So why the drastic change in beliefs?

[ItinerantPreacher]

No specific reason.  It has already been confirmed because I walk with the Lord and the Holy Spirit does guide me as well. 

O.k I have you and your wife over to eat and I let you know the direction the Lord is leading me. 
Lets say I have been in church faithfully since I was in my earlier 20's and it has been at least 15 years.   
Would you have a problem with this? 

I clipped some of this off, replying was making the response crazy long.

Simple answer. No. No problem at all. I would help you move. Not to get rid of you, but to honor the 15 years you have served the Lord here.

And I would make sure the church understood to treat you properly when you leave, and welcome you with open arms if you come to visit.

 

[Bravo]

Thirdly, how will they join that church? (Now I know the answer to my question here is that very few pastors practice what I am about to mention) They need letters of recommendation. Those letters are not to prevent them from leaving, but to protect the church they are going too

Too bad church members can't send the same type letter so that the prospective church could avoid danger as well from a new pastor.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Thirdly, how will they join that church? (Now I know the answer to my question here is that very few pastors practice what I am about to mention) They need letters of recommendation. Those letters are not to prevent them from leaving, but to protect the church they are going too

Too bad church members can't send the same type letter so that the prospective church could avoid danger as well from a new pastor.

A prospective church would do well to vet their new prospective pastor thoroughly. Ask pressing questions. Require it of the pulpit committee, if the pulpit committee won't vet prospects, won't take a questionnaire from a member and have it answered by the prospect, get a new committee, or get out. The pulpit committee should be mature enough to discard trivial questions, but at the same time answer deeper questions.
- Position on the Bible
- Position on personal standards
- Position on tithing
- Position on Faith Promise
- Position on Workers Standards
- Position on  music
- Position on sending missionaries
- Position on missions boards
- Position on communion
- Position on presenting the gospel (repentance)
- Position on psychology
- Position on Bible Colleges
- Position on Pastoral Authourity ans its limitations
- Position on Church Discipline
- Position on Divorce and remarriage

just to name a few.

 

[prophet]

I am however a non Calvinist KJV Inedependent Baptist who believes in Biblical Pastoral Authourity...

Would you expound on that?

Umm, which part? (I am not trying to be vague, but each of those terms may require a lengthy explanation)

I, too, am a non calvinist, KJV, IFB - but, have withdrawn my membership from the NADD.

Pastoral Authority is the part most here would question.  This term has a broad definition.  Some feel it to mean that the pastor tells you when and where you do everything in life - His word is God's word.  Some feel it to mean that the pastor guides the people in the study of the Bible.  Some feel this term to mean the pastor leads in the business of the church to be approved by members, while others think it means the pastor owns the church and does what he wants with it.  Pastoral Authority has been used to condone a multitude of sin, especially in the HAC model.

Recently, I thought I had found a good church home.  Then, in counseling, the pastor told me if I did not do what he suggested I should find another church.  I responded - OK.  A pastor does not control the life of the member, he only guides through the Scripture.  I have left the NADD - I no longer direct my life according to one man's unsubstantiated whims.  I have become much more Berean.

Ok, so sitting here with a cup of coffee, thought I would respond a little.

Concerning Pastoral Authourity. Sure does have a broad definition, or at least application.

I believe the Pastor has a six fold office.
Bishop 1Timothy 3, Titus 1
Elder 1Timothy 5, 1Peter 5
Minister Colossians 4, 1Thessalonians 3, 1Timothy 1
Shepherd Acts 20:28, 1Peter 5:2
Teacher 1Timothy 3, 2Timothy 2
Preacher 2Timothy 4

So, Elder.
Elder in the faith, not a novice. It is interesting to note Jesus did not begin his recorded earthly ministry till the age of 30. (A very simplisitic answer for times sake) However

Minster.
One who serves. A Pastor ought to be a servant. Serve, help, give, shovel the widows driveway, help move a piano, clean the church. (Time constraints will vary, but willingness should not)

You're describing a Deacon's job, here.

Anishinaabe

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

I am however a non Calvinist KJV Inedependent Baptist who believes in Biblical Pastoral Authourity...

Would you expound on that?

Umm, which part? (I am not trying to be vague, but each of those terms may require a lengthy explanation)

I, too, am a non calvinist, KJV, IFB - but, have withdrawn my membership from the NADD.

Pastoral Authority is the part most here would question.  This term has a broad definition.  Some feel it to mean that the pastor tells you when and where you do everything in life - His word is God's word.  Some feel it to mean that the pastor guides the people in the study of the Bible.  Some feel this term to mean the pastor leads in the business of the church to be approved by members, while others think it means the pastor owns the church and does what he wants with it.  Pastoral Authority has been used to condone a multitude of sin, especially in the HAC model.

