Binaca Chugger said:
ItinerantPreacher said:
Evelyn said:
ItinerantPreacher said:
I am however a non Calvinist KJV Inedependent Baptist who believes in Biblical Pastoral Authourity...
Would you expound on that?
Umm, which part? (I am not trying to be vague, but each of those terms may require a lengthy explanation)
I, too, am a non calvinist, KJV, IFB - but, have withdrawn my membership from the NADD.
Pastoral Authority is the part most here would question. This term has a broad definition. Some feel it to mean that the pastor tells you when and where you do everything in life - His word is God's word. Some feel it to mean that the pastor guides the people in the study of the Bible. Some feel this term to mean the pastor leads in the business of the church to be approved by members, while others think it means the pastor owns the church and does what he wants with it. Pastoral Authority has been used to condone a multitude of sin, especially in the HAC model.
Recently, I thought I had found a good church home. Then, in counseling, the pastor told me if I did not do what he suggested I should find another church. I responded - OK. A pastor does not control the life of the member, he only guides through the Scripture. I have left the NADD - I no longer direct my life according to one man's unsubstantiated whims. I have become much more Berean.
Ok, so sitting here with a cup of coffee, thought I would respond a little.
Concerning Pastoral Authourity. Sure does have a broad definition, or at least application.
I believe the Pastor has a six fold office.
Bishop 1Timothy 3, Titus 1
Elder 1Timothy 5, 1Peter 5
Minister Colossians 4, 1Thessalonians 3, 1Timothy 1
Shepherd Acts 20:28, 1Peter 5:2
Teacher 1Timothy 3, 2Timothy 2
Preacher 2Timothy 4
So, Elder.
Elder in the faith, not a novice. It is interesting to note Jesus did not begin his recorded earthly ministry till the age of 30. (A very simplisitic answer for times sake) However,
Teacher.
One who teaches. Able to to topically and expositorally expound upon the Word of God as well as offer life application.
Preacher
One who preaches. This is different than teaching. Teaching is about facts, preaching is about faith. Acting in faith upon the facts.
Minster.
One who serves. A Pastor ought to be a servant. Serve, help, give, shovel the widows driveway, help move a piano, clean the church. (Time constraints will vary, but willingness should not)
Shepherd
Protector of the flock. Warn against sinful conduct and it's consequences, warn against wolves, chase the wolves away, expose the wolves hiding among the sheep.
Now to Bishop
Administrator. Superintendent. Being Baptist, this office is not separate to the Pastorate, but part of the Pastorate. That's the definition, now the application.
To understand his role, we need to understand the role of members. The concept here is hard to put in simple terms. For one to lead, one must follow. While this is on the surface obvious, it is harder to practice in a church. At work we submit to authourity because of the overwhelming significance of not doing so. Loss of job, loss of paycheque, and the consequences just keep multiplying. The consequences of the decision to not submit to Pastoral Authourity (which I am going to try to put in better detail) are much less obvious and less immediate. As a result we devalue the Pastors Authourity.
The Bishop (now commonly called the Pastor) is to preside over all business meetings. What he is to do is lead in accordance with the Word of God, and the direction of the Holy Spirit, and then let the people decide. Now, this is for major expenditures. He ought to have discretionary spending. It is appropriate for the church to set limits on that spending. Without discretionary spending, we need a formal meeting to approve the purchase of toilet paper, light bulbs and paper clips. Without limits, he has no accountability. He is to choose and or approve all paid and voluntary workers, including SS Teachers, Music Leaders, etc. He is to vet all missionaries. He is to oversee the choice of pulpit supply in his absence. He is to be the primary source of counsel in the church. He is to approve the church schedule including weekly services and activities. In other words, he is to oversee all of the business and function of the church. He is to oversee any church discipline that may become necessary.
This is some of the what of the Bishop, not the how. This is all to be done openly, with a loving spirit, and not a dictators decree.
Now, let me interject a little in church discipline. He may only begin the process of discipline if the reason fits within the bounds of scripture. He may not act outside of that, and if he does, he should be held accountable by the membership.
We could make up hypotheticals all day long, but the principle remains. He is to lead, lovingly, caringly, but lead. The church is too follow. Not blindly, yes carefully, but still follow.
That is a summary of my view on Pastoral Authourity.
Now, you mentioned in the post I quoted that you ran into something in counselling in regards to finding another church.
First of all, in the comment I am going to make, I am not passing judgement. I do not know you, I do not know your pastor, and I do not know the situation, so I am commenting tongue in cheek as it were.
I want to clarify terms first. Counselling and confronting are different. I believe if a pastor is off doctrinally, members have a right and responsibility to confront him. Now, appropriately. I have seen Charismatics leap up in the middle of a service in a Baptist Church and nearly hurl their Bible at the Preacher while castigating him. Clearly inappropriate. (If you disagree, I may have found out why the pastor told you to move along, lol) Counselling is to receive advice on something I am unsure about. Ask a question, get the advice, and for the most part apply it.
Being a Pastor, I counsel. And in counselling, I have run into many types of people who come looking for counsel. Some do not want counsel. What they want is for someone to rubber-stamp what they have already decided to do. They do not ask for advice, they simply announce what they are doing, then go tell their friends "they got counsel on it" and "the preachers ok with it". As I continue in the ministry, I spend a lot less time trying to talk these folks out of their decision, but when things go wrong, I let it be known how they approached it, and I let them know that they don't really seek counsel, just approval. Then there are others who have the same intention, but they ask. They already have a preconcieved idea and they fully intend to do it. When my counsel contradicts there preconception, they argue. Incessantly, vociferously, without end, with the sole purpose of getting me to acquiesce. Eventually, I might tell someone like that to move along. Their spirit is wrong, and if they don't get it right, they will hurt the church. I repeat, I do not know you, or the situation, so I am not accusing you of being this way, but it is prevalent in churches. Then there are those who seek counsel, ask pressing practical questions in counsel, but follow basically none of your counsel. To these, I simply stop counselling. I am more than willing to help people, but less willing to waste my time in idle conversation about what one should do in a given situation with no purpose in mind than to talk about it.
I was long winded this morning. Hope there is a little clarity in my answer.
