Tales from the Tunnels

[Techmedic]

I suspect what happened was there was an awakening... You can hide and cover as much as you want... But once the spit hits the fan more than once... PPL tend to open their eyes.... Case in point, I read somewhere on here that the deacons over at FBCH said "We aren't covering up another one" (Talking about JS).

 

[Bravo]

In all fairness I do want to say that at the time of Dr Hyles death and the year soon after the old auditorium was packed!!! There was a lot of publicity of bro Hyles passing in the papers, even the Chicago ones and the news. There was also lot of sentimentality. At the time Bro Schaap taking over had a lot of the home town hero feel to it, at least to many of us. He was a beloved teacher at HAC. This is an honest assessment from that time I feel. From there you know the history.

 

[bgwilkinson]

The powers that be at that time knew about it, but we're helpless to stop it.

Appearance over substance. Then just deny, deny, deny.

Tell the parents you are doing something, then just pretend the problem is solved.

To which years are you referring?

I think mid nineties would be about right, about the time he went nuts over the magic blood theory and KJV onlyism, he was trying desperately to get the old mojo back, everything was falling apart, attendances were steadily declining, HB, the college and the church.

He didn't miss a single service at the old church downtown when I was there.....saying, "Even the president couldn't fill this auditorium every service."

Guess he got the big head too.......

For those of you who were there, do you think the decline in the ministries was caused by a failure to adapt or what. They used the same formula that had worked for over 30 yrs?
What happened?

Ok I'll take a stab at that.

When did the decline start?

In the mid 70s people were coming to HAC and FBCH in droves. They were coming in so fast we had to expand the auditorium to double the size. While this was being done we were meeting at the Hammond Civic Center, we were just about filling that building at times. When we move back to Sibley in 76 there was a problem finding seats after sunday school. This started several years of adding seating over the halls, extra chairs at row ends, the mezzanine, and finally the east and west overhang, at that point the building could hold just over 4,000 adults tightly packed in the pews.

Well we sure had lots of people, and it gave rise to Bro. Hyles many times making some fantastic statement about what he believed, he'd say, "if you don't like that there are", he would give a number of doors, it was not always the same, "take one of them and don't let it hit you on the back side on the way out". "Don't tell me you're leaving just sneak on out like a snake." He was adamant about it.

We had them coming in the front door so fast you wouldn't notice them going out the back door, as they got out of there, many of them were leaving when they could not handle the abrasive preaching.

We used to say, "come Sunday morning for a pat on the back, come Sunday night for a kick in the head".

Things were going great until Dave had his little problem. It was down hill from there, for many deacons and longtime church members, especially those whose children were involved with him.

This was the start of slow decline as long time inner circle members left and went elsewhere.

Next we had the VN-JN situation. We had many leave around this time. V. Glover, G. Godrey, A. Gomez, B. Weddle  C. W. Holmes, to name just a few, who were what Bro. Hyles always called inner circle people. These people that I have listed were his buddies and very close friends. These kind of people leaving your church will leave a hole that is not easily filled. These are among the finest people we had and I could go on and on listing them. They got too close to Bro. Hyles and saw the real Jack Hyles and when they saw that they were repulsed and sickened. Still the incoming was able to mask the out going.

It must be remembered that Bro. Hyles was constantly making speaking appearances across the country Mon. and Tues. nights, many times he gave a presentation or two on Wed morning before jumping on a jet to make it back just in time to speak in Hammond Wed night. Thurs. Morn. he would fly out again speaking Thurs. night Friday and Friday night then coming back for a meeting at Miller Hall Sat morning. Some times on Sat night he would go by van to a close location and make an additional presentation. The man was a speaking machine. He spoke at other churches way more than he ever spoke at the FBCH ministries.

Because of all of his appearances he was able to generate an enormous advertising and recruiting effect for HAC and the FBCH ministries thus stocking up the membership rolls to replace those going out the back door.

He was able to keep the furious pace until the 90s when his aortic valve started giving out, causing him to have pain and shortness of breath and at times total black-outs.

He had to cut back on the speaking engagements, he was very worried and we all knew it.

By this time it was into the 90s and you could easily see the decline in the college, HB  and in the FBCH attendance.

He would manipulate the number of chairs in the auditorium so as to always make it look like it was filled, you might call it the auditorium accordion affect.

He tried to regain some of his lost influence by announcing fantastic big days. 100,000 saved, Pentecost sundays, 25,000 baptism years, etc.

He also tried off-site Pastors' school meetings such as Gary Genesis center twice, Radison theater (it only holds about 3,000 in theater seats and is much larger volume wise than the old auditorium, so it looks like a huge crowd, in reality it's less than that that would fit in the old auditorium) and even that giant cattle barn, in Chicago, called the  International Amphitheatre. The arena was built for $1.5 million, by the Union Stock Yard Company, principally to host the International Livestock Exhibition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Amphitheatre

Many of us were sick for a week after breathing in all that livestock cow-pie dust.


He tried everything he could dream up to regain relevance. He even resurrected KJVO and the magic blood theory we first heard in the 1960s when he had  Ian Paisley the Northern Irish Presbyterian as a guest speaker on one Sunday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Paisley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Presbyterian_Church_of_Ulster

He made one Pastors' School as a catch-all I am a fundamentalists fundamentalist. It was called The Body the Book and the Blood. He went nuts proclaiming wild heresies such as Magic Blood and KJVO.

Jack Schaap officiated over what was nearly a Catholic mass with a Hyles-ology flavor. Complete with the sprinkling of the blood on the heavenly mercy seat, even though Christ finished it once for all on the cross.

I believe this was the last straw for the LORD, it was just a few years and God took him.

He went so far as to proclaim in one of his rants that he had the only true church.

Well that is when the decline accelerated and picked up speed. You could see it in the auditorium, you can count it in the year books of HB and the college, you still can. So many good people just melted away out the back door.

FBCH started to grow after he died. It was just a couple of years and we were packing out the auditorium again.

 

[Bruh]

The powers that be at that time knew about it, but we're helpless to stop it.

Appearance over substance. Then just deny, deny, deny.

Tell the parents you are doing something, then just pretend the problem is solved.

To which years are you referring?