Recently, I thought I had found a good church home.  Then, in counseling, the pastor told me if I did not do what he suggested I should find another church.  I responded - OK.  A pastor does not control the life of the member, he only guides through the Scripture.  I have left the NADD - I no longer direct my life according to one man's unsubstantiated whims.  I have become much more Berean.

Ok, so sitting here with a cup of coffee, thought I would respond a little.

Concerning Pastoral Authourity. Sure does have a broad definition, or at least application.

I believe the Pastor has a six fold office.
Bishop 1Timothy 3, Titus 1
Elder 1Timothy 5, 1Peter 5
Minister Colossians 4, 1Thessalonians 3, 1Timothy 1
Shepherd Acts 20:28, 1Peter 5:2
Teacher 1Timothy 3, 2Timothy 2
Preacher 2Timothy 4

So, Elder.
Elder in the faith, not a novice. It is interesting to note Jesus did not begin his recorded earthly ministry till the age of 30. (A very simplisitic answer for times sake) However

Minster.
One who serves. A Pastor ought to be a servant. Serve, help, give, shovel the widows driveway, help move a piano, clean the church. (Time constraints will vary, but willingness should not)

You're describing a Deacon's job, here.

Anishinaabe

You are right, technically the qualification of "minister" is one that the Deacons are to fulfill, but the Pastor is to lead by example. That was what the caveat was for, what will change is the Pastors areas of responsibility, but what should not change is his willingness to minister.

When I moved, my pastor helped me among others that he helped.

 

[Bruh]

No specific reason.  It has already been confirmed because I walk with the Lord and the Holy Spirit does guide me as well. 

O.k I have you and your wife over to eat and I let you know the direction the Lord is leading me. 
Lets say I have been in church faithfully since I was in my earlier 20's and it has been at least 15 years.   
Would you have a problem with this? 

I clipped some of this off, replying was making the response crazy long.

Simple answer. No. No problem at all. I would help you move. Not to get rid of you, but to honor the 15 years you have served the Lord here.

And I would make sure the church understood to treat you properly when you leave, and welcome you with open arms if you come to visit.

Yeah, I gotcha.  I just don't know how to do that.  I tried on another post but messed it all up.   

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I am however a non Calvinist KJV Inedependent Baptist who believes in Biblical Pastoral Authourity...

Would you expound on that?

Umm, which part? (I am not trying to be vague, but each of those terms may require a lengthy explanation)

I, too, am a non calvinist, KJV, IFB - but, have withdrawn my membership from the NADD.

Pastoral Authority is the part most here would question.  This term has a broad definition.  Some feel it to mean that the pastor tells you when and where you do everything in life - His word is God's word.  Some feel it to mean that the pastor guides the people in the study of the Bible.  Some feel this term to mean the pastor leads in the business of the church to be approved by members, while others think it means the pastor owns the church and does what he wants with it.  Pastoral Authority has been used to condone a multitude of sin, especially in the HAC model.

Recently, I thought I had found a good church home.  Then, in counseling, the pastor told me if I did not do what he suggested I should find another church.  I responded - OK.  A pastor does not control the life of the member, he only guides through the Scripture.  I have left the NADD - I no longer direct my life according to one man's unsubstantiated whims.  I have become much more Berean.

Ok, so sitting here with a cup of coffee, thought I would respond a little.

Concerning Pastoral Authourity. Sure does have a broad definition, or at least application.

I believe the Pastor has a six fold office.
Bishop 1Timothy 3, Titus 1
Elder 1Timothy 5, 1Peter 5
Minister Colossians 4, 1Thessalonians 3, 1Timothy 1
Shepherd Acts 20:28, 1Peter 5:2
Teacher 1Timothy 3, 2Timothy 2
Preacher 2Timothy 4

So, Elder.
Elder in the faith, not a novice. It is interesting to note Jesus did not begin his recorded earthly ministry till the age of 30. (A very simplisitic answer for times sake) However,

Teacher.
One who teaches. Able to to topically and expositorally expound upon the Word of God as well as offer life application.

Preacher
One who preaches. This is different than teaching. Teaching is about facts, preaching is about faith. Acting in faith upon the facts.

Minster.
One who serves. A Pastor ought to be a servant. Serve, help, give, shovel the widows driveway, help move a piano, clean the church. (Time constraints will vary, but willingness should not)

Shepherd
Protector of the flock. Warn against sinful conduct and it's consequences, warn against wolves, chase the wolves away, expose the wolves hiding among the sheep.

Now to Bishop
Administrator. Superintendent. Being Baptist, this office is not separate to the Pastorate, but part of the Pastorate. That's the definition, now the application.

