So why the drastic change in beliefs?

[RAIDER]

I have family, many friends whom I ministered to, and many acquaintances in AOG.  I have heard that among AOG/COG and other charismatic offshoots, Baptists are the 'bad guy' in the 'what not to be' illustrations, from many sources.  I could tell personal stories all day, but they aren't conclusive evidence, every man must give account of himself to God.  I cannot but speak the things which I have seen and heard.  If you believe 'everlasting' means 'everlasting', you might as well be Satan....or you were sent from God to finally bring 'good news'.


Anishinabe

Prophet, I also have friends who are AofG folk and my experiences are the same as yours.  Sometime listen to Donnie Swaggart preach (and, yes, he can shuck the corn!)  )  From time-to-time he will take a jab at Baptist for not believing in tongues, etc.

You are exactly right on this. Jimmie Swaggart, on the other hand, has mellowed quite a bit over the years. In his younger days he would chastise the Baptists for not walking after the same beliefs as him but I don't hear him use the same tone much any more. Donnie on the other hand...... I have never wasted much money on any of his stuff.

Jimmy can sure tickle the ivories!

 

[BALAAM]

I have family, many friends whom I ministered to, and many acquaintances in AOG.  I have heard that among AOG/COG and other charismatic offshoots, Baptists are the 'bad guy' in the 'what not to be' illustrations, from many sources.  I could tell personal stories all day, but they aren't conclusive evidence, every man must give account of himself to God.  I cannot but speak the things which I have seen and heard.  If you believe 'everlasting' means 'everlasting', you might as well be Satan....or you were sent from God to finally bring 'good news'.


Anishinabe

Prophet, I also have friends who are AofG folk and my experiences are the same as yours.  Sometime listen to Donnie Swaggart preach (and, yes, he can shuck the corn!)  )  From time-to-time he will take a jab at Baptist for not believing in tongues, etc.

You are exactly right on this. Jimmie Swaggart, on the other hand, has mellowed quite a bit over the years. In his younger days he would chastise the Baptists for not walking after the same beliefs as him but I don't hear him use the same tone much any more. Donnie on the other hand...... I have never wasted much money on any of his stuff.

Jimmy can sure tickle the ivories!

He said that he is not quite able to do what he used to be able to do on the piano. Which is still considerably more than the average player.

 

[RAIDER]

I have family, many friends whom I ministered to, and many acquaintances in AOG.  I have heard that among AOG/COG and other charismatic offshoots, Baptists are the 'bad guy' in the 'what not to be' illustrations, from many sources.  I could tell personal stories all day, but they aren't conclusive evidence, every man must give account of himself to God.  I cannot but speak the things which I have seen and heard.  If you believe 'everlasting' means 'everlasting', you might as well be Satan....or you were sent from God to finally bring 'good news'.


Anishinabe

Prophet, I also have friends who are AofG folk and my experiences are the same as yours.  Sometime listen to Donnie Swaggart preach (and, yes, he can shuck the corn!)  )  From time-to-time he will take a jab at Baptist for not believing in tongues, etc.

You are exactly right on this. Jimmie Swaggart, on the other hand, has mellowed quite a bit over the years. In his younger days he would chastise the Baptists for not walking after the same beliefs as him but I don't hear him use the same tone much any more. Donnie on the other hand...... I have never wasted much money on any of his stuff.

Jimmy can sure tickle the ivories!

I use to love listening to him with John Starnes.

He said that he is not quite able to do what he used to be able to do on the piano. Which is still considerably more than the average player.

 

[Evelyn]

I have family, many friends whom I ministered to, and many acquaintances in AOG.  I have heard that among AOG/COG and other charismatic offshoots, Baptists are the 'bad guy' in the 'what not to be' illustrations, from many sources.  I could tell personal stories all day, but they aren't conclusive evidence, every man must give account of himself to God.  I cannot but speak the things which I have seen and heard.  If you believe 'everlasting' means 'everlasting', you might as well be Satan....or you were sent from God to finally bring 'good news'.


Anishinabe

Prophet, I also have friends who are AofG folk and my experiences are the same as yours.  Sometime listen to Donnie Swaggart preach (and, yes, he can shuck the corn!)  )  From time-to-time he will take a jab at Baptist for not believing in tongues, etc.

You are exactly right on this. Jimmie Swaggart, on the other hand, has mellowed quite a bit over the years. In his younger days he would chastise the Baptists for not walking after the same beliefs as him but I don't hear him use the same tone much any more. Donnie on the other hand...... I have never wasted much money on any of his stuff.

Jimmy can sure tickle the ivories!

I use to love listening to him with John Starnes.

He said that he is not quite able to do what he used to be able to do on the piano. Which is still considerably more than the average player.

