Zimmerman case

[FSSL]

Are you sure they weren't just following your family like GZ was following TM?  Come on FSSL you have got to realize that these two incidents have nothing in common. --shaking my head--

C'mon graceandtruth you do have you realize that racism is prevalent, black on white. Which was the clearly stated point of my post. This is something you do not allow (from what I have seen) in your discussions on this.

 

[graceandtruth]

Look Graceandtruth,
I am a white guy from yuppy New Hampshire.  I have a black uncle.  I dated a black girl in High School.  Racism was something I read about but did not experience.
I went to college in Knoxville, TN.  I worked in the inner city there.  I saw stuff that made me weep every day.  I still see things that remind me of those days and cry.  I would love to do something about it.
I've been targeted as a yankee.  I've had kids pee in my coffee and call me carpetbagger, and joke about killing yankees.  I know it's not fun to be on the wrong end of prejudice.
As much as I'd love to do something about the plight of the black man, as much as I hate that black america is where black america is, I loathe even more the accusation that because I am a european american, that I am somehow responsible.  Many of my ancestors didn't come here from scotland until 75 years after the emancipation proclamation.
From an outsiders perspective, it looks like Zimmerman was an overly zealous neighborhood nanny who was forced to protect himself against an angry and violent teenager.  I'm sorry, I'm not buying the child bit.  I've been around enough 17 year olds to know that in the violence and self-defense department, they can be every bit as much a threat as a 37 year old.
To me it looks like the Black community saw an opportunity to fan the flames of racial tension and the blew on it for all it is worth, willfully ignoring the parts of Zimmerman's past and character that make him an unlikely racist bully, and purposely downplaying his hispanic descent.
In my opinion, national cases like this do nothing to help african americans.  They enable generations of AA youth to take a victim mentality, and sacrifice the proactivity which is in many cases the only thing that is going to improve their lot. 
That's not paternalism, it's the truth.

Not a problem.  I would say that TM was attempting to not become a victim but it appears everyone is quite content that he ended up the victim any way.

We are a resilient group.  This has been the historic norm and your reactions have been the historic norm from your side of the street.  Much like the homosexual groups when their sin is pointed they cry homophobia and hate, most of white america has consistently cried racism and ignorance when we point out systemic and individual racism.  God has seen us through slavery, Jim Crow, and when a name is given to this era He will have seen us through it as well.  Sadly, the majority church has ALWAYS reacted as you have reacted to this situation until history revealed the error of their position then they adamantly protested that they opposed inhuman treatment of other humans all along. 

We are also well aware that we will have to fix our cultural problems and we can expect no help or grace from most of white america because the cultural problems are an excellent excuse for treating us inhumanely.

I have not been accused of being a racist outside of this forum either.  I have a white daughter-in-law, son-in-law, sister-in-law, and a very cute grandson that is bi-racial.  I am an IFB which is a group with almost no A-A representation unless you count little kids on a bus route inflating attendance numbers or chapels in A-A areas utilized to give would-be-preachers someone to practice on.  I usually don't bother with these types of conversations because this is normally the result.  I don't know why I am surprised.  I guess I expected different on a forum composed of people professing to be believers.

 

[Sherryh]

I don't think we will know the truth for a while.... I've been on a jury not as high profile as this but the verdict took several days.... I hope justice is served...

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=graceandtruth]We are a resilient group.  This has been the historic norm and your reactions have been the historic norm from your side of the street.  Much like the homosexual groups when their sin is pointed they cry homophobia and hate, most of white america has consistently cried racism and ignorance when we point out systemic and individual racism.  God has seen us through slavery, Jim Crow, and when a name is given to this era He will have seen us through it as well.  Sadly, the majority church has ALWAYS reacted as you have reacted to this situation until history revealed the error of their position then they adamantly protested that they opposed inhuman treatment of other humans all along. 

We are also well aware that we will have to fix our cultural problems and we can expect no help or grace from most of white america because the cultural problems are an excellent excuse for treating us inhumanely.[/quote]

"I have a dream...where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

Meanwhile certain others apparently want to keep making the issue skin color.