To understand his role, we need to understand the role of members. The concept here is hard to put in simple terms. For one to lead, one must follow. While this is on the surface obvious, it is harder to practice in a church. At work we submit to authourity because of the overwhelming significance of not doing so. Loss of job, loss of paycheque, and the consequences just keep multiplying. The consequences of the decision to not submit to Pastoral Authourity (which I am going to try to put in better detail) are much less obvious and less immediate. As a result we devalue the Pastors Authourity.

The Bishop (now commonly called the Pastor) is to preside over all business meetings. What he is to do is lead in accordance with the Word of God, and the direction of the Holy Spirit, and then let the people decide. Now, this is for major expenditures. He ought to have discretionary spending. It is appropriate for the church to set limits on that spending. Without discretionary spending, we need a formal meeting to approve the purchase of toilet paper, light bulbs and paper clips. Without limits, he has no accountability. He is to choose and or approve all paid and voluntary workers, including SS Teachers, Music Leaders, etc. He is to vet all missionaries. He is to oversee the choice of pulpit supply in his absence. He is to be the primary source of counsel in the church. He is to approve the church schedule including weekly services and activities. In other words, he is to oversee all of the business and function of the church. He is to oversee any church discipline that may become necessary.

This is some of the what of the Bishop, not the how. This is all to be done openly, with a loving spirit, and not a dictators decree.

Now, let me interject a little in church discipline. He may only begin the process of discipline if the reason fits within the bounds of scripture. He may not act outside of that, and if he does, he should be held accountable by the membership.

We could make up hypotheticals all day long, but the principle remains. He is to lead, lovingly, caringly, but lead. The church is too follow. Not blindly, yes carefully, but still follow.

That is a summary of my view on Pastoral Authourity.

Now, you mentioned in the post I quoted that you ran into something in counselling in regards to finding another church.

First of all, in the comment I am going to make, I am not passing judgement. I do not know you, I do not know your pastor, and I do not know the situation, so I am commenting tongue in cheek as it were.

I want to clarify terms first. Counselling and confronting are different. I believe if a pastor is off doctrinally, members have a right and responsibility to confront him. Now, appropriately. I have seen Charismatics leap up in the middle of a service in a Baptist Church and nearly hurl their Bible at the Preacher while castigating him. Clearly inappropriate. (If you disagree, I may have found out why the pastor told you to move along, lol) Counselling is to receive advice on something I am unsure about. Ask a question, get the advice, and for the most part apply it.

Being a Pastor, I counsel. And in counselling, I have run into many types of people who come looking for counsel. Some do not want counsel. What they want is for someone to rubber-stamp what they have already decided to do. They do not ask for advice, they simply announce what they are doing, then go tell their friends "they got counsel on it" and "the preachers ok with it". As I continue in the ministry, I spend a lot less time trying to talk these folks out of their decision, but when things go wrong, I let it be known how they approached it, and I let them know that they don't really seek counsel, just approval. Then there are others who have the same intention, but they ask. They already have a preconcieved idea and they fully intend to do it. When my counsel contradicts there preconception, they argue. Incessantly, vociferously, without end, with the sole purpose of getting me to acquiesce. Eventually, I might tell someone like that to move along. Their spirit is wrong, and if they don't get it right, they will hurt the church. I repeat, I do not know you, or the situation, so I am not accusing you of being this way, but it is prevalent in churches. Then there are those who seek counsel, ask pressing practical questions in counsel, but follow basically none of your counsel. To these, I simply stop counselling. I am more than willing to help people, but less willing to waste my time in idle conversation about what one should do in a given situation with no purpose in mind than to talk about it.

I was long winded this morning. Hope there is a little clarity in my answer.

If you have a member of your church and they make a decision without seeking your counsel what is your response?

Say, I take a job in another state and choose not to seek your counsel, what would your response be to this family? 
Would they be wrong for not seeking your counsel?

Wrong? Hmm. Why wouldn't they seek my counsel? I have no problem letting people go, they are not mine, they are the Lord's. I am also not in a position to dictate the specific will of God for a person's life, but I do believe that it is the Pastor's job to confirm it.

See, as a Pastor, I see problems with the approach.

Lets say the family is young in the Lord, and doesn't have a lot of grounding. They just need to grow.

Now let's say the family is older in the Lord.
First of all, why didn't they seek my counsel? I might first ask myself, what did I do to offend them that they felt they couldn't come to me? If they felt they could come to me, then why did they choose not too?
Second, Is there a church of like faith and practice where they are going? What are the reasons for the move? If the simple answer is to better my family, there is a good church there, then "you will be missed Brother and Sister" If there isn't, then they shouldn't go.

