David Baker arrested

Ekklesian said:
LOL. Okay, I'll bite. A somewhat buxom bartender is allowing patrons to sign her ample cleavage with a marker, and one cops a feel. That was an unwelcome advance and technically a sexual assault. (I was a witness to this event.) Is the bartender guiltless?
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i say yes.... she is guiltless.. ...is she also fabulously stupid for allowing patrons to do that to her?..... yes... ... but being stupid does not give others a right or reason to commit a sexual assault against you... or to engage in unwanted or unwelcomed physical contact.... ..those patrons only had permission to touch her in the way she told them they could....

real gentlemen don;t have to be told that it;s not ok to touch women without express permission... .. most know that even casual contact should never be assumed as "ok"... .... but then real gentlemen would never line up in a bar to sign a womans cleavage with a marker either.... ... .and that;s all i will say about that.......
 
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aleshanee said:
i say yes.... she is guiltless.. ...is she also fabulously stupid for allowing patrons to do that to her?..... yes... ... but being stupid does not give others a right or reason to commit a sexual assault against you... or to engage in unwanted or unwelcomed physical contact.... ..those patrons only had permission to touch her in the way she told them they could....

real gentlemen don;t have to be told that it;s not ok to touch women without express permission... .. most know that even casual contact should never be assumed as "ok"... .... but then real gentlemen would never line up in a bar to sign a womans cleavage with a marker either.... ... .and that;s all i will say about that.......
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She wasn't being stupid. Even if she were, the Scriptures tell us that fools, not seeing the danger in a situation, pass on and are punished. But she wasn't being stupid. She was just being a tease.

My question isn't, does that absolve the guy. It doesn't.

My question is, does the woman bear any moral responsibility for her part in the situation?

[And just in case there is any question, I was not a participant. I was at a table with my burger.]
 
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aleshanee said:
i say yes.... she is guiltless.. ...is she also fabulously stupid for allowing patrons to do that to her?..... yes... ... but being stupid does not give others a right or reason to commit a sexual assault against you... or to engage in unwanted or unwelcomed physical contact.... ..those patrons only had permission to touch her in the way she told them they could.... ad
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I'm sorry, but I'll have to disagree with you on this one. My sister-in-law led a guy on. She was a minor, and she knew full well what she was doing...not stupidity there, just willful participation. The guy she was with was just a few days out of being considered a minor himself...when they were caught by someone and reported, she cried rape. That's NOT sexual assault. It's always been strange to me how many women will ALWAYS side with the female whether she's guilty or not. Let's get honest and let's assign to them their portion of the blame.
aleshanee said:
real gentlemen don;t have to be told that it;s not ok to touch women without express permission... .. most know that even casual contact should never be assumed as "ok"... .... but then real gentlemen would never line up in a bar to sign a womans cleavage with a marker either.... ... .and that;s all i will say about that.......
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Again, I have to disagree. "Real Gentlement" isn't the issue here. Both are equally guilty. Both share in the blame in this case. Women should not be given a free pass when it's clear that they were willing participants. It may make some here shun me, but, having family in law enforcement, and then many who are nurses, after listening to their conversations it's clear that most of them know and will fully agree that many women are given a free pass and be excused because they are female. Aleshanee, you know that I'm a defender of women, and I would still defend a women in these cases, but, I will not absolve them of guilt when it's clear that they were willful participants.
 
Ekklesian said:
LOL. Okay, I'll bite. A somewhat buxom bartender is allowing patrons to sign her ample cleavage with a marker, and one cops a feel. That was an unwelcome advance and technically a sexual assault. (I was a witness to this event.) Is the bartender guiltless?
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Of the sexual assault, yes. Consent to signing her cleavage doesn't imply consent to being groped.

Permitting patrons to autograph her mammaries shows immodesty and poor judgment, but that is a separate and distinct issue.
 
Ekklesian said:
She wasn't being stupid. Even if she were, the Scriptures tell us that fools, not seeing the danger in a situation, pass on and are punished. But she wasn't being stupid. She was just being a tease.

My question isn't, does that absolve the guy. It doesn't.

My question is, does the woman bear any moral responsibility for her part in the situation?

