Beer and Bible Study?

[Tarheel Baptist]

Scripture is FILLED with WARNINGS  about ALCOHOL ABUSE.
Alcohol abuse takes a greater toll on individuals and society IN EVERY WAy than any other vice, including gluttony. The court and penal system cost alone is tremendous!
There are no similar costs associated with gluttony.

I guess, if the facts don't fit your narrative, you just ignore the facts. (I'd recommend changing the narrative.)

And verses on alcohol abuse are abundant and well known.
I am thankful that you and anyone else has the liberty to drink.
I am thankful that I don't drink.
I believe flaunting alcohol use in a Church setting does abundantly more harm and little, if any, good.

The verses on gluttony are abundant and well-known. I don't see a thread called "Buffet and Bible Study?".

...and...

"using" ≠ "flaunting" (although I wouldn't use alcohol in a church setting...depending on how you define "church setting")

There is nothing in the realm of scripture, logic or illogic to prove any different.
But I have no problem with you making continued attempts to convince me otherwise.

Obesity and drunkenness are as much alike as a bicycle and a jet plane.

Psychiatry, general medicine, logic, and Scripture call you a liar.

Maybe you should start such a thread.
In this thread, I'll just let the facts in every area speak for themselves......and you might want to check the mirror for nose growth in the next little while......

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

Scripture is FILLED with WARNINGS  about ALCOHOL ABUSE.
Alcohol abuse takes a greater toll on individuals and society IN EVERY WAy than any other vice, including gluttony. The court and penal system cost alone is tremendous!
There are no similar costs associated with gluttony.

I guess, if the facts don't fit your narrative, you just ignore the facts. (I'd recommend changing the narrative.)

And verses on alcohol abuse are abundant and well known.
I am thankful that you and anyone else has the liberty to drink.
I am thankful that I don't drink.
I believe flaunting alcohol use in a Church setting does abundantly more harm and little, if any, good.

The verses on gluttony are abundant and well-known. I don't see a thread called "Buffet and Bible Study?".

...and...

"using" ≠ "flaunting" (although I wouldn't use alcohol in a church setting...depending on how you define "church setting")

There is nothing in the realm of scripture, logic or illogic to prove any different.
But I have no problem with you making continued attempts to convince me otherwise.

Obesity and drunkenness are as much alike as a bicycle and a jet plane.

Psychiatry, general medicine, logic, and Scripture call you a liar.

Scripture in these verses seems to give the lie to you.  Anyone can pull scriptures out and try and make their point.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Funny, I don't see anything about obesity there.  Go figure.  The fact is that obesity and gluttony are two different things in some cases.  Gluttony is covetousness, as is adultery sometimes.  I had a maternal grandmother that was obese (very low metabolism), but wasn't glutonous.  She lived to be 92.  You can't paint with your broad legalistic brush and expect for everyone to just go along with your supposed conclusions.  Lust originates in the mind, and, when conceived, brings forth sin.  Don't try and defend drunkeness, you make yourself look bad.

 

[rsc2a]

BTW - there are also OT passages that condone polygamy and slavery.......
Praise the Lord and ask the slave to pass me wife #15!

Care to cite the verses?

And I don't want a lousy proof-text. I want something that exegetically supports what you are saying and takes into consideration both the prevailing culture at the time and the meta-narrative as a whole.

A lousy proof text?
Please......any blind man can see by the OT narrative that slavery and polygamy were commonplace and accepted. That doesn't  mean they were best or blessed by God.

"Commonplace and accepted" except by God....

...which is why I'd love to see those OT passages that condone either one.

Don't try and defend drunkeness, you make yourself look bad.

Jim...who has defended drunkenness?

 

[rsc2a]

Those who say Christians ought to all be teetotalers have dropped out several pages ago. Those of us who remain seem to all be agreed that alcohol abuse is bad, and that responsible use of alcohol is ok.

So I'm really not sure what we're arguing about anymore, other than just because we're in the habit of being argumentative.

Probably. 

Which is why I'll let this be my last post...

