept all your conclusions.

And that's what's goading you.

tell your lies and play your word twisting games any way you want... it;s what you have a long history of doing on this forum.... (when you are not making disparaging comments about women) .... but you know you were trying to convince me i had some kind of demon problem... ..trash talking psychology and practically all psychologists as if they are a false field of study.....

exactly what that idiot itinerant preacher was doing here a few years ago... his medical and mental health philosphy was right out of the 1950s ..... the age of lock the mentally ill up and throw away the key... ...kinda strange how you pop up on the forum right after he disappears......

the both of you sound more like followers of the christian science cult in the tradition of marion baker eddy and phineous quimby than you do a baptist or any other denomination of christians i have ever heard of........ ....baker and quimby were obsessed with the first century church too and believed all diseases could be prayed away.... and that christians should shun modern medicine...

have you been spending time in christian science reading rooms lately?....... not attempting to advise you on whether you should or shouldn;t.. .... just saying... . your rotating and evolving collection of beliefs seem to line up with theirs quite often...

But if anything I said could even be construed as offering advice, then you were merely advised to pray. That's all. [Oh the horror!]

No one said stop seeing your doctors. No one said stop taking your pills.

[sarcasm. not medical advice]Maybe ask your doc about adding a chill pill to your regimen.[/sarcasm. not medical advice]

again.... more lies and word games... .you trash psychology immediately after i tell you i see a psychologist for counselling regularly and claim you were not trying to convince me i shouldn;t see one?....... in the first answer you claimed you never tried to advise me.... now in this one you admit you did.... but say you only advised me to pray... ..you can;t even keep it straight in your own head what you did yourself...... ....... and sarcasm?.......... i feel very sorry for anyone in your life ...or even in your vicinity who might be suffering a mental health problem.. sorry for any child too... ...you have spoken about more than one of them.. ... their mothers (these women you referred to as reptiles)... would be very wise to keep you away from them.......

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

Don't be shy, join the conversation.

I actually like the subject of the soul, so I’ll jump in later when I have time.

 

[Ekklesian]

tell your lies and play your word twisting games any way you want...

Anyone can read the interaction for himself starting right here

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

If I’m not mistaken, Ekk grew up in a charismatic church, which explains a lot of his worldview, particularly in the medical field

 

[aleshanee]

LOL. You're just mad because you don't get to render the first century church irrelevant because they didn't have an MRI.

An example of a disease of the soul is fear. doubt. etc.

But before we go any further, do you even believe in a soul? If so, what is it?

Just serving what's getting passed around the table.


I would say most Christians haven't thought a lot about it, and that there is a wide disparity in their notions about the soul.

serving what you cooked up and pass around the fff table all the time you mean....... ....i said it long ago when you and had our first exchanges - after you made degrading comments about girls i was in a group therapy with years ago.... girls you didn;t even know but had plenty of preconceived negative opinions about.... ..then you tried to call me a liar when i relayed more of their story trying to answer your sickening comments.... you are nothing but a punk.. ....... my mistake with you.. is and always has been responding to your questions and comments at all....... entertaining your sick penchant for playing these little games..... . ..

but don;t feel special or as if that happened because you came up with some profound idea i never heard before........ i answer people all the time about all kinds of subjects and in detail... without even intending to... and i frequently say things i should not and talk at length about things other people would keep quiet about...... i lost my ability to keep secrets and keep quiet when i testified in court as a child.... it;s a part of the legacy i was left with and have spoken about it here many times before.... ...it;s one reason my family... specifically my sister.... thinks i should not be on these forums at all... ... they haven;t right out told me to stop or pulled my access to the internet... .. but they could if they wanted to.....

 

[aleshanee]

Anyone can read the interaction for himself starting right here

yeah.... they can read it alright... . they can also see i told you then it seemed you were misunderstanding what i was trying to say..... and it only got worse after that........ now i believe you have been deliberately trying to twist and misrepresent the things i say.... it seems misreading what people say here and twisting their words is a talent of yours... .... the difference in me and most others here is they simply ignore you....... but i keep going. ....and you really enjoy playing off that defect in my ability to stop answering idiots and to just ignore them - don;t you......

 

[Ekklesian]

... but you know you were trying to convince me i had some kind of demon problem...

Not true.

..trash talking psychology and practically all psychologists as if they are a false field of study.....