I think mid nineties would be about right, about the time he went nuts over the magic blood theory and KJV onlyism, he was trying desperately to get the old mojo back, everything was falling apart, attendances were steadily declining, HB, the college and the church.

He didn't miss a single service at the old church downtown when I was there.....saying, "Even the president couldn't fill this auditorium every service."

Guess he got the big head too.......

For those of you who were there, do you think the decline in the ministries was caused by a failure to adapt or what. They used the same formula that had worked for over 30 yrs?
What happened?

Ok I'll take a stab at that.

When did the decline start?

In the mid 70s people were coming to HAC and FBCH in droves. They were coming in so fast we had to expand the auditorium to double the size. While this was being done we were meeting at the Hammond Civic Center, we were just about filling that building at times. When we move back to Sibley in 76 there was a problem finding seats after sunday school. This started several years of adding seating over the halls, extra chairs at row ends, the mezzanine, and finally the east and west overhang, at that point the building could hold just over 4,000 adults tightly packed in the pews.

Well we sure had lots of people, and it gave rise to Bro. Hyles many times making some fantastic statement about what he believed, he'd say, "if you don't like that there are", he would give a number of doors, it was not always the same, "take one of them and don't let it hit you on the back side on the way out". "Don't tell me you're leaving just sneak on out like a snake." He was adamant about it.

We had them coming in the front door so fast you wouldn't notice them going out the back door, as they got out of there, many of them were leaving when they could not handle the abrasive preaching.

Things were going great until Dave had his little problem. It was down hill from there, for many deacons and longtime church members, especially those whose children were involved with him.

This was the start of slow decline as long time inner circle members left and went elsewhere.

Next we had the VN-JN situation. We had many leave around this time. V. Glover, G. Godrey, A. Gomez, B. Weddle  to name just a few, who were what Bro. Hyles always called inner circle people. These people that I have listed were his buddies and very close friends. These kind of people leaving your church will leave a hole that is not easily filled. These are among the finest people we had and I could go on and on listing them. They got too close to Bro. Hyles and saw the real Jack Hyles and when they saw that they were repulsed and sickened. Still the incoming was able to mask the out going.

It must be remembered that Bro. Hyles was constantly making speaking appearances across the country Mon. and Tues. nights, many times he gave a presentation or two on Wed morning before jumping on a jet to make it back just in time to speak in Hammond Wed night. Thurs. Morn. he would fly out again speaking Thurs. night Friday and Friday night then coming back for a meeting at Miller Hall Sat morning. Some times on Sat night he would go by van to a close location and make an additional presentation. The man was a speaking machine. He spoke at other churches way more than he ever spoke at the FBCH ministries.

Because of all of his appearances he was able to generate an enormous advertising and recruiting effect for HAC and the FBCH ministries thus stocking up the membership rolls to replace those going out the back door.

He was able to keep the furious pace until the 90s when his aortic valve started giving out, causing him to have pain and shortness of breath and at times total black-outs.

He had to cut back on the speaking engagements, he was very worried and we all knew it.

By this time it was into the 90s and you could easily see the decline in the college, HB  and in the FBCH attendance.

He would manipulate the number of chairs in the auditorium so as to always make it look like it was filled, you might call it the auditorium accordion affect.

He tried to regain some of his lost influence by announcing fantastic big days. 100,000 saved, Pentecost sundays, 25,000 baptism years, etc.

He also tried off-site Pastors' school meetings such as Gary Genesis center twice, Radison theater (it only holds about 3,000 in theater seats and is much larger volume wise than the old auditorium, so it looks like a huge crowd, in reality it's less than that that would fit in the old auditorium) and even that giant cattle barn, in Chicago, called the  International Amphitheatre. The arena was built for $1.5 million, by the Union Stock Yard Company, principally to host the International Livestock Exhibition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Amphitheatre

Many of us were sick for a week after breathing in all that livestock cow-pie dust.


He tried everything he could dream up to regain relevance. He even resurrected KJVO and the magic blood theory we first heard in the 1960s when he had  Ian Paisley the Northern Irish Presbyterian as a guest speaker on one Sunday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Paisley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Presbyterian_Church_of_Ulster

He made one Pastors' School as a catch-all I am a fundamentalists fundamentalist. It was called The Body the Book and the Blood. He went nut proclaiming wild heresies such and Magic Blood and KJVO.

Jack Schaap officiated over what was nearly a Catholic mass with a Hyles-ology flavor. Complete with the sprinkling of the blood on the heavenly mercy seat, even though Christ finished it once for all on the cross.

I believe this was the last straw for the LORD, it was just a few years and God took him.

He went so far as to proclaim in one of his rants that he had the only true church.

Well that is when the decline accelerated and picked up speed. You could see it in the auditorium, you can count it in the year books of HB and the college, you still can. So many good people just melted away out the back door.

FBCH started to grow after he died. It was just a couple of years and we were packing out the auditorium again.

By the statement that is bold, it seems you are saying if he wouldn't of went crazy on a few things that the place would of kept growing?

 

[bgwilkinson]

The powers that be at that time knew about it, but we're helpless to stop it.

Appearance over substance. Then just deny, deny, deny.

Tell the parents you are doing something, then just pretend the problem is solved.

To which years are you referring?

I think mid nineties would be about right, about the time he went nuts over the magic blood theory and KJV onlyism, he was trying desperately to get the old mojo back, everything was falling apart, attendances were steadily declining, HB, the college and the church.

He didn't miss a single service at the old church downtown when I was there.....saying, "Even the president couldn't fill this auditorium every service."

Guess he got the big head too.......

For those of you who were there, do you think the decline in the ministries was caused by a failure to adapt or what. They used the same formula that had worked for over 30 yrs?
What happened?

Ok I'll take a stab at that.

When did the decline start?

In the mid 70s people were coming to HAC and FBCH in droves. They were coming in so fast we had to expand the auditorium to double the size. While this was being done we were meeting at the Hammond Civic Center, we were just about filling that building at times. When we move back to Sibley in 76 there was a problem finding seats after sunday school. This started several years of adding seating over the halls, extra chairs at row ends, the mezzanine, and finally the east and west overhang, at that point the building could hold just over 4,000 adults tightly packed in the pews.