I work across the street from Family Worship Center, and our building is one of the old admin buildings from their heyday.  They still pack the place out on Sundays.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Maybe our beliefs haven't changed. Maybe we realized that ridiculous legalistic "standards" have nothing to do with beliefs.

Comments like these always make me shake my head.  Legalism is adding a work to salvation.  I don't believe I have ever heard anyone at FBCH/HAC say that you had to wear a dress or get a hair cut in order to receive salvation.  Secondly, you talk about standards having nothing to do with beliefs.  If what you believe doesn't make a difference in the way you live then do you really have a belief?  And BTW, you do have standards.  You may not have the same standards as they required at HAC, but you do have standards.  If you are trying to live a Christian life on any level, there are others that will look at you and consider your standards ridiculous.

When adding a work to sanctification folks also classify that as legalism.  I prefer to call it performance based Christianity.

I agree. 

For years I would grow angry when classified as a legalist.  Legalists are adding works to salvation which an IFB definitely does not do - in fact, many of them ignore even the understanding of salvation and get kids to say a prayer so they can get candy (which is another issue).  Over the past year, I have been re-evaluating and reading from many different sources.  I have discovered that many people also define a legalist as one who adds works to sanctification, which is wrong.  I prefer to use the term performance based Christianity because of the old definition with which I am familiar.

I have come to realize the HAC model of IFB to teach salvation by grace but christian living by works.  Just today, I read the intro to a marriage book by an IFB evangelist.  He stated that man was made to serve God.  Wrong.  Man was made to glorify God.  There is a difference. I didn't need to read anything else in this book.

Performance Based Christianity leaves people needing to do more in order to earn the fruits of the spirit.  However, Scripture teaches we are to abide in the True Vine that we might bear fruit.  PBC leaves people feeling inadequate and scoffed by those who have supposedly "arrived."  Relationship Based Christianity leaves people with the joy and peace of honoring God - our true purpose in life.

You are correct, but oversimplifying the truth. Man glorifies God BY serving him.

Deuteronomy 6:13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

Deuteronomy 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Psalms 100:2 Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing.

Psalms 102:22 When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.

Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

Colossians 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

It is evident that we are to serve the Lord. Now, the Lord judges each man according to what He requires of them, and we each have differing circumstances that determine what personal service may look like. For instance if you are  caring for a sick loved one your attendance to Church Visitation may be less than someone elses (just by way of examples, the list of hypotheticals is endless). But to say that you do not have to serve the Lord is often the excuse someone gives who has a poor relationship with the Lord but is unwilling to admit it. True, no man "sits in judgment" of anyone, but a preacher is not to be blamed who preaches that men ought to serve the Lord, and then applies it. Thats just Biblical preaching and pastoring.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Maybe our beliefs haven't changed. Maybe we realized that ridiculous legalistic "standards" have nothing to do with beliefs.

Comments like these always make me shake my head.  Legalism is adding a work to salvation.  I don't believe I have ever heard anyone at FBCH/HAC say that you had to wear a dress or get a hair cut in order to receive salvation.  Secondly, you talk about standards having nothing to do with beliefs.  If what you believe doesn't make a difference in the way you live then do you really have a belief?  And BTW, you do have standards.  You may not have the same standards as they required at HAC, but you do have standards.  If you are trying to live a Christian life on any level, there are others that will look at you and consider your standards ridiculous.

When adding a work to sanctification folks also classify that as legalism.  I prefer to call it performance based Christianity.

I agree. 

For years I would grow angry when classified as a legalist.  Legalists are adding works to salvation which an IFB definitely does not do - in fact, many of them ignore even the understanding of salvation and get kids to say a prayer so they can get candy (which is another issue).  Over the past year, I have been re-evaluating and reading from many different sources.  I have discovered that many people also define a legalist as one who adds works to sanctification, which is wrong.  I prefer to use the term performance based Christianity because of the old definition with which I am familiar.

I have come to realize the HAC model of IFB to teach salvation by grace but christian living by works.  Just today, I read the intro to a marriage book by an IFB evangelist.  He stated that man was made to serve God.  Wrong.  Man was made to glorify God.  There is a difference. I didn't need to read anything else in this book.

Performance Based Christianity leaves people needing to do more in order to earn the fruits of the spirit.  However, Scripture teaches we are to abide in the True Vine that we might bear fruit.  PBC leaves people feeling inadequate and scoffed by those who have supposedly "arrived."  Relationship Based Christianity leaves people with the joy and peace of honoring God - our true purpose in life.

You are correct, but oversimplifying the truth. Man glorifies God BY serving him.

Deuteronomy 6:13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

Deuteronomy 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Psalms 100:2 Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing.

Psalms 102:22 When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.

Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

Colossians 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

It is evident that we are to serve the Lord. Now, the Lord judges each man according to what He requires of them, and we each have differing circumstances that determine what personal service may look like. For instance if you are  caring for a sick loved one your attendance to Church Visitation may be less than someone elses (just by way of examples, the list of hypotheticals is endless). But to say that you do not have to serve the Lord is often the excuse someone gives who has a poor relationship with the Lord but is unwilling to admit it. True, no man "sits in judgment" of anyone, but a preacher is not to be blamed who preaches that men ought to serve the Lord, and then applies it. Thats just Biblical preaching and pastoring.

Maybe you are unfamiliar with the HAC model.  In this model, service replaces relationship.  Success in Christianity is solely defined by hours of service to the church or to the church's ministry plus the numbers you are able to put on the board.  The greatest commandment (Love God... and Him only shalt thou serve) has been replaced with the second (love thy neighbor).  Serving in the bus ministry or impressing leadership has replaced the relationship with God.  The goal has become to impress the leadership and other "lesser" Christians with one's performance.  THIS IS WRONG!

Bro. Hyles would often reference a biography entitled: "Praying Hyde."  It was one of the books that shaped Hyles' ministry.  Over the past year and a half, I finally read that book.  Praying Hyde would have been preached against by our modern IFB world.  He would not have been accepted in our conferences because he did not have great numbers about which to boast.  Yet, what an amazing story.  Read "Praying Hyde" and contrast that work with our modern HAC model of "If you aren't busy doing you are failing." 

 

[RAIDER]

Bro. Hyles would often reference a biography entitled: "Praying Hyde."  It was one of the books that shaped Hyles' ministry.  Over the past year and a half, I finally read that book.  Praying Hyde would have been preached against by our modern IFB world.  He would not have been accepted in our conferences because he did not have great numbers about which to boast.  Yet, what an amazing story.  Read "Praying Hyde" and contrast that work with our modern HAC model of "If you aren't busy doing you are failing."

I just realized that Praying Hyde was a stinkin' (I love that word) liberal! 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Bro. Hyles would often reference a biography entitled: "Praying Hyde."  It was one of the books that shaped Hyles' ministry.  Over the past year and a half, I finally read that book.  Praying Hyde would have been preached against by our modern IFB world.  He would not have been accepted in our conferences because he did not have great numbers about which to boast.  Yet, what an amazing story.  Read "Praying Hyde" and contrast that work with our modern HAC model of "If you aren't busy doing you are failing."

I just realized that Praying Hyde was a stinkin' (I love that word) liberal! 

Bro. Hyles repeatedly referenced three biographies that greatly influenced his life and ministry: Praying Hyde, Goforth of China and Robert Murray McShayne.  None of these men were IFB, though they did have many similar principles.

 

[PappaBear]

McCheyne

 

[Binaca Chugger]

McCheyne

Yep.  Sorry.

 

[Bravo]

It is evident that we are to serve the Lord. Now, the Lord judges each man according to what He requires of them, and we each have differing circumstances that determine what personal service may look like. For instance if you are  caring for a sick loved one your attendance to Church Visitation may be less than someone elses (just by way of examples, the list of hypotheticals is endless). But to say that you do not have to serve the Lord is often the excuse someone gives who has a poor relationship with the Lord but is unwilling to admit it. True, no man "sits in judgment" of anyone, but a preacher is not to be blamed who preaches that men ought to serve the Lord, and then applies it. Thats just Biblical preaching and pastoring.

The sad thing is that it seems that you are saying only church work is serving The Lord.  Caring for the sick loved one is not equated to serving God. It appears that you are saying if its something that benefits the church's ministry that is ministry.

But Jesus said in Matthew 25:40 KJV

"[40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

And again we are referred to,

James 1:27 KJV
"[27] Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

Neither of these would necessarily benefit or directly multiply a church's ministry  number but I would say it is still serving God. It appears God thinks so too.

 

[sword]

So why the drastic change in beliefs?

Sorry to interject this.    Just wonder if you all have ever seen this about BG.
Robert Schuller And Billy Graham Speaking Wide Acceptance

This clip was posted on another thread.

What would make Billy Graham (Evanglist & crusader for Christ) change so much over his lifetime.

What happened? 

 

[bgwilkinson]

So why the drastic change in beliefs?

Sorry to interject this.    Just wonder if you all have ever seen this about BG.
Robert Schuller And Billy Graham Speaking Wide Acceptance

This clip was posted on another thread.

What would make Billy Graham (Evanglist & crusader for Christ) change so much over his lifetime.

What happened?

Like so many Fundamentalists with Billy it was always about winning the most.

We need to be balanced and practice the whole council of God.

Just because you are a great preacher and win thousands doesn't mean you're a good servant.

Remember DH.