Thirdly, how will they join that church? (Now I know the answer to my question here is that very few pastors practice what I am about to mention) They need letters of recommendation. Those letters are not to prevent them from leaving, but to protect the church they are going too. Now, we live in the 21st Century, I don't need a letter on letterhead, an email or a phone call will suffice, but if you come here, I am going to ask you where you came from, why you left, how you left, and why you are here. I am not trying to get in your business, the reason for this is to "Shepherd" this flock. I won't admit into membership people who leave apostate churches wrongly into membership until they have at least apologized for how they left. You don't have to apologize for leaving a church over doctrine, but you might have to apologize if you caused a split and took a bunch of people with you or if you were in a position of leadership and didn't allow the church reasonable time to cover your position. Odds are if they leave in a huff there and take a bunch of people with them, they will leave in a huff here and take a bunch of people with them.

Do I care if you leave to go to another state? No. Am I going to prevent you from joining the church you go to? No. But if that pastor calls, I am going to be honest with him. I am going to say, "yeah, I had no idea why they were leaving, they just up and left. Good folks, I just have no idea why they didn't let me know."

WHEW!  I bet you were a good bus captain.  I feel like it's Sunday night ???.

You started out pretty well, but then your HACker began to show. 

I have heard that we should commit to faithful men and not "waste time" on those who do not want advice (Oh, how that dogma was proclaimed at HAC and oh, how I never received any support from the staff when I had questions, with the exception of one teacher who is nameless here).  However, just because someone does not comply with my advice, does not mean I should not seek to disciple him to Jesus Christ.  This is a rather haughty spirit and the definition of a novice (easily lifted up in pride).  Especially is this true when a pastor gives advice that is not supported by any Scripture, and then threatens to withdraw membership from the family if his advice is not followed word-for-word.  Sorry, the pastor is to help others apply Scripture to their lives, not mandate what is done. 

Your concern over them not seeking your opinion on their move is reflective of a haughty spirit - again, a novice.  When I ask for Pastoral counsel, I am asking an observer to apply Scripture to a situation or decision that I need to make.  This is iron sharpening iron.  I do not ask a pastor to make decisions for me, give permission for what I want to do, or dictate my behavior, much less my residence.

One of the best pastoral counseling sessions I had was many years ago.  I asked my pastor if I should move to accept a new job in a new state in a new ministry.  He refused to tell me what God's will was.  He would only help me apply Scripture to the factors influencing my decision.  "Ultimately, that decision is between you and your wife and God.  You need to seek His mind, not mine."  WOW.  For the first time in my life, I received pastoral counsel.

Have fun on the night bus this Sunday! :

 

[RAIDER]

Thirdly, how will they join that church? (Now I know the answer to my question here is that very few pastors practice what I am about to mention) They need letters of recommendation. Those letters are not to prevent them from leaving, but to protect the church they are going too

Too bad church members can't send the same type letter so that the prospective church could avoid danger as well from a new pastor.

Ouch!!

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

WHEW!  I bet you were a good bus captain.  I feel like it's Sunday night ???.

You started out pretty well, but then your HACker began to show. 

I have heard that we should commit to faithful men and not "waste time" on those who do not want advice (Oh, how that dogma was proclaimed at HAC and oh, how I never received any support from the staff when I had questions, with the exception of one teacher who is nameless here).  However, just because someone does not comply with my advice, does not mean I should not seek to disciple him to Jesus Christ.  This is a rather haughty spirit and the definition of a novice (easily lifted up in pride).  Especially is this true when a pastor gives advice that is not supported by any Scripture, and then threatens to withdraw membership from the family if his advice is not followed word-for-word.  Sorry, the pastor is to help others apply Scripture to their lives, not mandate what is done. 

Your concern over them not seeking your opinion on their move is reflective of a haughty spirit - again, a novice.  When I ask for Pastoral counsel, I am asking an observer to apply Scripture to a situation or decision that I need to make.  This is iron sharpening iron.  I do not ask a pastor to make decisions for me, give permission for what I want to do, or dictate my behavior, much less my residence.

One of the best pastoral counseling sessions I had was many years ago.  I asked my pastor if I should move to accept a new job in a new state in a new ministry.  He refused to tell me what God's will was.  He would only help me apply Scripture to the factors influencing my decision.  "Ultimately, that decision is between you and your wife and God.  You need to seek His mind, not mine."  WOW.  For the first time in my life, I received pastoral counsel.

Have fun on the night bus this Sunday! :

Interesting response. Lot's of assumptions and interjections.

My HACker began to show? Huh. I have never been to FBCH or HAC in any capacity. Not college, not pastors school, not even "passing through town and stopped in for services".