Well we sure had lots of people, and it gave rise to Bro. Hyles many times making some fantastic statement about what he believed, he'd say, "if you don't like that there are", he would give a number of doors, it was not always the same, "take one of them and don't let it hit you on the back side on the way out". "Don't tell me you're leaving just sneak on out like a snake." He was adamant about it.

We had them coming in the front door so fast you wouldn't notice them going out the back door, as they got out of there, many of them were leaving when they could not handle the abrasive preaching.

Things were going great until Dave had his little problem. It was down hill from there, for many deacons and longtime church members, especially those whose children were involved with him.

This was the start of slow decline as long time inner circle members left and went elsewhere.

Next we had the VN-JN situation. We had many leave around this time. V. Glover, G. Godrey, A. Gomez, B. Weddle  to name just a few, who were what Bro. Hyles always called inner circle people. These people that I have listed were his buddies and very close friends. These kind of people leaving your church will leave a hole that is not easily filled. These are among the finest people we had and I could go on and on listing them. They got too close to Bro. Hyles and saw the real Jack Hyles and when they saw that they were repulsed and sickened. Still the incoming was able to mask the out going.

It must be remembered that Bro. Hyles was constantly making speaking appearances across the country Mon. and Tues. nights, many times he gave a presentation or two on Wed morning before jumping on a jet to make it back just in time to speak in Hammond Wed night. Thurs. Morn. he would fly out again speaking Thurs. night Friday and Friday night then coming back for a meeting at Miller Hall Sat morning. Some times on Sat night he would go by van to a close location and make an additional presentation. The man was a speaking machine. He spoke at other churches way more than he ever spoke at the FBCH ministries.

Because of all of his appearances he was able to generate an enormous advertising and recruiting effect for HAC and the FBCH ministries thus stocking up the membership rolls to replace those going out the back door.

He was able to keep the furious pace until the 90s when his aortic valve started giving out, causing him to have pain and shortness of breath and at times total black-outs.

He had to cut back on the speaking engagements, he was very worried and we all knew it.

By this time it was into the 90s and you could easily see the decline in the college, HB  and in the FBCH attendance.

He would manipulate the number of chairs in the auditorium so as to always make it look like it was filled, you might call it the auditorium accordion affect.

He tried to regain some of his lost influence by announcing fantastic big days. 100,000 saved, Pentecost sundays, 25,000 baptism years, etc.

He also tried off-site Pastors' school meetings such as Gary Genesis center twice, Radison theater (it only holds about 3,000 in theater seats and is much larger volume wise than the old auditorium, so it looks like a huge crowd, in reality it's less than that that would fit in the old auditorium) and even that giant cattle barn, in Chicago, called the  International Amphitheatre. The arena was built for $1.5 million, by the Union Stock Yard Company, principally to host the International Livestock Exhibition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Amphitheatre

Many of us were sick for a week after breathing in all that livestock cow-pie dust.


He tried everything he could dream up to regain relevance. He even resurrected KJVO and the magic blood theory we first heard in the 1960s when he had  Ian Paisley the Northern Irish Presbyterian as a guest speaker on one Sunday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Paisley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Presbyterian_Church_of_Ulster

He made one Pastors' School as a catch-all I am a fundamentalists fundamentalist. It was called The Body the Book and the Blood. He went nut proclaiming wild heresies such and Magic Blood and KJVO.

Jack Schaap officiated over what was nearly a Catholic mass with a Hyles-ology flavor. Complete with the sprinkling of the blood on the heavenly mercy seat, even though Christ finished it once for all on the cross.

I believe this was the last straw for the LORD, it was just a few years and God took him.

He went so far as to proclaim in one of his rants that he had the only true church.

Well that is when the decline accelerated and picked up speed. You could see it in the auditorium, you can count it in the year books of HB and the college, you still can. So many good people just melted away out the back door.

FBCH started to grow after he died. It was just a couple of years and we were packing out the auditorium again.

By the statement that is bold, it seems you are saying if he wouldn't of went crazy on a few things that the place would of kept growing?

No. No.

That was his last gasp at trying to regain his previous very large following.

By the 90s the scandals had taken their toll. So many people that were inner circle (59ers) had left in sadness.
I have talked to many of them in the last 3 years. We reminisced and discussed how easy it is to Monday Morning Quarterback. They were so close that they could not ignore it. Myself, I always kept my distance from Bro. Hyles.
No meetings or counseling sessions. I would have probably left too if I had been as close as those who left.
These people were not his enemies they were his closest friends.

I believe I understand what Ed Minas must have gone through with Bro Hyles and his my way or the highway type of leadership. Ed Minas was giving checks for 50,000.00  weekly in the years before he left for the chuch on South Hohman Ave.
The new auditorium is on the site of his department store.

http://www.preserveindiana.com/pixpages/nw_ind/hamststr.html

How ironic.

What must he think now as he looks down from heaven.

Do you suppose he and Bro. Hyles are friends in heaven?


Bro. Hyles was like Elli, only Bro. Hyles died long before he reached the 98 years of Elli.

"As soon as he mentioned the ark of God, Eli fell over backward from his seat by the side of the gate, and his neck was broken and he died, for the man was old and heavy". I Sam 4:18

He knew he was done, he had hinted at it many times.

I think he knew it was his time to leave.

The story of David and Nathan and Elli and Hophni and Phinehas were well known to him and must have weighed heavily on his mind.

He knew what God did to David and his family as well as to Elli and his family.

 

[Fresh Air]

Almost every pastor goes through a natural progression in his ministry in which his church grows the most between age 35-55 and then declines again, very similar to a bell curve. Wise pastors preserve as much of their peak growth as they age. Unwise men fritter it away. In severe cases, men do tremendous damage and people leave in droves. While I agree with some of what Wilkinson just wrote and disagree with some on the whole he is somewhat accurate.

I think what did Bro. Hyles in was natural as he aged, compounded by disgust with Dave, and his handling of Dave. In addition, I really honestly think pride got to him in the end, and that causes God to resist a man's ministry. But, humanly speaking, he still filled a gigantic auditorium for decades, and that is an incredible feat, pastorally speaking. It was all the more incredible in the face of all of his self-imposed challenges.