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Those who say Christians ought to all be teetotalers have dropped out several pages ago. Those of us who remain seem to all be agreed that alcohol abuse is bad, and that responsible use of alcohol is ok.

So I'm really not sure what we're arguing about anymore, other than just because we're in the habit of being argumentative.

Probably. 

Which is why I'll let this be my last post...

Come on....it IS the fighting forum.....

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

Jim...who has defended drunkenness?
[/quote]

Bad choice of words. My apologies.  It just appears like that was what you were doing by comparing sins.  As I stated before, I am a little prejudiced on this subject.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

• J

BTW - there are also OT passages that condone polygamy and slavery.......
Praise the Lord and ask the slave to pass me wife #15!

Care to cite the verses?

And I don't want a lousy proof-text. I want something that exegetically supports what you are saying and takes into consideration both the prevailing culture at the time and the meta-narrative as a whole.

A lousy proof text?
Please......any blind man can see by the OT narrative that slavery and polygamy were commonplace and accepted. That doesn't  mean they were best or blessed by God.

"Commonplace and accepted" except by God....

...which is why I'd love to see those OT passages that condone either one.

Don't try and defend drunkeness, you make yourself look bad.

Jim...who has defended drunkenness?

Condone or 'wink at'.....but it seems to me the point is moot from the overwhelming narrative.
And, I don't  think you are defending drunkenness.

My point, as was made in the article cited in the OP, is that drinking should not be promoted, flaunted or celebrated by the church or church leadership.

To many, many people drinking is a source of great harm, trouble and sorrow.

 

[Izdaari]

My point, as was made in the article cited in the OP, is that drinking should not be promoted, flaunted or celebrated by the church or church leadership.

So we do still have a disagreement, and I still don't understand it. I've seen plenty of verbiage around the subject, but nothing that's to the point and makes sense to me.

If it's ok for Christians to drink responsibly...

And if it's ok for Christians to get together and discuss theology...

Why isn't it ok for them for have a beer while they do? After all, arguing doctrine is thirsty work.

And why should a church refrain from supporting and promoting a small group meeting (an activity that the church would otherwise encourage) because of the choice of refreshments?

To many, many people drinking is a source of great harm, trouble and sorrow.

Not in dispute. Those individuals should of course stay away.

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

To many, many people drinking is a source of great harm, trouble and sorrow.

Not in dispute. Those individuals should of course stay away.
[/quote]

So you are saying that it is the responsibility of those offended by the drinking to stay away, and not your responsibility to not offend those people?  Just trying to understand your view of Christian liberty here.

 

[Castor Muscular]

My point, as was made in the article cited in the OP, is that drinking should not be promoted, flaunted or celebrated by the church or church leadership.

So we do still have a disagreement, and I still don't understand it. I've seen plenty of verbiage around the subject, but nothing that's to the point and makes sense to me.

If it's ok for Christians to drink responsibly...

And if it's ok for Christians to get together and discuss theology...

Why isn't it ok for them for have a beer while they do? After all, arguing doctrine is thirsty work.

And why should a church refrain from supporting and promoting a small group meeting (an activity that the church would otherwise encourage) because of the choice of refreshments?

To many, many people drinking is a source of great harm, trouble and sorrow.

Not in dispute. Those individuals should of course stay away.

I'll drink to that.

 

[Izdaari]

To many, many people drinking is a source of great harm, trouble and sorrow.

Not in dispute. Those individuals should of course stay away.

So you are saying that it is the responsibility of those offended by the drinking to stay away, and not your responsibility to not offend those people?  Just trying to understand your view of Christian liberty here.

Sure, I'll see if I can clarify it for you.  8)

It's my responsibility not to invite someone whom I know has a drinking problem to such an event. I wouldn't want to tempt or enable an alcoholic who's been "on the wagon" to start drinking again. But because there are people who ought not to drink at all, doesn't mean I'm obligated to cancel all events that serve alcohol.

Just like I wouldn't invite a person on a strict diet to a Paula Dean-style high fat, high calorie feast. It would tempt them to break their diet, and that wouldn't be good. But I wouldn't cancel the event because some people are on a diet.