As for those who don't want advice, I am in a ministry where I come in contact with a lot of people with addictions. I have spent hours, and hours and days getting asked advice on money, personal issues, a lot of "practical life issues". I have had them asked drunk and high, had them call the house drunk and high, and so I limit my time. I have been asked by a man who was sending his son to disciple under a pastor that had been caught in adultery what I thought, only to have him get upset when what I told him disagree with what he wanted to do. He sent his son anyways. Pretty haughty of me. Who was I to tell him and his son not to go to that church? How dare I? Sounds to me like you and him might get along Binaca Chugger. He didn't want counsel. He din't want Biblical Principle. He want rubber stamped approval.

Most church folks don't follow all my counsel. I don't mean my opinion, but my setting out Biblical principles for them. They follow some. Good folks follow most of it. I have never threatened their membership or their place of service in the church. I have simply reminded them of the principles. All Biblical Counsel is the application of Biblical Principles.

If you come to me and ask me about buying a vehicle, my "counsel" is not arbitrarily yeah or nay.
Is it a decent deal?
Is it a reliable model?
Does it fit in your budget?
(Principles of Stewardship)
Then ultimately, do you personally feel like God wants you to, or in other words, do you have peace about buying it?
(Principle of the Leading of The Holy Spirit)

That's it. Same for a house. More or less the same for a job.

My concern over someone moving without talking to their Pastor is not one of "Lording". I simply don't understand a membership that doesn't communicate. Bruh requalified the question. I answered. How does someone simply move? His question implied the pastor had no foreknowledge that they were moving, but that simply one Sunday they were there, then the next they weren't. And after a couple weeks the pastor would have to go ask around, "what happened to Bruh? Anyone seen him lately? Do they have the flu? They moved? Oh, ok, thanks for letting me know."

Doesn't seem like a spiritual way to do things to me.

It may be to you, but it certainly doesn't to me.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

WHEW!  I bet you were a good bus captain.  I feel like it's Sunday night ???.

You started out pretty well, but then your HACker began to show. 

I have heard that we should commit to faithful men and not "waste time" on those who do not want advice (Oh, how that dogma was proclaimed at HAC and oh, how I never received any support from the staff when I had questions, with the exception of one teacher who is nameless here).  However, just because someone does not comply with my advice, does not mean I should not seek to disciple him to Jesus Christ.  This is a rather haughty spirit and the definition of a novice (easily lifted up in pride).  Especially is this true when a pastor gives advice that is not supported by any Scripture, and then threatens to withdraw membership from the family if his advice is not followed word-for-word.  Sorry, the pastor is to help others apply Scripture to their lives, not mandate what is done. 

Your concern over them not seeking your opinion on their move is reflective of a haughty spirit - again, a novice.  When I ask for Pastoral counsel, I am asking an observer to apply Scripture to a situation or decision that I need to make.  This is iron sharpening iron.  I do not ask a pastor to make decisions for me, give permission for what I want to do, or dictate my behavior, much less my residence.

One of the best pastoral counseling sessions I had was many years ago.  I asked my pastor if I should move to accept a new job in a new state in a new ministry.  He refused to tell me what God's will was.  He would only help me apply Scripture to the factors influencing my decision.  "Ultimately, that decision is between you and your wife and God.  You need to seek His mind, not mine."  WOW.  For the first time in my life, I received pastoral counsel.

Have fun on the night bus this Sunday! :

Interesting response. Lot's of assumptions and interjections.

My HACker began to show? Huh. I have never been to FBCH or HAC in any capacity. Not college, not pastors school, not even "passing through town and stopped in for services". Any literature that I have that came from FBCH/HAC is in a box in storage. I have been openly against what has been going on there for over 15 years.

As for those who don't want advice, I am in a ministry where I come in contact with a lot of people with addictions. I have spent hours, and hours and days getting asked advice on money, personal issues, a lot of "practical life issues". I have had them asked drunk and high, had them call the house drunk and high, and so I limit my time. I have been asked by a man who was sending his son to disciple under a pastor that had been caught in adultery what I thought, only to have him get upset when what I told him disagreed with what he wanted to do. He sent his son anyways. Pretty haughty of me. Who was I to tell him and his son not to go to that church? How dare I? Sounds to me like you and him might get along Binaca Chugger. He didn't want counsel. He didn't want Biblical Principle. He wanted rubber stamped approval.

Most church folks don't follow all my counsel. I don't mean my opinion, but my setting out Biblical principles for them. They follow some. Good folks follow most of it. I have never threatened their membership or their place of service in the church. I have simply reminded them of the principles. All Biblical Counsel is the application of Biblical Principles.