I'd love to spend some more time on this but I just don't have it tonight. It would make for an educated and good thread all on its own, I think.

 

[Bruh]

The powers that be at that time knew about it, but we're helpless to stop it.

Appearance over substance. Then just deny, deny, deny.

Tell the parents you are doing something, then just pretend the problem is solved.

To which years are you referring?

I think mid nineties would be about right, about the time he went nuts over the magic blood theory and KJV onlyism, he was trying desperately to get the old mojo back, everything was falling apart, attendances were steadily declining, HB, the college and the church.

He didn't miss a single service at the old church downtown when I was there.....saying, "Even the president couldn't fill this auditorium every service."

Guess he got the big head too.......

For those of you who were there, do you think the decline in the ministries was caused by a failure to adapt or what. They used the same formula that had worked for over 30 yrs?
What happened?

Ok I'll take a stab at that.

When did the decline start?

In the mid 70s people were coming to HAC and FBCH in droves. They were coming in so fast we had to expand the auditorium to double the size. While this was being done we were meeting at the Hammond Civic Center, we were just about filling that building at times. When we move back to Sibley in 76 there was a problem finding seats after sunday school. This started several years of adding seating over the halls, extra chairs at row ends, the mezzanine, and finally the east and west overhang, at that point the building could hold just over 4,000 adults tightly packed in the pews.

Well we sure had lots of people, and it gave rise to Bro. Hyles many times making some fantastic statement about what he believed, he'd say, "if you don't like that there are", he would give a number of doors, it was not always the same, "take one of them and don't let it hit you on the back side on the way out". "Don't tell me you're leaving just sneak on out like a snake." He was adamant about it.

We had them coming in the front door so fast you wouldn't notice them going out the back door, as they got out of there, many of them were leaving when they could not handle the abrasive preaching.

Things were going great until Dave had his little problem. It was down hill from there, for many deacons and longtime church members, especially those whose children were involved with him.

This was the start of slow decline as long time inner circle members left and went elsewhere.

Next we had the VN-JN situation. We had many leave around this time. V. Glover, G. Godrey, A. Gomez, B. Weddle  to name just a few, who were what Bro. Hyles always called inner circle people. These people that I have listed were his buddies and very close friends. These kind of people leaving your church will leave a hole that is not easily filled. These are among the finest people we had and I could go on and on listing them. They got too close to Bro. Hyles and saw the real Jack Hyles and when they saw that they were repulsed and sickened. Still the incoming was able to mask the out going.

It must be remembered that Bro. Hyles was constantly making speaking appearances across the country Mon. and Tues. nights, many times he gave a presentation or two on Wed morning before jumping on a jet to make it back just in time to speak in Hammond Wed night. Thurs. Morn. he would fly out again speaking Thurs. night Friday and Friday night then coming back for a meeting at Miller Hall Sat morning. Some times on Sat night he would go by van to a close location and make an additional presentation. The man was a speaking machine. He spoke at other churches way more than he ever spoke at the FBCH ministries.

Because of all of his appearances he was able to generate an enormous advertising and recruiting effect for HAC and the FBCH ministries thus stocking up the membership rolls to replace those going out the back door.

He was able to keep the furious pace until the 90s when his aortic valve started giving out, causing him to have pain and shortness of breath and at times total black-outs.

He had to cut back on the speaking engagements, he was very worried and we all knew it.

By this time it was into the 90s and you could easily see the decline in the college, HB  and in the FBCH attendance.

He would manipulate the number of chairs in the auditorium so as to always make it look like it was filled, you might call it the auditorium accordion affect.

He tried to regain some of his lost influence by announcing fantastic big days. 100,000 saved, Pentecost sundays, 25,000 baptism years, etc.

He also tried off-site Pastors' school meetings such as Gary Genesis center twice, Radison theater (it only holds about 3,000 in theater seats and is much larger volume wise than the old auditorium, so it looks like a huge crowd, in reality it's less than that that would fit in the old auditorium) and even that giant cattle barn, in Chicago, called the  International Amphitheatre. The arena was built for $1.5 million, by the Union Stock Yard Company, principally to host the International Livestock Exhibition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Amphitheatre

Many of us were sick for a week after breathing in all that livestock cow-pie dust.


He tried everything he could dream up to regain relevance. He even resurrected KJVO and the magic blood theory we first heard in the 1960s when he had  Ian Paisley the Northern Irish Presbyterian as a guest speaker on one Sunday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Paisley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Presbyterian_Church_of_Ulster

He made one Pastors' School as a catch-all I am a fundamentalists fundamentalist. It was called The Body the Book and the Blood. He went nut proclaiming wild heresies such and Magic Blood and KJVO.

Jack Schaap officiated over what was nearly a Catholic mass with a Hyles-ology flavor. Complete with the sprinkling of the blood on the heavenly mercy seat, even though Christ finished it once for all on the cross.

I believe this was the last straw for the LORD, it was just a few years and God took him.

He went so far as to proclaim in one of his rants that he had the only true church.

Well that is when the decline accelerated and picked up speed. You could see it in the auditorium, you can count it in the year books of HB and the college, you still can. So many good people just melted away out the back door.

FBCH started to grow after he died. It was just a couple of years and we were packing out the auditorium again.

By the statement that is bold, it seems you are saying if he wouldn't of went crazy on a few things that the place would of kept growing?

No. No.

That was his last gasp at trying to regain his previous very large following.

By the 90s the scandals had taken their toll. So many people that were inner circle (59ers) had left in sadness.
I have talked to many of them in the last 3 years. We reminisced and discussed how easy it is to Monday Morning Quarterback. They were so close that they could not ignore it. Myself, I always kept my distance from Bro. Hyles.
No meetings or counseling sessions. I would have probably left too if I had been as close as those who left.
These people were not his enemies they were his closest friends.

I believe I understand what Ed Minas must have gone through with Bro Hyles and his my way or the highway type of leadership. Ed Minas was giving checks for 50,000.00  weekly in the years before he left for the chuch on South Hohman Ave.
The new auditorium is on the site of his department store.

http://www.preserveindiana.com/pixpages/nw_ind/hamststr.html

How ironic.

What must he think now as he looks down from heaven.

Do you suppose he and Bro. Hyles are friends in heaven?