[quote author=graceandtruth]I have not been accused of being a racist outside of this forum either.  I have a white daughter-in-law, son-in-law, sister-in-law, and a very cute grandson that is bi-racial.  I am an IFB which is a group with almost no A-A representation unless you count little kids on a bus route inflating attendance numbers or chapels in A-A areas utilized to give would-be-preachers someone to practice on.  I usually don't bother with these types of conversations because this is normally the result.  I don't know why I am surprised.  I guess I expected different on a forum composed of people professing to be believers.[/quote]

"I'm not a racist but..."

 

[graceandtruth]

Not a problem.  I would say that TM was attempting to not become a victim but it appears everyone is quite content that he ended up the victim any way.

We are a resilient group.  This has been the historic norm and your reactions have been the historic norm from your side of the street.  Much like the homosexual groups when their sin is pointed they cry homophobia and hate, most of white america has consistently cried racism and ignorance when we point out systemic and individual racism.  God has seen us through slavery, Jim Crow, and when a name is given to this era He will have seen us through it as well.  Sadly, the majority church has ALWAYS reacted as you have reacted to this situation until history revealed the error of their position then they adamantly protested that they opposed inhuman treatment of other humans all along. 

We are also well aware that we will have to fix our cultural problems and we can expect no help or grace from most of white america because the cultural problems are an excellent excuse for treating us inhumanely.

I have not been accused of being a racist outside of this forum either.  I have a white daughter-in-law, son-in-law, sister-in-law, and a very cute grandson that is bi-racial.  I am an IFB which is a group with almost no A-A representation unless you count little kids on a bus route inflating attendance numbers or chapels in A-A areas utilized to give would-be-preachers someone to practice on.  I usually don't bother with these types of conversations because this is normally the result.  I don't know why I am surprised.  I guess I expected different on a forum composed of people professing to be believers.

not all of us are calling you a racist here either...... .. but there is something you have said consistently here that i still don;t understand..... ???.. .. like the prosecution you continue to refer to martin as a "child".... yet you also say he was "right" to go back and confront a "suspicious adult" who he believed was following him in the middle of the night........and you say your children would have done the same thing... ???..... i;m sorry but i can;t understand why any parent in their right mind would advise, or expect, a "child" to do such a thing?.....  i;m an adult... and i guarantee you i would run away if someone was following me like that... whether it was night or day....... ...i;m a short female,  and not physically fit at all compared to someone like martin.... .. but i am still quite confident i could out run a guy like george zimmerman, even on his best day....  and still be running long after he collapsed out of breath.....

which brings up another point......  martin really was both bigger, stronger and more physically fit....  much more so than zimmerman.... regardless of their numerical ages physically zimmerman was no match for martin..... .  and it seems obvious now that martin observed zimmerman at one point that night, after initially moving to evade him  and came to the same conclusion.....  then made the decision to return and confront zimmerman in an altercation martin should have had no reasonable fear he would lose.........  until zimmerman drew his gun...

zimmerman had no way of knowing martin was a "child" any more than martin could have known.. prior to the fight, that zimmerman was armed....  ...and martin wasn;t acting like a child either.....(i also seriously doubt that he thought of himself as a child).......  some people who wish to see zimmerman convicted of murder are saying that when martin came back to confront him that zimmerman is the one who should have run away......  .... well.....  maybe so.....  but after seeing the facts concerning the physical fitness of both participants in this tragedy.... . isn;t it possible zimmerman also realized martin was the stronger, more physically capable, of the two, and concluded that he would have no chance of outrunning him?......

if you had been on the phone with martin that night, and he described to you how he was being followed by a suspicious adult......... what would you have advised him to do?......... i would like to think that had he been on the phone with a parent that night rather than a girlfriend that the outcome of this might have been very different....if he was really a "child".... like you and many others including the prosecution, have described him as..... then a parent is exactly who he would have contacted, and been expected to contact, on the phone when worried about a suspicious adult following him....  if not the police...... 

He was a child because our laws say one is a child until they reach 18.

You see the irony of this is that if his parents had spanked him and left a mark on him Florida would have arrested them immediately and prosecuted them but they failed to make an arrest when he was shot and killed.

Like everyone else Aleshanee you have made TM the bad guy in this scenario because he did not run from GZ when he was doing nothing wrong.  If he looked suspicious enough to justify his murder walking through the neighborhood can you imagine how suspicious he would have looked running though the neighborhood with GZ running behind him waving a loaded and charged weapon in the air threatening to shoot him screaming "citizen's arrest... citizen's arrest".