If you come to me and ask me about buying a vehicle, my "counsel" is not arbitrarily yeah or nay.
Is it a decent deal?
Is it a reliable model?
Does it fit in your budget?
(Principles of Stewardship)
Then ultimately, do you personally feel like God wants you to, or in other words, do you have peace about buying it?
(Principle of the Leading of The Holy Spirit)

That's it. Same for a house. More or less the same for a job.

My concern over someone moving without talking to their Pastor is not one of "Lording". I simply don't understand a membership that doesn't communicate. Bruh requalified the question. I answered. How does someone simply move? His original question implied the pastor had no foreknowledge that they were moving, but that simply one Sunday they were there, then the next they weren't. And after a couple weeks the pastor would have to go ask around, "what happened to Bruh? Anyone seen him lately? Do they have the flu? They moved? Oh, ok, thanks for letting me know."

Doesn't seem like a spiritual way to do things to me.

It may be to you, but it certainly doesn't to me.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

WHEW!  I bet you were a good bus captain.  I feel like it's Sunday night ???.

You started out pretty well, but then your HACker began to show. 

I have heard that we should commit to faithful men and not "waste time" on those who do not want advice (Oh, how that dogma was proclaimed at HAC and oh, how I never received any support from the staff when I had questions, with the exception of one teacher who is nameless here).  However, just because someone does not comply with my advice, does not mean I should not seek to disciple him to Jesus Christ.  This is a rather haughty spirit and the definition of a novice (easily lifted up in pride).  Especially is this true when a pastor gives advice that is not supported by any Scripture, and then threatens to withdraw membership from the family if his advice is not followed word-for-word.  Sorry, the pastor is to help others apply Scripture to their lives, not mandate what is done. 

Your concern over them not seeking your opinion on their move is reflective of a haughty spirit - again, a novice.  When I ask for Pastoral counsel, I am asking an observer to apply Scripture to a situation or decision that I need to make.  This is iron sharpening iron.  I do not ask a pastor to make decisions for me, give permission for what I want to do, or dictate my behavior, much less my residence.

One of the best pastoral counseling sessions I had was many years ago.  I asked my pastor if I should move to accept a new job in a new state in a new ministry.  He refused to tell me what God's will was.  He would only help me apply Scripture to the factors influencing my decision.  "Ultimately, that decision is between you and your wife and God.  You need to seek His mind, not mine."  WOW.  For the first time in my life, I received pastoral counsel.

Have fun on the night bus this Sunday! :

Interesting response. Lot's of assumptions and interjections.

My HACker began to show? Huh. I have never been to FBCH or HAC in any capacity. Not college, not pastors school, not even "passing through town and stopped in for services". Any literature that I have that came from FBCH/HAC is in a box in storage. I have been openly against what has been going on there for over 15 years.

As for those who don't want advice, I am in a ministry where I come in contact with a lot of people with addictions. I have spent hours, and hours and days getting asked advice on money, personal issues, a lot of "practical life issues". I have had them asked drunk and high, had them call the house drunk and high, and so I limit my time. I have been asked by a man who was sending his son to disciple under a pastor that had been caught in adultery what I thought, only to have him get upset when what I told him disagreed with what he wanted to do. He sent his son anyways. Pretty haughty of me. Who was I to tell him and his son not to go to that church? How dare I? Sounds to me like you and him might get along Binaca Chugger. He didn't want counsel. He didn't want Biblical Principle. He wanted rubber stamped approval.

Most church folks don't follow all my counsel. I don't mean my opinion, but my setting out Biblical principles for them. They follow some. Good folks follow most of it. I have never threatened their membership or their place of service in the church. I have simply reminded them of the principles. All Biblical Counsel is the application of Biblical Principles.

If you come to me and ask me about buying a vehicle, my "counsel" is not arbitrarily yeah or nay.
Is it a decent deal?
Is it a reliable model?
Does it fit in your budget?
(Principles of Stewardship)
Then ultimately, do you personally feel like God wants you to, or in other words, do you have peace about buying it?
(Principle of the Leading of The Holy Spirit)

That's it. Same for a house. More or less the same for a job.

My concern over someone moving without talking to their Pastor is not one of "Lording". I simply don't understand a membership that doesn't communicate. Bruh requalified the question. I answered. How does someone simply move? His original question implied the pastor had no foreknowledge that they were moving, but that simply one Sunday they were there, then the next they weren't. And after a couple weeks the pastor would have to go ask around, "what happened to Bruh? Anyone seen him lately? Do they have the flu? They moved? Oh, ok, thanks for letting me know."

Doesn't seem like a spiritual way to do things to me.

It may be to you, but it certainly doesn't to me.

Okay, so, you aren't a HACker.  FYI: You are posting in the HACker section.  So, you don't understand where many people here are coming from.  For starters, you don't get the jokes built into the response.  Sorry you missed out on the jokes.