Not once. I said psychologists aren't medical doctors like psychiatrists are, and can't medically treat a patient, and wouldn't be up on the constantly changing quasi-legal care protocols imposed on medical practioners. They can only counsel. You were trying to pit the medical Doctor who penned the article I cited against the ostensibly superior medical knowledge of your sister, who is not a medical doctor. I basically said I had a better authority on the subject than you do.

exactly what that idiot itinerant preacher was doing here a few years ago... blah blah blah...<snip catty verbiage>


again.... more lies and word games... .you trash psychology immediately after i tell you i see a psychologist for counselling regularly and claim you were trying to convince me i shouldn;t see one?.......

Folks, this is me 'trashing' psychology:

I have great respect for the medical sciences, including psychiatry. I have a deep admiration for those who work to offer some kind of relief for those who are afflicted. It can't be denied that honest observation and exploration of the human psyche will yield keen insights into human behavior and the nature of the human mind. Jordan Peterson is one example. I listened to his seminar on Exodus, not for the theology, but for the psychology. I was enthralled by the parallels he drew between the observations of those in his discipline and of the biblical histories and the revelations in the law.

It also can't be denied that one's world view will determine one's interpretations of his observations and prescribe his treatments. I think the stories of shock therapies and lobotomies from the not too distant past should be ample warning to anyone to be wary of the degree of help to be found in those whose hearts may be in the right place, but who are bound by their Materialistic presuppositions.

in the first answer you claimed you never tried to advise me.... now in this one you admit you did....

LOL. That's quite the stretch there, Elastigirl, but it was just this kind of elasticity in reaching conclusions that are out of place I was recognizing in your claim that I was giving you advice.

but say you only advised me to pray... ..you can;t even keep it straight in your own head what you did yourself...... ....... and sarcasm?.......... i feel very sorry for anyone in your life ...or even in your vicinity who might be suffering a mental health problem.. sorry for any child too... ...you have spoken about more than one of them.. ... their mothers (these women you referred to as reptiles)... would be very wise to keep you away from them.......

I referred to no one as a reptile. I said my ex's mothering was reptilian. Q: How do most reptiles nurture their offspring? A: They don't.

Typical dame. Make the guy responsible for the woman's sins.

 

[aleshanee]

C’mon man…your questions are belittling. You know darn well that she believes in a soul and understands what it is.

thanks.... if he had ever read anything at all that i have written in the past he would know i absolutely believe in a soul... and absolutely know mine is saved....... i doubt i would be able to work on the street with homeless people sharing the gospel with them out of concern for their souls if i didn;t believe i had a soul too. ....if he knew anything about me and the ministries i am involved in he would have never asked such a belittling question.. ... but then again... i keep giving him the benefit of the doubt by saying that.. ... it;s possible that belittling others any way he can is simply what he is all about..... it makes him feel superior

I actually like the subject of the soul, so I’ll jump in later when I have time.

If I’m not mistaken, Ekk grew up in a charismatic church, which explains a lot of his worldview, particularly in the medical field

i didn;t know that.... but yes.... if it was a charismatic church connected to the christian science cult it could definitely explain a lot about his world view...... things he said in the other machine model thread about women in his life reveals something else about his upbringing... i don;t think his negative and disgusting attitudes towards women were all caused by things he experienced as an adult....... but i could be wrong.... some men are just like that for no reason... .. it;s one reason paul taught that some men should remain single and not interact with women...... .... ekk should have heeded pauls advice......

 

[Ekklesian]

serving what you cooked up and pass around the fff table all the time you mean....... ....i said it long ago when you and had our first exchanges - after you made degrading comments about girls i was in a group therapy with years ago.... girls you didn;t even know but had plenty of preconceived negative opinions about.... ..then you tried to call me a liar when i relayed more of their story trying to answer your sickening comments........... my mistake with you.. is and always has been ... responding to your questions and comments at all....... entertaining your sick penchant for playing these little games..... . ..

LOL. Okay. Ancient history here, but nevertheless victim to aleshanee revisionism:

I said nothing about the girls. I said the family fleeing the state to get away from an amorous youth minister makes me think the parents had some culpability. And it still does.

If I remember correctly, you were imagining a vast underground human trafficking network connecting the IFBs, and cited this family having to flee the state as proof of it's existence.

 

[Ekklesian]

If I’m not mistaken, Ekk grew up in a charismatic church, which explains a lot of his worldview, particularly in the medical field

What is my world view, particularly in the medical field?

And please post a pic of your legs. I think everyone would be interested in the aparatus enabling your leaps to conclusions residing on the dark side of the moon.

aleshanee, when you hang your trousers out to dry, do the cuffs reach the sidewalk 29 floors below?