 

[rsc2a]

...to a Paula Dean-style high fat, high calorie feast...

That sounds....

...yum.

(Although I am hosting a Seder dinner Saturday. Other than the lack of starches, it should be quite enjoyable.)

 

[brianb]

Ask the question, "Why do people drink alcohol?", and you will understand that the abuse of it is one of the biggest problems that has plagued our society for years.  More people have been killed by drunk drivers than all the wars we have been involved in, yet Christians have the audacity to say it's ok to drink. Why?  What good purpose can come of alcohol consumption for most users? I will never understand the kind of Christianity that some people have in this country.  Never.

For those who favor the consumption of alcohol, I don't think you would if one of your closest loved ones was killed by a drunk driver.  But to each their own, I am not anyone's judge, and I may be prejudiced in my philosophy.

I don't drink....in fact I've never tasted beer, wine or liquor.
I do not however, believe the Bible condemns drinking , only drunkenness.
My father died a raging alcoholic, which is why I've never indulged.

I believe the uber relevant church culture today is wrong in this and many other areas.

What I have noticed is that there is a certain bad boy image associated with alcohol - that's the difference between today's view of alcohol by the world and say Luther's day - today's world is dominated by secular humanism whereas in Luther's day it was the Church so if there were any "even occasional drunks" they were few and shamed. The advertisers sell beer (for example) as a bad thing - you know when something is considered bad by most young people they will want it but if you tell them it's good for them well you get the picture. Most young people don't want something that's good for them - they want something that will make them feel good - they could care less about the nutritional value that some of us adults care about. Beer and Bible Study can be a good thing only if it for the glory of God - Sola Deo Gloria - something that was common to Lutherans and those of the Reformation. That isn't necessarily the case with a Beer and Bible Study - it could be a kind of Phariseeism where they are just showing the world a seemingly unusual form of religiosity in public.

 

[Izdaari]

What I have noticed is that there is a certain bad boy image associated with alcohol - that's the difference between today's view of alcohol by the world and say Luther's day - today's world is dominated by secular humanism whereas in Luther's day it was the Church so if there were any "even occasional drunks" they were few and shamed. The advertisers sell beer (for example) as a bad thing - you know when something is considered bad by most young people they will want it but if you tell them it's good for them well you get the picture. Most young people don't want something that's good for them - they want something that will make them feel good - they could care less about the nutritional value that some of us adults care about. Beer and Bible Study can be a good thing only if it for the glory of God - Sola Deo Gloria - something that was common to Lutherans and those of the Reformation. That isn't necessarily the case with a Beer and Bible Study - it could be a kind of Phariseeism where they are just showing the world a seemingly unusual form of religiosity in public.

Motivation does count for a lot. I think my church does Theology Pub in the right Luther-like Sola Deo Gloria spirit. It's not showing off to the world, nothing we brag about or use to draw new people in. The world doesn't even know we do it. It's not a secret or anything, but it's not publicized at all outside of the church.

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

"The world doesn't even know we do it. It's not a secret or anything, but it's not publicized at all outside of the church."[

Thankful for small favors.  I am sure that when the scripture admonishes us to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together, it was not talking about happy hour at the local pub and bible study.  JMHO

There are some people that can handle alcohol.  They don't get falling down drunk, but they are never going to convince me they don't do it for the buzz.  But some people can't handle it, and it takes control of them, and they end up drunks, or lose their wife, or cause someone else to lose their life.  Don't tell me that doesn't happen, as I know firsthand that it does.  I, personally, do not want to be the reason that someone else falls into the sin of drunkenness, or breaks the law by driving drunk and the consequences that can bring.  There is a stigma, like it or not, with drinking.  That can also cause shame to the name of Christ, imo.

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

One last thought here, and I will give it a rest.  Church sponsored bible studies with beer:  That is a major lawsuit waiting to happen.  Not wise at all, imho.