Bro. Hyles was like Elli, only Bro. Hyles died long before he reached the 98 years of Elli.

"As soon as he mentioned the ark of God, Eli fell over backward from his seat by the side of the gate, and his neck was broken and he died, for the man was old and heavy". I Sam 4:18

He knew he was done, he had hinted at it many times.

I think he knew it was his time to leave.

The story of David and Nathan and Elli and Hophni and Phinehas were well known to him and must have weighed heavily on his mind.

He knew what God did to David and his family as well as to Elli and his family.

So if he would of not changed, the strong following would of continued? 

 

[bgwilkinson]

The powers that be at that time knew about it, but we're helpless to stop it.

Appearance over substance. Then just deny, deny, deny.

Tell the parents you are doing something, then just pretend the problem is solved.

To which years are you referring?

I think mid nineties would be about right, about the time he went nuts over the magic blood theory and KJV onlyism, he was trying desperately to get the old mojo back, everything was falling apart, attendances were steadily declining, HB, the college and the church.

He didn't miss a single service at the old church downtown when I was there.....saying, "Even the president couldn't fill this auditorium every service."

Guess he got the big head too.......

For those of you who were there, do you think the decline in the ministries was caused by a failure to adapt or what. They used the same formula that had worked for over 30 yrs?
What happened?

Ok I'll take a stab at that.

When did the decline start?

In the mid 70s people were coming to HAC and FBCH in droves. They were coming in so fast we had to expand the auditorium to double the size. While this was being done we were meeting at the Hammond Civic Center, we were just about filling that building at times. When we move back to Sibley in 76 there was a problem finding seats after sunday school. This started several years of adding seating over the halls, extra chairs at row ends, the mezzanine, and finally the east and west overhang, at that point the building could hold just over 4,000 adults tightly packed in the pews.

Well we sure had lots of people, and it gave rise to Bro. Hyles many times making some fantastic statement about what he believed, he'd say, "if you don't like that there are", he would give a number of doors, it was not always the same, "take one of them and don't let it hit you on the back side on the way out". "Don't tell me you're leaving just sneak on out like a snake." He was adamant about it.

We had them coming in the front door so fast you wouldn't notice them going out the back door, as they got out of there, many of them were leaving when they could not handle the abrasive preaching.

Things were going great until Dave had his little problem. It was down hill from there, for many deacons and longtime church members, especially those whose children were involved with him.

This was the start of slow decline as long time inner circle members left and went elsewhere.

Next we had the VN-JN situation. We had many leave around this time. V. Glover, G. Godrey, A. Gomez, B. Weddle  to name just a few, who were what Bro. Hyles always called inner circle people. These people that I have listed were his buddies and very close friends. These kind of people leaving your church will leave a hole that is not easily filled. These are among the finest people we had and I could go on and on listing them. They got too close to Bro. Hyles and saw the real Jack Hyles and when they saw that they were repulsed and sickened. Still the incoming was able to mask the out going.

It must be remembered that Bro. Hyles was constantly making speaking appearances across the country Mon. and Tues. nights, many times he gave a presentation or two on Wed morning before jumping on a jet to make it back just in time to speak in Hammond Wed night. Thurs. Morn. he would fly out again speaking Thurs. night Friday and Friday night then coming back for a meeting at Miller Hall Sat morning. Some times on Sat night he would go by van to a close location and make an additional presentation. The man was a speaking machine. He spoke at other churches way more than he ever spoke at the FBCH ministries.

Because of all of his appearances he was able to generate an enormous advertising and recruiting effect for HAC and the FBCH ministries thus stocking up the membership rolls to replace those going out the back door.

He was able to keep the furious pace until the 90s when his aortic valve started giving out, causing him to have pain and shortness of breath and at times total black-outs.

He had to cut back on the speaking engagements, he was very worried and we all knew it.

By this time it was into the 90s and you could easily see the decline in the college, HB  and in the FBCH attendance.

He would manipulate the number of chairs in the auditorium so as to always make it look like it was filled, you might call it the auditorium accordion affect.

He tried to regain some of his lost influence by announcing fantastic big days. 100,000 saved, Pentecost sundays, 25,000 baptism years, etc.

He also tried off-site Pastors' school meetings such as Gary Genesis center twice, Radison theater (it only holds about 3,000 in theater seats and is much larger volume wise than the old auditorium, so it looks like a huge crowd, in reality it's less than that that would fit in the old auditorium) and even that giant cattle barn, in Chicago, called the  International Amphitheatre. The arena was built for $1.5 million, by the Union Stock Yard Company, principally to host the International Livestock Exhibition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Amphitheatre

Many of us were sick for a week after breathing in all that livestock cow-pie dust.


He tried everything he could dream up to regain relevance. He even resurrected KJVO and the magic blood theory we first heard in the 1960s when he had  Ian Paisley the Northern Irish Presbyterian as a guest speaker on one Sunday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Paisley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Presbyterian_Church_of_Ulster

He made one Pastors' School as a catch-all I am a fundamentalists fundamentalist. It was called The Body the Book and the Blood. He went nut proclaiming wild heresies such and Magic Blood and KJVO.

Jack Schaap officiated over what was nearly a Catholic mass with a Hyles-ology flavor. Complete with the sprinkling of the blood on the heavenly mercy seat, even though Christ finished it once for all on the cross.

I believe this was the last straw for the LORD, it was just a few years and God took him.

He went so far as to proclaim in one of his rants that he had the only true church.

Well that is when the decline accelerated and picked up speed. You could see it in the auditorium, you can count it in the year books of HB and the college, you still can. So many good people just melted away out the back door.

FBCH started to grow after he died. It was just a couple of years and we were packing out the auditorium again.

By the statement that is bold, it seems you are saying if he wouldn't of went crazy on a few things that the place would of kept growing?

No. No.

That was his last gasp at trying to regain his previous very large following.

By the 90s the scandals had taken their toll. So many people that were inner circle (59ers) had left in sadness.
I have talked to many of them in the last 3 years. We reminisced and discussed how easy it is to Monday Morning Quarterback. They were so close that they could not ignore it. Myself, I always kept my distance from Bro. Hyles.
No meetings or counseling sessions. I would have probably left too if I had been as close as those who left.
These people were not his enemies they were his closest friends.