 

[IFB X-Files]

So why the drastic change in beliefs?

Sorry to interject this.    Just wonder if you all have ever seen this about BG.
Robert Schuller And Billy Graham Speaking Wide Acceptance

This clip was posted on another thread.

What would make Billy Graham (Evanglist & crusader for Christ) change so much over his lifetime.

What happened?

I've read all the bio's on Billy and just believe he fell into "fame".  Also, he was ordained a Southern Baptist but his wife remained Presbyterian. 

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

It is evident that we are to serve the Lord. Now, the Lord judges each man according to what He requires of them, and we each have differing circumstances that determine what personal service may look like. For instance if you are  caring for a sick loved one your attendance to Church Visitation may be less than someone elses (just by way of examples, the list of hypotheticals is endless). But to say that you do not have to serve the Lord is often the excuse someone gives who has a poor relationship with the Lord but is unwilling to admit it. True, no man "sits in judgment" of anyone, but a preacher is not to be blamed who preaches that men ought to serve the Lord, and then applies it. Thats just Biblical preaching and pastoring.

The sad thing is that it seems that you are saying only church work is serving The Lord.  Caring for the sick loved one is not equated to serving God. It appears that you are saying if its something that benefits the church's ministry that is ministry.

But Jesus said in Matthew 25:40 KJV

"[40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

And again we are referred to,

James 1:27 KJV
"[27] Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

Neither of these would necessarily benefit or directly multiply a church's ministry  number but I would say it is still serving God. It appears God thinks so too.

Now either you misread my post or I didn't explain myself well enough. I certainly believe that there are many ways to "serve the Lord" that may not directly multiply a churches ministry. To say that it does not benefit, well, I disagree. Using my example for instance, while the reasoning and objective of caring for parents may not be to benefit the church, or offering to help a shut in (non member) may not seemingly benefit the church, or just helping the neighbour move his couch may not seemingly benefit the church, I think all these things do benefit the church. They speak to the churches character and care for the community. They all improve the churches testimony in the community. Now, thats not the reason you do them, but it is the long term result.

I pastor a small church, and the post I made was to clarify that the vast majority of God's people do not have to be challenged to "do good unto others". They have to be challenged to serve in their church period. They would much rather make a jug of ice tea and talk to their neighbour than go out on visitation. Listen, from time to time you ought to make a jug of ice tea and talk to your neighbour, but that is not all you should do. Their needs to be a proper perspective here. Certainly there have been and are pastors who abuse the service of others, and use psychological means to pressure people into serving in an unbalanced manner. I believe service is supposed to be balanced. Work, home, church, community, friends, neighbours etc. All in balance. So yes, direct ministries of the church consuming all of a persons time while no family time, etc is out of balance. But so is never helping in the church in any capacity other than to sit in a pew, soak it in, and go home. As I said in the earlier post, everyones situation is different, and the Lord knows these things, so Biblical responsibilities (ie parents), age, health, all play a part in an individuals availability, but to say I am never available is just as wrong as neglecting other responsibilities.

Binaca Chugger, I am very familiar with the HAC model. Familiar enough to personally know graduates. Familiar enough to say:
Schaap on communion is heresy
I am against shallow presentations of the gospel
I am against man worship, be it Hyles, Schaap, Roberson, Neal, Vineyard, Chappell, Sexton, Ruckman, Voegtlin, Fugate, or any host of others

I am however a non Calvinist KJV Inedependent Baptist who believes in Biblical Pastoral Authourity, active witnessing and Biblical separation that includes music and dress standards.

Hope this clarifies what i meant a little.

 

[Evelyn]

I am however a non Calvinist KJV Inedependent Baptist who believes in Biblical Pastoral Authourity...

Would you expound on that?

 

[RAIDER]

So why the drastic change in beliefs?

Sorry to interject this.    Just wonder if you all have ever seen this about BG.
Robert Schuller And Billy Graham Speaking Wide Acceptance

This clip was posted on another thread.

What would make Billy Graham (Evanglist & crusader for Christ) change so much over his lifetime.

What happened?

It is amazing when you consider he use to be on the board of The Sword of the Lord.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

I am however a non Calvinist KJV Inedependent Baptist who believes in Biblical Pastoral Authourity...

Would you expound on that?

Umm, which part? (I am not trying to be vague, but each of those terms may require a lengthy explanation)

 

[PappaBear]

I am however a non Calvinist KJV Inedependent Baptist who believes in Biblical Pastoral Authourity...

Would you expound on that?

Do you think that it somehow alters the perspective of the rest of what he has said?

 

[RAIDER]

I am however a non Calvinist KJV Inedependent Baptist who believes in Biblical Pastoral Authourity...

Would you expound on that?

Do you think that it somehow alters the perspective of the rest of what he has said?