 

[brianb]

What I have noticed is that there is a certain bad boy image associated with alcohol - that's the difference between today's view of alcohol by the world and say Luther's day - today's world is dominated by secular humanism whereas in Luther's day it was the Church so if there were any "even occasional drunks" they were few and shamed. The advertisers sell beer (for example) as a bad thing - you know when something is considered bad by most young people they will want it but if you tell them it's good for them well you get the picture. Most young people don't want something that's good for them - they want something that will make them feel good - they could care less about the nutritional value that some of us adults care about. Beer and Bible Study can be a good thing only if it for the glory of God - Sola Deo Gloria - something that was common to Lutherans and those of the Reformation. That isn't necessarily the case with a Beer and Bible Study - it could be a kind of Phariseeism where they are just showing the world a seemingly unusual form of religiosity in public.

Motivation does count for a lot. I think my church does Theology Pub in the right Luther-like Sola Deo Gloria spirit. It's not showing off to the world, nothing we brag about or use to draw new people in. The world doesn't even know we do it. It's not a secret or anything, but it's not publicized at all outside of the church.

Well this whole thing seems strange to me. In Canada there are Bible studies in coffee shops or coffee houses as they are called - kind of like in the 1970s - but as far as I know not in pubs. It seems like an American thing to do to have a beer while talking theology or having a Bible study. I would hope that they would come away with a better understanding of God's word and love for the Bible than they do beer. It would be a shame if they didn't love God's word more than beer or any other earthly thing - Psalm 119.

 

[El Cid]

Beer is just mashed up grains rotted in water and sugar.  It has no nutritional value and no place in a Christians life.  All natural foods and plenty of exercise is the way to go.  Why do people seek after highs which should come natural by eating good and working hard?

 

[Izdaari]

Beer is just mashed up grains rotted in water and sugar.  It has no nutritional value and no place in a Christians life.  All natural foods and plenty of exercise is the way to go.  Why do people seek after highs which should come natural by eating good and working hard?

No nutritional value?

http://beer.about.com/od/beernutrition/a/beernutrition.htm

http://beer.about.com/od/beernutrition/a/beernutrition_2.htm

http://cholesterol.about.com/od/cholesterolnutrition101/a/beer.htm

Agreed that natural foods and plenty of exercise are good for you. I do both. But good beer (craft brewed, not mass market swill) is all natural, and current nutrition science consensus is that one beer a day is more healthy than no beer. We haven't been talking about wine, but a small amount of red wine per day is also healthy. It contains a heart healthy antioxidant called resveratrol.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/red-wine/HB00089

As for having no place in a Christian's life? Being an alcoholic has no place in a Christian's life, and Martin Luther's Sermon on Soberness and Moderation against Gluttony and Drunkenness, 1 Peter 4:7-11, May 18, 1539 is a classic as well as a hoot to read. I'm not finding a link to the full sermon online right now, but here's a small sample:

"God does not forbid you to drink, as do the Turks; he permits you to drink wine and beer: he does not make a law of it. But do not make a pig of yourself; remain a human being. If you are a human being, then keep your human self-control. Even though we do not have a command of God, we should nevertheless be ashamed that we are thus spit upon by other peoples. If you want to be a Christian, do not argue in this way: Nobody reproaches me, therefore God does not reproach me. So it has been from the time of Noah. And so it was with the Sodomites, who wanted to rape the angels; they were all so drunk they could not find the door. Sodom and Gomorrah perished because of a flood of drunkenness; this vice was punished. God does not tolerate such confusion and inordinate use of his creatures [i.e., food and drink]."

But drinking responsibly and in moderation has been a Christian tradition through the centuries from the beginning, and Calvin and Luther both loved their beer. It was not until the rise of the American temperance movement in the 1800's that it became fashionable for Christians to disapprove of beer... and that only in certain denominations.

 

[rsc2a]

But drinking responsibly and in moderation has been a Christian tradition through the centuries from the beginning, and Calvin and Luther both loved their beer. It was not until the rise of the American temperance movement in the 1800's that it became fashionable for Christians to disapprove of beer... and that only in certain denominations.

Kind of amusing how much bad theology came out of the 1800s and how pervasive it is in American Christian (i.e. "evangelical") culture.