Next, you don't understand what many here have been through.  Pastors should not be dictators.  In the HAC model, a pastor mandates every decision for every church member.  An individual Christian is not able to understand God's will on his own, he must ask the pastor (or ministry leader) his opinion.  Interestingly, his opinion is always the same for every person - serve the pastor.  This pastoral dictatorship is rooted and founded in performance based Christianity and based upon the following principles:
1.  Korah's destruction: Never question your leader or God will destroy you
2.  Pastor's give account: If you disappoint or disobey your pastor, he will report you to God and you will be punished
3.  Be ye followers of me: Only the pastor can really know God, the laity must simply follow the pastor

This model has destroyed many lives.  I am no longer involved in Performance Based Christianity (PBC).  I no longer allow anyone to mandate what I do.  I have counselors who are pastors that I trust to take the Scripture and guide me into understanding.  I do not allow any man, no matter his position, to dictate my life and submit to his counsel that is solely his opinion.  When a pastor threatens to ban a member from church because the member does not absolutely obey every statement of the pastor - he is a dictator.

Posting in this section of the forum leads others to believe you understand this model.  Sorry you don't understand.  Working with addicts, obviously your paradigm is a little different.  Your counseling is different than a pastor dealing with older Christians.  With further explanation, sounds like you are pastoring more than dictating. 

Still, you should know that many have been abused by this inappropriate model of pastoral leadership.  In fact, that is what has driven many here to join the forum and begin to converse.

 

[PappaBear]

Thirdly, how will they join that church? (Now I know the answer to my question here is that very few pastors practice what I am about to mention) They need letters of recommendation. Those letters are not to prevent them from leaving, but to protect the church they are going too

Too bad church members can't send the same type letter so that the prospective church could avoid danger as well from a new pastor.

And just why can't they?  They should!

 

[prophet]

WHEW!  I bet you were a good bus captain.  I feel like it's Sunday night ???.

You started out pretty well, but then your HACker began to show. 

I have heard that we should commit to faithful men and not "waste time" on those who do not want advice (Oh, how that dogma was proclaimed at HAC and oh, how I never received any support from the staff when I had questions, with the exception of one teacher who is nameless here).  However, just because someone does not comply with my advice, does not mean I should not seek to disciple him to Jesus Christ.  This is a rather haughty spirit and the definition of a novice (easily lifted up in pride).  Especially is this true when a pastor gives advice that is not supported by any Scripture, and then threatens to withdraw membership from the family if his advice is not followed word-for-word.  Sorry, the pastor is to help others apply Scripture to their lives, not mandate what is done. 

Your concern over them not seeking your opinion on their move is reflective of a haughty spirit - again, a novice.  When I ask for Pastoral counsel, I am asking an observer to apply Scripture to a situation or decision that I need to make.  This is iron sharpening iron.  I do not ask a pastor to make decisions for me, give permission for what I want to do, or dictate my behavior, much less my residence.

One of the best pastoral counseling sessions I had was many years ago.  I asked my pastor if I should move to accept a new job in a new state in a new ministry.  He refused to tell me what God's will was.  He would only help me apply Scripture to the factors influencing my decision.  "Ultimately, that decision is between you and your wife and God.  You need to seek His mind, not mine."  WOW.  For the first time in my life, I received pastoral counsel.

Have fun on the night bus this Sunday! :

Interesting response. Lot's of assumptions and interjections.

My HACker began to show? Huh. I have never been to FBCH or HAC in any capacity. Not college, not pastors school, not even "passing through town and stopped in for services". Any literature that I have that came from FBCH/HAC is in a box in storage. I have been openly against what has been going on there for over 15 years.

As for those who don't want advice, I am in a ministry where I come in contact with a lot of people with addictions. I have spent hours, and hours and days getting asked advice on money, personal issues, a lot of "practical life issues". I have had them asked drunk and high, had them call the house drunk and high, and so I limit my time. I have been asked by a man who was sending his son to disciple under a pastor that had been caught in adultery what I thought, only to have him get upset when what I told him disagreed with what he wanted to do. He sent his son anyways. Pretty haughty of me. Who was I to tell him and his son not to go to that church? How dare I? Sounds to me like you and him might get along Binaca Chugger. He didn't want counsel. He didn't want Biblical Principle. He wanted rubber stamped approval.

Most church folks don't follow all my counsel. I don't mean my opinion, but my setting out Biblical principles for them. They follow some. Good folks follow most of it. I have never threatened their membership or their place of service in the church. I have simply reminded them of the principles. All Biblical Counsel is the application of Biblical Principles.