 

[aleshanee]

Not true.

wrong... .it;s very true.....

Not once. I said psychologists aren't medical doctors like psychiatrists are, and can't medically treat a patient, and wouldn't be up on the constantly changing quasi-legal care protocols imposed on medical practioners. They can only counsel. You were trying to pit the medical Doctor who penned the article I cited against the ostensibly superior medical knowledge of your sister, who is not a medical doctor. I basically said I had a better authority on the subject than you do.

your opinion of psychology came through loud and clear.... just as it has come through in the posts you have made since then...... you consider psychology part of the "machine model" ideology on the human existence.... which you have repeatedly denounced and declared false.....

and for your information psychology is just one of the many tools my sister uses in her work... her education has been continual as her career progressed.... part of that education was also medical training... .. ..but in her job she is listed as an expert in signals intelligence and counter terrorism/insurgency... . .her company specializes in close protection of vips and other people at high risk of attack... they make sure these people can travel safely through dangerous parts of the world......

you really know nothing about her but you continue to make lame proclamation as if you think you do.... .she has an office right here in this same apartment and i really wish she could come back on the forum and get involved in this herself... you would not get away with talking down to her like you are doing with me..... .... but in the last few years her work has kept her busy 24/7 so she has not time for this or for much of anything else... ... i spend a lot my time here making sure she has what she needs to keep going..... coffee.. ..meals and etc....

which reminds me...... don;t you have some robots to tend to?...... how does a guy maintain a full time job of such importance and still have so much time to post on this forum?....... you are not doing all this on company time are you?

Folks, this is me 'trashing' psychology:







LOL. That's quite the stretch there, Elastigirl, but it was just this kind of elasticity in reaching conclusions that are out of place I was recognizing in your claim that I was giving you advice.


I referred to no one as a reptile. I said my ex's mothering was reptilian. Q: How do most reptiles nurture their offspring? A: They don't.

Typical dame. Make the guy responsible for the woman's sins.

elastigirl... dame ... chick... did i miss any?.... you never seem to run out of new belittling names to call me.....and i am not the only one nor are those the only names... .... .. you referred to another girl you knew once as a "gal"... ..... you implied then denied you were referring to me as rosie odonnel type..... .. in the video of the girls being berated by a guy on a beach you called them lizzies.. said you saw "pudgy knees and fat ankles" .... you claim you only called one women reptilian but then call me a typical dame and accuse all women of trying to make you responsible for our sins.........

that;s only what comes to mind at the moment...... but there is much more on this forum posted by you that reveals a man with a very sick soul who has a disgusting attitude towards women.... .... you claim the label of misogynist is misapplied to you?..... i think it does not go far enough and fails to tell the whole story....... ...you need some serious help.... and you are obviously not getting it in this so called first century model church you imply you are a part of...... (do you even go to church?....i have never see you post about going to one).....

maybe you could benefit from seeing a psychologist... and no... according to your own standard i am not giving you advice... just making an observation based on information you have given me...... a psychiatrist could help to .. and no thats not advice either..... just another personal observation.....

 

[aleshanee]

LOL. Okay. Ancient history here, but nevertheless victim to aleshanee revisionism:

I said nothing about the girls. I said the family fleeing the state to get away from an amorous youth minister makes me think the parents had some culpability. And it still does.

If I remember correctly, you were imagining a vast underground human trafficking network connecting the IFBs, and cited this family having to flee the state as proof of it's existence.

lying again.... i never said anything about a "vast underground network" .... all i said was that their family didn;t want them exposed any longer to that one person - his friends and that church.... which was all in a small town... .... that;s what they said themselves in therapy.... and their family thought hawaii would be a good place to do that.. ..maybe they chose hawaii because they had other family connections here....better job offer... or maybe just liked the idea of starting over in paradise..... i really don;t know.... i didn;t know much about them outside that therapy group which i was only in a few times.... and i did not pretend to know in what i wrote.. ..

... but you made up an entire story of their familys culpability in what happened to them..... ..a very vile accusation... and without even knowing them or ever meeting them.. you imagined the worst... ....... . and you accuse me of being a revisionist?...... you are a revisionist in real time... . you change and alter what other people are telling you before they are even done telling it....... it seems you are not only a master of baiting people you are also a master at projection.......

i was right in what i said about you then and it still stands today... you are a punk who gets off by provoking and verbally abusing other people...... go play with your robots...... inanimate mechanical things like that are perfect for you.... probably your best friends....go preach to them and berate them for not having souls... . at least then you will be accurate in something you are saying......