As for my children I teach them to expect to be treated like everyone else.  I also teach them to defend themselves, their mother, sisters, and eventually their families.  I would assume this is okay if it is okay for GZ to use deadly force to defend his neighbors property from a threat that was no threat at all.

The bottom line is that GZ created this problem.  He is to blame for everything that developed as a result of it.

This is crazy....can't anyone see the double standard being applied here? --shaking my head--

 

[graceandtruth]

[quote author=graceandtruth]We are a resilient group.  This has been the historic norm and your reactions have been the historic norm from your side of the street.  Much like the homosexual groups when their sin is pointed they cry homophobia and hate, most of white america has consistently cried racism and ignorance when we point out systemic and individual racism.  God has seen us through slavery, Jim Crow, and when a name is given to this era He will have seen us through it as well.  Sadly, the majority church has ALWAYS reacted as you have reacted to this situation until history revealed the error of their position then they adamantly protested that they opposed inhuman treatment of other humans all along. 

We are also well aware that we will have to fix our cultural problems and we can expect no help or grace from most of white america because the cultural problems are an excellent excuse for treating us inhumanely.

"I have a dream...where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

Meanwhile certain others apparently want to keep making the issue skin color.

[quote author=graceandtruth]I have not been accused of being a racist outside of this forum either.  I have a white daughter-in-law, son-in-law, sister-in-law, and a very cute grandson that is bi-racial.  I am an IFB which is a group with almost no A-A representation unless you count little kids on a bus route inflating attendance numbers or chapels in A-A areas utilized to give would-be-preachers someone to practice on.  I usually don't bother with these types of conversations because this is normally the result.  I don't know why I am surprised.  I guess I expected different on a forum composed of people professing to be believers.[/quote]

"I'm not a racist but..."
[/quote]

I don't know where you are heading with your post rsc2a.  I do know that even Paul recognized his kinsmen according to the flesh. 

I am sure that TM was not judged by the content of his character because GZ was unaware of the content of his character when he killed him.

I am as racist as one is homophobic when they say that homosexuality is morally wrong.  Sad to see believers using the same line of reasoning they complain about from other groups.  No wonder they consider us to be hypocrites.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=graceandtruth]The bottom line is that GZ created this problem.  He is to blame for everything that developed as a result of it.[/quote]

Statements like this are asinine. You were responsible for the conception of your children. Anything they ever do wrong until their death is your responsibility. And your grandkids and great-grandkids and....

 

[graceandtruth]

[quote author=graceandtruth]The bottom line is that GZ created this problem.  He is to blame for everything that developed as a result of it.

Statements like this are asinine. You were responsible for the conception of your children. Anything they ever do wrong until their death is your responsibility. And your grandkids and great-grandkids and....
[/quote]

Come on rsc2a.  I don't speak that way to you and I would appreciate it if you don't speak that way to me.  GZ cause the altercation by approaching TM.  He has to bear responsibility for what occurs as a result of the contact that he initiates.

 

[Castor Muscular]

GZ cause the altercation by approaching TM. 

So if you approach me for any reason, I can attack you.  Got it.  Don't think the courts will buy it, but hopefully you'll testify in my defense. 

 

[graceandtruth]

GZ cause the altercation by approaching TM. 

So if you approach me for any reason, I can attack you.  Got it.  Don't think the courts will buy it, but hopefully you'll testify in my defense.

Unless you kill me then it won't matter what I said to anyone.  You win by default.  ???

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=graceandtruth]The bottom line is that GZ created this problem.  He is to blame for everything that developed as a result of it.

Statements like this are asinine. You were responsible for the conception of your children. Anything they ever do wrong until their death is your responsibility. And your grandkids and great-grandkids and....

Come on rsc2a.  I don't speak that way to you and I would appreciate it if you don't speak that way to me.  GZ cause the altercation by approaching TM.  He has to bear responsibility for what occurs as a result of the contact that he initiates.[/quote]

So you figure doubling down on dumb statements somehow makes them less dumb?

 

[graceandtruth]

Thanks for the conversation rsc2a.  We have reached an juncture at which neither of us wishes to budge or be respectful of the other.  So why don't we just break off the conversation as is the american way for this subject.  I am sure we will have ample opportunities to agree and disagree on other matters on which we both actually listen to each other.