I believe I understand what Ed Minas must have gone through with Bro Hyles and his my way or the highway type of leadership. Ed Minas was giving checks for 50,000.00  weekly in the years before he left for the chuch on South Hohman Ave.
The new auditorium is on the site of his department store.

http://www.preserveindiana.com/pixpages/nw_ind/hamststr.html

How ironic.

What must he think now as he looks down from heaven.

Do you suppose he and Bro. Hyles are friends in heaven?


Bro. Hyles was like Elli, only Bro. Hyles died long before he reached the 98 years of Elli.

"As soon as he mentioned the ark of God, Eli fell over backward from his seat by the side of the gate, and his neck was broken and he died, for the man was old and heavy". I Sam 4:18

He knew he was done, he had hinted at it many times.

I think he knew it was his time to leave.

The story of David and Nathan and Elli and Hophni and Phinehas were well known to him and must have weighed heavily on his mind.

He knew what God did to David and his family as well as to Elli and his family.

So if he would of not changed, the strong following would of continued?

Please realize this is my own opinion based on attending FBCH since the 60s.

Others may disagree, that's fine. I can only speak for me and my family.

To answer your question.

By the mid 90s the die had been cast. The large following of friends had begin to diminish.

It was this large following that had him speak at their venues.

They sent the large number of students to stock the college and join the church as replacements for the ones leaving.

There was not one thing he could have done to stop it. He would have had to put the genie back in the bottle.

He would have had to undo all the years of bad publicity, most of it true, maybe the worst still a secret.

Well even he could not undo what he had done. Dave could not undo all he did.

Maybe you know we have a long list of ship-wrecks that have come out of our church and schools.

I won't go into them, you can look them up elsewhere. They just added to the weight.

I believe what he did at those Pastors' Schools in the 90s increased not decreased the flow away from FBCH.

As I look back on those years, another thing about the Pastors' School at the International Amphitheater strikes me as portending a downward slide in his ministry, that is the Amphitheater was in a tailspin of its own and just about to meet its demise.

"Sold in 1983 for a mere $250,000, the sprawling Amphitheater became difficult to maintain, and proved unable to attract enough large events to pay for its own upkeep. It was eventually sold to Cardenas & Fernandez and then the City of Chicago, which had no more success at attracting events than its previous owner. In August 1999, demolition of the International Amphitheater began."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Amphitheatre

I don't think he could have picked a worse venue than the Amphitheater in its twilight years.

Please realize this is what I saw on the inside looking out, not from the outside looking in.

Bro. Hyles had us indoctrinated with a siege mentality. He had us convince we were the largest church in the US and that if we failed all would be lost, our country would be destroyed.

I learned how wrong he was in the early 2000s as I traveled a lot to the really big churches in the US.

We were a small fish in a big pond. Bro. Hyles made us look big by making the pond very small, by defining an ever smaller true separated true church until we were biggest in a very small puddle.

Thus his, "I have a true church and you don't".

Only he could save America.

Hindsight truly is 20 20.

My opinion, thanks for reading.

 

[BALAAM]

Now to me here is the sad part to a lot of this. It has been well bantered on the fbch and hac facebook pages the pics of youth conference and of all the kids 'making decisions' and responding the the 'call of God on their lives'. Now I question whether or not the main concern is the "call" or the concern for young people or is it mostly efforts to 'restock the college'?

 

[TimbauxRioux]

I am not a FBCH former member, nor did I attend HAC. I am formerly SBC. As an evangelist, I traveled abroad and stumbled upon a church that was Hyles-type. Understand, by this time, I was already attending an independent Baptist church who had no affiliations with anyone. It was started by two men who did not attend college anywhere. Good church.

Anyway, this church asked me to work with them. I agreed. We heard "Dr Hyles" name so many times that I even complained about it.. maybe I shouldn't have, i was just not used to lifting up a man to that extent. If Hyles did it, it was OK, if he didn't do it, you CANT do it.

When I attended a camp up north, it was run by FBCH. I found out that the evangelist from the church only preached in churches loyal to Hyles. It was like there were enough followers and "sattelite" churches to where the Hyles folks could be exclusive. They criticized just about everybody else.

Y'all talking about the decline. Let me say this.... among the Deaf.. way back in 1987, FBCH had the largest Deaf group in the world. Well over 300. By 1993, that number had fallen to about 200... then it kept sliding, and now, I am told it is quite small.

I couldn't give a fair guess at why all this decline took place, but I do know that scandals had taken an effect on them. People in the church down this way were murmuring about Dave, and about other scandals.. The Sumner stuff came out..

Some of the things Hyles said were a little out there. I think, as others have said, in his later years, as Tom said, things fizzled fast, with nothing in reserve. If a man has it in his head he is going to die preaching at that church, he better pace himself. 

Schapps comments toward the end were the reason some folks I knew did not send their kids back after the summer break for HAC. I think the pastor of the church I was attending even called Schapp and told him the things he said about baptism and intimacy were ridiculous.

I admit I dont read up much on that group, but I pray that the Lord straightens everything out. Some say burn the place down.. i dont know... I would just pray God's will be done.
 

I hate hearing bad news about churches falling and declining, and the scandals.

 

[Techmedic]

I remember the first few sermons of JS when South Point first opened and they were good.... But after a couple months some of his sexual ones came out... Now mind you I have thick skin and even I was like woah... I had never heard so much talk about sex in a church before, I remember thinking to myself "This guy is hiding something... wouldn't surprise me if he was messing around". I remember the one Easter service I had invited my parents... and I was nervous about what he was going to say (My mother would have left if he got as graphic as he had gotten in the past).
I almost left South Point because of how much sex talk he did from the pulpit... If I wanted to hear that kind of talk I could just go to a bar, or a frat house, but what I found the most shocking was NOBODY seemed to mind, and were "Amening" it. Then the "Sickness" happened, and he wasn't there for about 2 months before the story came out. I know of several ppl that came and he was on one of his sex sermons and you never saw them again.... If he hadn't been arrested I more than likely would have quit going over to SP I was there for his last "sermon" (The infamous what your parents don't know I think it was called) reflecting on it, it was like his full confession almost like he was rubbing it in someones face.. More than likely that is what he was doing (I speculate that sermon pushed that person over the line and they turned him in). I had never felt uncomfortable in a church before... but there were several times with JS I was.