[And just in case there is any question, I was not a participant. I was at a table with my burger.]
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i am not going to argue with you on this one... .. you were there and witnessed the event you described and i was not..... . perhaps you saw one of the rare female workers in an establishment that serves alcohol - teasing strange men by way of an activity that has gotten many a female bar worker and night club hostess stalked and later murdered - who was not stupid...... ....

but i grew up for the first 10 years of my life being dragged into such environments - spending many days and nights in the back rooms behind the stages in stripper clubs of all sorts while my mom performed on stage.... and after she went to prison i was in those places for short while when my natural sister who brought me to hawaii did the same.... (until she could get it arranged for me to stay at home by myself safely while she worked)......... ....

even from the back rooms i had an ample view of all the establishments and i saw things similar to what you described carried out and some things many times worse in all those places i was taken into... what you described was mild compared to some of the things i saw done and which i can;t even describe here without the risk of being banned.... .i also became well acquainted with the women who worked there along side my mom as they all changed clothes and got prepared for their performances in those rooms.... . and without exception the people i saw on both sides of the actvities both performing and paying others to see them perform were stupid.... ... incredibly stupid.... .... (would foolish be a better word?.... either way.. something was missing in that melon perched atop their neck.. something vital for personal safety and survival)

i loved my mom - even in the midst of the abuse she subjected me to - and what she allowed others to do to me..... i still have a love for her i can;t describe or even understand.... .. ..on paper and in many ways she was highly intelligent.... but she was also stupid..... stupid to believe she could live as she did and not suffer the consequences... .. she spent 10 years near the end of her life in prison and died of aids related complex a couple of years later.... .

i also loved my natural sister and owe my life to her quick and courageous actions that got me out of east los angeles and here to hawaii when our mother went to prison..... but she was also stupid.. (or foolish if you would rather call it that)...... she chose a very big and very dangerous night club bouncer who was also a drug user and dealer ..as her boyfriend..... because she said other people were afraid of him and it made her feel safe.... . a little over a year after she brought me here i saw him in a fit of rage murder her with a butcher knife in the kitchen where we all 3 lived.... .. i remember her as a person filled with love who was working hard trying to get out of the life our mother had put her into..... like our mom she was also very intelligent in many ways... . but also like our mom she was also incredibly stupid in other ways.. ..stupid in ways that got her killed..... ....

but should her stupidity and the fact she worked in the sex trade - a very immoral business - have exhonerated or lessened the blame of any of the men who abused her thoughout her life or reduced the sentence that was handed down to her murderer?..... he didn;t think so himself.... in fact that very night he confessed to what he did and as he was handcuffed and rolling on his belly on the kitchen floor he started screaming crying and begging police to shoot him and kill him... .....ironically... and from what i understand of history... there are times in the past and in certain other countries and cultures when he would gotten off scot free and never been charged.... . just the fact of what she was and how she made her living would have made her fair game to anyone who wanted to abuse her or even kill her....... ......

sadly........ and maybe i look at this with eyes a little too sensitive due the fact i was sexually abused for years in my moms house... and then accused of having been an "unusually promiscuous 5 year old - that only became more so in the next few years"... by the defense lawyer trying to get my mom and her clients off the hook... but i often see attitudes among fundamentalis christians and sometimes on this very forum reflective of what i saw in the men who frequented those night clubs and even of that which i saw in that lawyer - ....

and that attitude is this - - women like us... because of who we are and what we did.. or what we might have been subjected to.. whether it was our fault or not... are nothing but trash... used garbage and damaged goods... <--words that were applied to me right here on the fff by a former member someone here recently said he missed and wants to see here again..... and because of that we are all fair game... any man should be able to do or say anything he wants to us with impunity.... and nothing should be done to him about it..... .
 
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AverageJoe said:
I'm sorry, but I'll have to disagree with you on this one. My sister-in-law led a guy on. She was a minor, and she knew full well what she was doing...not stupidity there, just willful participation. The guy she was with was just a few days out of being considered a minor himself...when they were caught by someone and reported, she cried rape. That's NOT sexual assault. It's always been strange to me how many women will ALWAYS side with the female whether she's guilty or not. Let's get honest and let's assign to them their portion of the blame.