If you come to me and ask me about buying a vehicle, my "counsel" is not arbitrarily yeah or nay.
Is it a decent deal?
Is it a reliable model?
Does it fit in your budget?
(Principles of Stewardship)
Then ultimately, do you personally feel like God wants you to, or in other words, do you have peace about buying it?
(Principle of the Leading of The Holy Spirit)

That's it. Same for a house. More or less the same for a job.

My concern over someone moving without talking to their Pastor is not one of "Lording". I simply don't understand a membership that doesn't communicate. Bruh requalified the question. I answered. How does someone simply move? His original question implied the pastor had no foreknowledge that they were moving, but that simply one Sunday they were there, then the next they weren't. And after a couple weeks the pastor would have to go ask around, "what happened to Bruh? Anyone seen him lately? Do they have the flu? They moved? Oh, ok, thanks for letting me know."

Doesn't seem like a spiritual way to do things to me.

It may be to you, but it certainly doesn't to me.

Okay, so, you aren't a HACker.  FYI: You are posting in the HACker section.  So, you don't understand where many people here are coming from.  For starters, you don't get the jokes built into the response.  Sorry you missed out on the jokes.

Next, you don't understand what many here have been through.  Pastors should not be dictators.  In the HAC model, a pastor mandates every decision for every church member.  An individual Christian is not able to understand God's will on his own, he must ask the pastor (or ministry leader) his opinion.  Interestingly, his opinion is always the same for every person - serve the pastor.  This pastoral dictatorship is rooted and founded in performance based Christianity and based upon the following principles:
1.  Korah's destruction: Never question your leader or God will destroy you
2.  Pastor's give account: If you disappoint or disobey your pastor, he will report you to God and you will be punished
3.  Be ye followers of me: Only the pastor can really know God, the laity must simply follow the pastor

This model has destroyed many lives.  I am no longer involved in Performance Based Christianity (PBC).  I no longer allow anyone to mandate what I do.  I have counselors who are pastors that I trust to take the Scripture and guide me into understanding.  I do not allow any man, no matter his position, to dictate my life and submit to his counsel that is solely his opinion.  When a pastor threatens to ban a member from church because the member does not absolutely obey every statement of the pastor - he is a dictator.

Posting in this section of the forum leads others to believe you understand this model.  Sorry you don't understand.  Working with addicts, obviously your paradigm is a little different.  Your counseling is different than a pastor dealing with older Christians.  With further explanation, sounds like you are pastoring more than dictating. 

Still, you should know that many have been abused by this inappropriate model of pastoral leadership.  In fact, that is what has driven many here to join the forum and begin to converse.

I addressed this recently, in a series on Baptist distinctives.  Individual Soul Liberty, and the Priesthood of the Believer are given lip service, but trampled, in the IFB HAC model.  The deeds of the Nicolaitines, which thing God hates, is the elevation of the 'clergy class' to a higher status than the 'laymen'.    Thanks to the intermeddling of Protestantism into IB Churches through the Fundamentalist Movement, the avg. Baptist pastor today is really not a Baptist in beliefs or practice.

Anishinaabe

 

[RAIDER]

It seems like many people who have posted on this thread have gotten tired of what they feel is excessive pastoral authority.  Some seem to blame it on the IFB movement.  I realize that there are plenty of IFB pastors who fall under this pattern, but I don't believe you can cast a blanket of blame on the whole movement.  There are many IFB pastors who do not hold to the excessive pastoral authority mindset.  I thank God that I am an IFB who has a humble, meek pastor.   

 

[Binaca Chugger]

It seems like many people who have posted on this thread have gotten tired of what they feel is excessive pastoral authority.  Some seem to blame it on the IFB movement.  I realize that there are plenty of IFB pastors who fall under this pattern, but I don't believe you can cast a blanket of blame on the whole movement.  There are many IFB pastors who do not hold to the excessive pastoral authority mindset.  I thank God that I am an IFB who has a humble, meek pastor. 

Where do you live?  I might move there.  I can't seem to find such a place.

 

[Fresh Air]

I thank God I'm a humble, meek pastor...

 

[Sherryh]

Don't move here its snowbird season and the traffic is crazy...but you can visit and listen to my pastor on iTunes...

 

[Binaca Chugger]

maybe internet church isn't a bad idea.  I get more Christian support from a "Fighting" forum than loving church members who actually shake my hand.  Who would I dial in to hear Baptist Fundamentals from a KJV without any CCM or PBC?

 

[RAIDER]

maybe internet church isn't a bad idea.  I get more Christian support from a "Fighting" forum than loving church members who actually shake my hand.  Who would I dial in to hear Baptist Fundamentals from a KJV without any CCM or PBC?

I'm sure you can find Ruckman somewhere on the internet. 

 

[RAIDER]

Since we have a few "newbies" I thought I would bring this thread forward so they can confess.