I should also admit, I did like him... Even though I felt he was fake and hiding something... He just had something about him that drew you in. Whats funny/sad... I have a bible I don't read anymore because he signed it... It's really nice but I just can't stand to read from it... I also don't want to just throw it away... I have asked what is the proper way to dispose of a bible... but I can't find an answer to it, I was told just throw it away IDK why I have an issue doing that, it just seems wrong to put a bible in the trash... I mean you wouldn't just throw a flag in the garbage the proper way is to burn it... There HAS to be some way to dispose of it in a proper way... Anyways I got off subject... as always this is just my 2 cents.

 

[patriotic]

I remember the first few sermons of JS when South Point first opened and they were good.... But after a couple months some of his sexual ones came out... Now mind you I have thick skin and even I was like woah... I had never heard so much talk about sex in a church before, I remember thinking to myself "This guy is hiding something... wouldn't surprise me if he was messing around". I remember the one Easter service I had invited my parents... and I was nervous about what he was going to say (My mother would have left if he got as graphic as he had gotten in the past).
I almost left South Point because of how much sex talk he did from the pulpit... If I wanted to hear that kind of talk I could just go to a bar, or a frat house, but what I found the most shocking was NOBODY seemed to mind, and were "Amening" it. Then the "Sickness" happened, and he wasn't there for about 2 months before the story came out. I know of several ppl that came and he was on one of his sex sermons and you never saw them again.... If he hadn't been arrested I more than likely would have quit going over to SP I was there for his last "sermon" (The infamous what your parents don't know I think it was called) reflecting on it, it was like his full confession almost like he was rubbing it in someones face.. More than likely that is what he was doing (I speculate that sermon pushed that person over the line and they turned him in). I had never felt uncomfortable in a church before... but there were several times with JS I was.

I should also admit, I did like him... Even though I felt he was fake and hiding something... He just had something about him that drew you in. Whats funny/sad... I have a bible I don't read anymore because he signed it... It's really nice but I just can't stand to read from it... I also don't want to just throw it away... I have asked what is the proper way to dispose of a bible... but I can't find an answer to it, I was told just throw it away IDK why I have an issue doing that, it just seems wrong to put a bible in the trash... I mean you wouldn't just throw a flag in the garbage the proper way is to burn it... There HAS to be some way to dispose of it in a proper way... Anyways I got off subject... as always this is just my 2 cents.

Regarding that Bible -- You could always join that Facebook group that's in support of our Pastor JS, and advertise it for sale there. 

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

I should also admit, I did like him... Even though I felt he was fake and hiding something... He just had something about him that drew you in. Whats funny/sad... I have a bible I don't read anymore because he signed it... It's really nice but I just can't stand to read from it... I also don't want to just throw it away... I have asked what is the proper way to dispose of a bible... but I can't find an answer to it, I was told just throw it away IDK why I have an issue doing that, it just seems wrong to put a bible in the trash... I mean you wouldn't just throw a flag in the garbage the proper way is to burn it... There HAS to be some way to dispose of it in a proper way... Anyways I got off subject... as always this is just my 2 cents.

He was that way! About the Bible... Cut out the offending page with the signature. If it still grosses you out, and I understand why it could, donate it to Goodwill, or maybe the FBCH Thrift Store.

 

[fishinnut]

After reading Wilkerson's writing, it is quite evident that the glory days of the "old church downtown" are history anyway. It's good that FBCH walked away from that building I used in the 70's when I was there....

That movement is dead in the water to me, the man who said he was the leader of it is gone like the glory of the old days. I decided long ago that following men & movements was not for me. Yet because we attend church where my kids are active, I find myself a part of one of the country's fastest growing churches......but I for one, raise my eyebrows sometimes remembering the lessons learned during my time in the IFB.

 

[Tennessean]

Giving Your All ;D

I have tried to make it a life policy to never hold a grudge regarding anything anyone did while they were in college. Why? Because we all did stupid things while in college. We said things and we did things that we hope never see the light of day, and most didn’t achieve maturity until at least their mid twenties. Hey, there probably was a reason in the Bible that Isaac & Rebecca didn’t let Jacob date until he was 70.

But if you want to know where most of the young Baptist immature morons went, it was Hyles Anderson College. We earned the word Hacker honestly. So if you hear of something really stupid that one of us did while in college, we deserve to be forgiven. That being said, the stories are still funny, even if their on us.

So let me share this one with you. The subject of this story still serves the Lord and is raising his family in good independent fundamental Baptist Church. So I have to use another name for him. We’ll call him Horace.

As a bus worker, I didn’t like riding the night bus. What was the night bus? Glad you asked. The normal day for a HAC student who was a bus worker at FBC Hammond began anywhere from 3 a.m. to 6 a.m. on Sunday morning and lasted all day. You would think it ended when the Sunday evening service ended at about 9 p.m. But no, there was more. In most bus divisions the men were expected to reboard the buses and take the teenagers and adults back to Chicago. Those workers didn’t get back to the college till about 1 a.m. Monday morning. Every division leader wanted all his people on those busses late Sunday night so a good bit of his preaching to his division centered on riding the night bus. If you didn’t ride then your division leader would try to find you on Monday and demand a reason for your absence. Most division leaders were very good at putting a guilt trip on you and making you feel very, very bad.

As I said, I didn’t like riding the night bus so I generally I didn’t. My division leader was a master of pressure, but for 2 years when it came to the night bus, I didn’t budge. My 3rd year in his division, he started not riding the night bus either, and passed the responsibility of running the night bus to a young man named Marty Braemer. Now Marty was a ball of energy and a lot of fun to be around. And rather than browbeat, he asked me as a friend to ride and I did. And I can say, it was an all right experience. Marty does know how to run a service. Teenagers, adults, Marty got them all involved in a pretty good service.