Again, I have to disagree. "Real Gentlement" isn't the issue here. Both are equally guilty. Both share in the blame in this case. Women should not be given a free pass when it's clear that they were willing participants. It may make some here shun me, but, having family in law enforcement, and then many who are nurses, after listening to their conversations it's clear that most of them know and will fully agree that many women are given a free pass and be excused because they are female. Aleshanee, you know that I'm a defender of women, and I would still defend a women in these cases, but, I will not absolve them of guilt when it's clear that they were willful participants.
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again... like i told ekk.... i know nothing about the event you described involving your sister in law other than what you told me..... . so i can;t comment on her mental acuity... she might be just as smart as you say... .. but most of the girls i know and know of who did things similar to that were in fact stupid..... if for no other reason stupid for believing they could falsely accuse someone and get away it..... and he was stupid for allowing himself to be led on like that.... (maybe foolish would be a better word to use rather than stupid... but in that we would just be playing semantics or splitting hairs... ) ...

i agree that if what happened is exactly as you say then it was not rape..... but it also something that never should have happened and which both of them were apparently not mature enough to handle... . either legally or emotionally either one......... and just as it seems strange to you that women always side with other women in these kinds of things it doesn;t seem strange to me at all....... we have the most to risk and the most to lose in these situations no matter how they turn out..... unless she has an angry relative with a shotgun getting a girl pregnant does not put a young mans life in danger.... . but a girls life is in danger from the moment the event that could leave her that way starts.... ..

and as far as who is to blame?...... there is a difference in moral responsibility (which we all bear the weight of)... and legal liability.... .and i am sure you know this having family members in law enforcement...... both people in the event you described bear moral responsibility as does both the men and the woman behind the bar in ekklesians account .... and the girl in your account might bear legal liability too... even more so if she lied and it can be proven... ...... but is the woman in ekks accounts also legally liable if one of the patrons carries it too far and takes a liberty she did not give him?.... ...... let me ask to you this way......... is a store manager legally liable when a customer decides to shoplift a few items rather than pay for them?.... what if the thing he shoplifted was on the floor and not on the shelf where it should have been?.... ..

i understand and know full well that there are women that lead men on and falsely cry rape or abuse when the thing they willingly took part in gets discovered.... . but i also know full well that there are many more women who get falsely accused of doing that by a man who abused or harrassed her and wants to get off the hook..... ..i have been witness to both things happening many times but i have seen women falsely accused far more often than i have women falsely accuse men....... and like i told ekk - concerning the judge in the hearing i told about - i was accused of being the one at fault when i was 5 years old... and accused of being at fault of every instance that took place after that until it was all discovered by medical persononnel just before i turned 9.... .

no really does mean no.... regardless of what a womans eyes or body language might say... and regardles of what a boys raging hormones might be telling him she is saying.. or what a middle aged man might be wishing for... . if a woman of any age says no ... that should be the end of it..... .plain and simple...(and if the woman in question is still a child then the word no should not have to be said... it should be automatically understood).... .. ... ...

however.... if a woman of legal age tells a hopeful young man no... and didn;t really mean it ...and then has to suffer watching the love of her life walk away having taken her words verabatem... then maybe she will learn to be more careful with her words next time..... a smart boy or man of any age will walk away every time when he hears the word no... and if they are not that smart on their own they should be taught to not play the game.... when the word no comes out it;s time to walk away..... . and why would any smart man want to be involved with a woman playing sly games with her words like that anyway?....... he shouldn;t......... .

as far as the "real gentlemen" statement goes.... i disagree right back atchya... . i think you completely misunderstood what i was saying there........ there was no real "gentleman" in the situation ekk was describing.... . and that was my point.... any realy gentleman would not have been a part of that .... so yes....both sides were wrong in general even though one ... the man... committed an offense worthy of penalty.... .....
 
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AverageJoe said:
And Bruh is trying to do this quite a bit in here. He's a 'baiter'...
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😂 no I’m not I genuinely want a conversation about this. Ur gonna have to explain what you mean that I’m baiting on this topic.
 
Ekklesian said:
She wasn't being stupid. Even if she were, the Scriptures tell us that fools, not seeing the danger in a situation, pass on and are punished. But she wasn't being stupid. She was just being a tease.

My question isn't, does that absolve the guy. It doesn't.

My question is, does the woman bear any moral responsibility for her part in the situation?