 

[graceandtruth]

Thanks for the conversation Aleshanee.  I did not lump you in with anyone.  I am afraid that the dominate culture will have to come to grips with the fact that they way they handle situations is not the only correct way to handle situations.  TM did not actions were not stupid they were just different from your actions. 

I witnessed an accident today that clearly illustrates the american problem.  Two trucks collided at an intersection probably ruining both vehicles and possibly injuring the occupants.  The reason for the collision is that one was turning left and one was turning right at the same intersection and both thought the other should yield to them.  The collision could have been avoided at the intersection and in our society if both parties had stopped and examined how they were contributing to the possible collision and both parties would have been willing to yield to the other.  Since neither party was willing to yield a collision resulted.  Our cultural clashes will continue until both parties are willing to stop and examine how they contribute to the collisions and be willing to yield instead of demanding their rights. 

Perhaps we will have opportunity to interact on another subject under better terms in the future.

 

[4everfsu]

IF TM had beaten GZ to death, would he be tried as an adult or child?  If TM was hispanic and GZ white, would the press have called TM a black Hispanic?

 

[graceandtruth]

was he justified in what he did and said?..... no..... did that give me a right to do what i did?.... no....  was there a very good reason ..based on my own past experiences and issues with being sexually abused as a child.. that cause me TM to react that way?.....  yes there was......  but that didn;t make my actions right... justified.... or any less stupid.......  i didn;t even know what i was doing until i had been tackled by my coworker and the whole thing was over with.....

That is exactly what A-A deal with collectively and individually every day.  That is what prompts our response of fight instead of flight.

i know what it is like to be so tired and sick of abuse and injustice that it causes you to do stupid things in reaction to it..... and yeah i get really mad to this day about people who say i should have just stood there and ignored the guy.......

That is what prompts our response of fight instead of flight.  We are collectively and individually tired of running from those who seem to not be willing to stop chasing us.


You are mistaken when you say that we do not teach our children to avoid such situations.  We still have to teach our children to avoid certain neighborhoods and areas especially after dark.  We still have to teach them that even if a policeman stops you call me so I can come to where you are.  As you say though we are tired collectively and individually of being reminded of just how little public value our lives and the lives of our children have.

I don't think you are one of the bad guys.  I think you have just accepted some views and reactions as normal because they are part of the dominate culture. 

 

[graceandtruth]

IF TM had beaten GZ to death, would he be tried as an adult or child?  If TM was hispanic and GZ white, would the press have called TM a black Hispanic?

The answer to your first question is he would have been tried as an adult and there would have been no 45 day delay before arresting and charging TM.

White Hispanic is a census term.  The media did not make it up.  It is one of the choices for race on census forms.

 

[christundivided]

IF TM had beaten GZ to death, would he be tried as an adult or child?  If TM was hispanic and GZ white, would the press have called TM a black Hispanic?

The answer to your first question is he would have been tried as an adult and there would have been no 45 day delay before arresting and charging TM.

White Hispanic is a census term.  The media did not make it up.  It is one of the choices for race on census forms.

The media used the term "self proclaimed" white Hispanic. You want to spin that fact?

 

[christundivided]

That is what prompts our response of fight instead of flight.  We are collectively and individually tired of running from those who seem to not be willing to stop chasing us.

No one is chasing you. You pitiful poor little black man. You're so persecuted and reviled. I mean .... you can't even live life without having to teach your children to look for racism on every corner. I feel sorry for you. I really do. If not a little contempt for the stupid little imaginary world you've chosen to build around your family. Do you enjoy that powerful feeling you get when you want to "stick it to the man"????

 

[Castor Muscular]

The media used the "self proclaimed" white Hispanic. You want to spin hat fact?

Hispanics are white if they hurt or kill a black person.

Hispanics are a completely separate race if a white person doesn't want them to cross the border illegally. 

Hispanics are whatever race they need to be to make white people look bad. 

 

[graceandtruth]

That is what prompts our response of fight instead of flight.  We are collectively and individually tired of running from those who seem to not be willing to stop chasing us.

No one is chasing you. You pitiful poor little black man. You're so persecuted and reviled. I mean .... you can't even live life without having to teach your children to look for racism on every corner. I feel sorry for you. I really do. If not a little contempt for the stupid little imaginary world you've chosen to build around your family. Do you enjoy that powerful feeling you get when you want to "stick it to the man"????

LOL..LOL.... I see your are really upset now.  You have resorted to the christian practice of name calling and insulting.  LOL