The schedule was kind of like this. We would leave church in Hammond packed in a bus after the evening service. There was a preaching service on the way to Chicago. Bus captains and bus workers were dispatched to take the riders home. Then, finally all preacher boys in a division would gather back on one bus and would preach to each other. It was always interesting and you never knew what would happen. For example the guy that picked buggers off a frozen window preached an 8 week series on knowing the will of God. There was a sermon by one bus captain about how the devil was his most faithful bus worker, and Rick Burns preached a sermon about sweeping the bus where he grabbed a broom and just rammed the end of it into the ceiling repeatedly while he screamed. So get the idea, preaching, anything goes.

Now this is where the story begins.

One late Sunday night all was done. All riders were dropped off and I settled back in my seat half-way back hoping for a quick ride back to the college. I also had half a sack lunch I had saved all day and was hoping to eat it quietly. The preaching began. I think 5 of the bus captains preached, then the other guys could preach.  Horace jumped up. Horace began his sermon by imploring us all to give. “Our bus kids need everything, we should give them our all,” he said. Ok good thought. I was starting to feel a bit under conviction from hoarding my lunch and not sharing it.

Horace decided to run with the thought of “giving it my all.” As he preached about total selfless giving he whipped off his suit jacket. He screamed something and whirled it in the air like a lasso. Then he threw it at the crowd. He must have thought something was working because a little later he stopped screaming,  took off his tie and shouted, “I’m giving my all.” As the sermon got a little hotter Horace unbuttoned his white dress shirt and tossed it to the crowd. (yes, it was a standard hacker shirt with yellow stains in the armpits)

Horace should have stopped there. But he didn’t. As he was preaching he took off his pants. He waved them, and tossed them to the crowd. Then he ended the sermon by removing his undershirt. I had never seen a guy preach in his underwear before and hope I never do again. That kind of ended the service. Marty was speechless. We all were. That ended my night bus experience. In later years when asked to ride a night bus I just said, “No, no, no.”

 

[RAIDER]

Giving Your All ;D

I have tried to make it a life policy to never hold a grudge regarding anything anyone did while they were in college. Why? Because we all did stupid things while in college. We said things and we did things that we hope never see the light of day, and most didn’t achieve maturity until at least their mid twenties. Hey, there probably was a reason in the Bible that Isaac & Rebecca didn’t let Jacob date until he was 70.

But if you want to know where most of the young Baptist immature morons went, it was Hyles Anderson College. We earned the word Hacker honestly. So if you hear of something really stupid that one of us did while in college, we deserve to be forgiven. That being said, the stories are still funny, even if their on us.

So let me share this one with you. The subject of this story still serves the Lord and is raising his family in good independent fundamental Baptist Church. So I have to use another name for him. We’ll call him Horace.

As a bus worker, I didn’t like riding the night bus. What was the night bus? Glad you asked. The normal day for a HAC student who was a bus worker at FBC Hammond began anywhere from 3 a.m. to 6 a.m. on Sunday morning and lasted all day. You would think it ended when the Sunday evening service ended at about 9 p.m. But no, there was more. In most bus divisions the men were expected to reboard the buses and take the teenagers and adults back to Chicago. Those workers didn’t get back to the college till about 1 a.m. Monday morning. Every division leader wanted all his people on those busses late Sunday night so a good bit of his preaching to his division centered on riding the night bus. If you didn’t ride then your division leader would try to find you on Monday and demand a reason for your absence. Most division leaders were very good at putting a guilt trip on you and making you feel very, very bad.

As I said, I didn’t like riding the night bus so I generally I didn’t. My division leader was a master of pressure, but for 2 years when it came to the night bus, I didn’t budge. My 3rd year in his division, he started not riding the night bus either, and passed the responsibility of running the night bus to a young man named Marty Braemer. Now Marty was a ball of energy and a lot of fun to be around. And rather than browbeat, he asked me as a friend to ride and I did. And I can say, it was an all right experience. Marty does know how to run a service. Teenagers, adults, Marty got them all involved in a pretty good service.

The schedule was kind of like this. We would leave church in Hammond packed in a bus after the evening service. There was a preaching service on the way to Chicago. Bus captains and bus workers were dispatched to take the riders home. Then, finally all preacher boys in a division would gather back on one bus and would preach to each other. It was always interesting and you never knew what would happen. For example the guy that picked buggers off a frozen window preached an 8 week series on knowing the will of God. There was a sermon by one bus captain about how the devil was his most faithful bus worker, and Rick Burns preached a sermon about sweeping the bus where he grabbed a broom and just rammed the end of it into the ceiling repeatedly while he screamed. So get the idea, preaching, anything goes.

Now this is where the story begins.

One late Sunday night all was done. All riders were dropped off and I settled back in my seat half-way back hoping for a quick ride back to the college. I also had half a sack lunch I had saved all day and was hoping to eat it quietly. The preaching began. I think 5 of the bus captains preached, then the other guys could preach.  Horace jumped up. Horace began his sermon by imploring us all to give. “Our bus kids need everything, we should give them our all,” he said. Ok good thought. I was starting to feel a bit under conviction from hoarding my lunch and not sharing it.

Horace decided to run with the thought of “giving it my all.” As he preached about total selfless giving he whipped off his suit jacket. He screamed something and whirled it in the air like a lasso. Then he threw it at the crowd. He must have thought something was working because a little later he stopped screaming,  took off his tie and shouted, “I’m giving my all.” As the sermon got a little hotter Horace unbuttoned his white dress shirt and tossed it to the crowd. (yes, it was a standard hacker shirt with yellow stains in the armpits)

Horace should have stopped there. But he didn’t. As he was preaching he took off his pants. He waved them, and tossed them to the crowd. Then he ended the sermon by removing his undershirt. I had never seen a guy preach in his underwear before and hope I never do again. That kind of ended the service. Marty was speechless. We all were. That ended my night bus experience. In later years when asked to ride a night bus I just said, “No, no, no.”

Classic!! 

 

[Fresh Air]

Tennessean, you're killing me here...

 

[Tennessean]

Tennessean, you're killing me here...

The thing about it is it's all true.

 

[kaba]

John Mark once told a story about a guy preaching on the night bus, that preached the whole time in front of the guys with the tail of his shirt sticking out the zipper of his pants!

 

[RAIDER]

John Mark once told a story about a guy preaching on the night bus, that preached the whole time in front of the guys with the tail of his shirt sticking out the zipper of his pants!

And the problem is.........?