[And just in case there is any question, I was not a participant. I was at a table with my burger.]
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No she doesn’t bear any fault for the assault.
 
Bruh said:
😂 no I’m not I genuinely want a conversation about this. Ur gonna have to explain what you mean that I’m baiting on this topic.
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You know that if someone says "The woman is .0001% at fault," that you will blast them with all kinds of arguments showing them to be a fool for defending sick sinful men. I'm not saying if they are guilty one way or another, but your method of discussing tires me out. Rather, if someone asks you a question, answer them.
 
Bob Jones VI said:
You know that if someone says "The woman is .0001% at fault," that you will blast them with all kinds of arguments showing them to be a fool for defending sick sinful men. I'm not saying if they are guilty one way or another, but your method of discussing tires me out. Rather, if someone asks you a question, answer them.
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Don't expect that. I find him sort of "freaky." He's beginning to sound like a sock-puppet of X....UGH!
 
aleshanee said:
i am not going to argue with you on this one... .. you were there and witnessed the event you described and i was not..... . perhaps you saw one of the rare female workers in an establishment that serves alcohol - teasing strange men by way of an activity that has gotten many a female bar worker and night club hostess stalked and later murdered - who was not stupid...... ....

but i grew up for the first 10 years of my life being dragged into such environments - spending many days and nights in the back rooms behind the stages in stripper clubs of all sorts while my mom performed on stage.... and after she went to prison i was in those places for short while when my natural sister who brought me to hawaii did the same.... (until she could get it arranged for me to stay at home by myself safely while she worked)......... ....

even from the back rooms i had an ample view of all the establishments and i saw things similar to what you described carried out and some things many times worse in all those places i was taken into... what you described was mild compared to some of the things i saw done and which i can;t even describe here without the risk of being banned.... .i also became well acquainted with the women who worked there along side my mom as they all changed clothes and got prepared for their performances in those rooms.... . and without exception the people i saw on both sides of the actvities both performing and paying others to see them perform were stupid.... ... incredibly stupid.... .... (would foolish be a better word?.... either way.. something was missing in that melon perched atop their neck.. something vital for personal safety and survival)

i loved my mom - even in the midst of the abuse she subjected me to - and what she allowed others to do to me..... i still have a love for her i can;t describe or even understand.... .. ..on paper and in many ways she was highly intelligent.... but she was also stupid..... stupid to believe she could live as she did and not suffer the consequences... .. she spent 10 years near the end of her life in prison and died of aids related complex a couple of years later.... .

i also loved my natural sister and owe my life to her quick and courageous actions that got me out of east los angeles and here to hawaii when our mother went to prison..... but she was also stupid.. (or foolish if you would rather call it that)...... she chose a very big and very dangerous night club bouncer who was also a drug user and dealer ..as her boyfriend..... because she said other people were afraid of him and it made her feel safe.... . a little over a year after she brought me here i saw him in a fit of rage murder her with a butcher knife in the kitchen where we all 3 lived.... .. i remember her as a person filled with love who was working hard trying to get out of the life our mother had put her into..... like our mom she was also very intelligent in many ways... . but also like our mom she was also incredibly stupid in other ways.. ..stupid in ways that got her killed..... ....

but should her stupidity and the fact she worked in the sex trade - a very immoral business - have exhonerated or lessened the blame of any of the men who abused her thoughout her life or reduced the sentence that was handed down to her murderer?..... he didn;t think so himself.... in fact that very night he confessed to what he did and as he was handcuffed and rolling on his belly on the kitchen floor he started screaming crying and begging police to shoot him and kill him... .....ironically... and from what i understand of history... there are times in the past and in certain other countries and cultures when he would gotten off scot free and never been charged.... . just the fact of what she was and how she made her living would have made her fair game to anyone who wanted to abuse her or even kill her....... ......

sadly........ and maybe i look at this with eyes a little too sensitive due the fact i was sexually abused for years in my moms house... and then accused of having been an "unusually promiscuous 5 year old - that only became more so in the next few years"... by the defense lawyer trying to get my mom and her clients off the hook... but i often see attitudes among fundamentalis christians and sometimes on this very forum reflective of what i saw in the men who frequented those night clubs and even of that which i saw in that lawyer - ....

and that attitude is this - - women like us... because of who we are and what we did.. or what we might have been subjected to.. whether it was our fault or not... are nothing but trash... used garbage and damaged goods... <--words that were applied to me right here on the fff by a former member someone here recently said he missed and wants to see here again..... and because of that we are all fair game... any man should be able to do or say anything he wants to us with impunity.... and nothing should be done to him about it..... .
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You are my hero you are a survivor I'm so proud of you today its unthinkable !! Thank you for letting us into your world so these people can see just a little of what you have gone through......love you my friend
 
This is a delicate question and the "never responsible" is the easy answer. In most situations I agree,

Where it's a little tougher is when professional (or college) athletes or performers have a girl back to their hotel room late at night then the next day they claim rape that's a little tougher. There is never an excuse to abuse anyone or force relations on someone, but in these situtions it's impossible to prove his innocence. How can he prove it was concentual? Same with when they come out 10, 20 or even 30 years later. We must teach our sisters and daughters never to put themselves in situations like that and to report even a hint of abuse to legal authorities who will not cover it up. Also I'm a firm believer of self defense classes.

When a girl goes to a strangers room late at night, she is clearly in the wrong, but if he forces her to do something he is still fully to blame. Lots of poor choices all around in these situations. Do you always believe the girl even in these situations?
 
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sword said:
This is a delicate question and the "never responsible" is the easy answer. In most situations I agree,

Where it's a little tougher is when professional (or college) athletes or performers have a girl back to their hotel room late at night then the next dy they claim rape thats a little tougher. There is never an excuse to abuse anyone or force relations on someone but in these situtions its impossible to prove his innocence. How can he prove it was concentual? Same with when they come out 10, 20 or even 30 years later. We must teach our sisters and daughters never to put themselves in situations like that and to report even a hint of abuse to legal authorities who will not cover it up. Also I'm a firm believer of self defense classes.

When a girl goes to a strangers room late at night, she is clearly in the wrong but if he forces her to do something he is still fully to blame. Lots of poor choices all around in these situations. Do you always believe the girl even in these situations?
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Like when Bill Hybels invited a married woman to travel with him for ministry, then invited her into his room for drinks and they had sex and 20 years later she claims it was unwanted?
 
sword said:
Where it's a little tougher is when professional (or college) athletes or performers have a girl back to their hotel room late at night then the next dy they claim rape thats a little tougher.
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Apples and oranges, however. What you are describing is, possibly, a false accusation of sexual assault. Not whether a woman's clothing, character, or prior behaviour entitles a man to sexual favours she didn't agree to.
 
Bob Jones VI said:
You know that if someone says "The woman is .0001% at fault," that you will blast them with all kinds of arguments showing them to be a fool for defending sick sinful men. I'm not saying if they are guilty one way or another, but your method of discussing tires me out. Rather, if someone asks you a question, answer them.
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I accept ur observation. I believe if someone ask me a question I do answer. I guess, I’m not seeing this? Not saying I’m not guilty of this but you’d need to give me an example.
 
Bruh said:
I accept ur observation. I believe if someone ask me a question I do answer. I guess, I’m not seeing this? Not saying I’m not guilty of this but you’d need to give me an example.
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My original point is this:

you asked Question. If a woman is ever sexually assaulted in any way shape or form is there any way possible she can bare some of the blame?
That is a loaded question. If I say yes, she bears some of the blame, you will recite Social Justice warriors ranting and raving about the power differential and the fact that if a man is in ministry, he is always at fault, not matter how she dresses.

If I say no, she is never at fault, you might say "even if she opens her blouse and drops her skirt on the floor in his office?"

It is a question that cannot be won. The answer is, It depends. It always depends.
 
Ekklesian said:
He's not absolved, but her sin was certainly the door for his.
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A husband expresses to his wife he’d like to have sex. The wife says, I’m not up to that tonight but we can do this. And the husband says, ok.

Later that night they are doing “this” but the husband is overcome with lust and does “that” without the wifes consent.

Is this the wifes fault being being raped in marriage?
 
Ransom said:
Of the sexual assault, yes. Consent to signing her cleavage doesn't imply consent to being groped.

Permitting patrons to autograph her mammaries shows immodesty and poor judgment, but that is a separate and distinct issue.
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You have a way with words.
 
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