Zimmerman case

[rsc2a]

[quote author=graceandtruth]Ransom you seem to be a reasonable guy.  I would think that you would understand that if you stalk a person and approach them that they would feel threatened and after producing that situation you would be less than honest to cry self-defense after you forced the other into a defensive position by your actions.

Initiating an attack (even if instigated) ≠ defensive position

(Of course, no one except GZ knows what actually happened, which is enough reason to find him not guilty.)

rsc2a I am disappointed that you reason that since the victim is dead and cannot tell his side of the story the killer must be innocent.  :'(

I didn't say anything either away about his innocence. I am specifically referring to how the verdict should go based on our rule of law.

Strange rule of "law".  I had a brother who had his head split open requiring stitches by a 17 year old.  When he defended himself with actions that did not even require medical attention for the 17 year old he was charged with a felony assault charge on a minor and ended up doing 18 months for it.  I might add he was immediately arrested.  I am confused as to how this strange rule of "law" works so differently for different people.[/quote]

The justice system (supposedly) failed your brother in this case. That doesn't give us the right to create injustice for others.

 

[christundivided]

How about this image.  A little worse than a scratch on the head.

Unarmed child is killed you have to convict.

Unarmed child???? Have you ever seen a white man almost beaten to death by black thugs?


Obviously you don't care. He doesn't remind of your sons.

Perhaps you are okay with a 17 year old boy laying face down dead in the grass because he doesn't remind you of your sons.
He is clearly alive so he came out better than TM and I am sure arrest were made immediately.  More smoke.

No I am not okay with it.

Then again, I am not okay with my "hypothetical boy" confronting someone following him. I assume from your comments that you are okay with it.

I am not okay with "my son" wanting to fight a "creepy ass cracker". I am not okay with "my son" do much of any Martin has every done.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]I've told you before that I wouldn't have pulled my gun and shot Martin. I base this on what little I know about the actual fight. However, I could not in good conscience, place my beliefs/abilities (or lack thereof) on another man... when I don't know the entire story. I didn't see it. I don't know if GZ was actually in fear of his life. I kinda of think he was and the evidence I've seen, leads me to believe he was.

Regardless of this.....

You simply support Martin because his is black. Plain an simple. I don't. You and your sons have nothing else in common with Martin. Nothing. The only thing you have in common with him is your race. That is the ONLY thing you have in common. Its the only reason you take the position you've taken. You don't want Zimmerman convicted because you're truly a Christian. You want him convicted because he killed a black man.

I heard OReilly say something the other night is entirely true... and it sums up the situation here.

If this had been a black on black killing (which happens all the time).... it would have never gotten on one front page, in any paper, news feed or website, anywhere.

I do honestly hate that Martin was killed. I know you probably don't believe it..... and nothing I could ever say would make you change your mind..... Then again...

Maybe if I told a lie and said Zimmerman should relieve the judgment of God for what he did.... maybe if I divorced my white wife and married a good black women and had a dozen kids that were all black. Maybe if I gave all my money to the NAACP, or personally lifted every black kid in a America out of poverty. I just might... just might get a black to believe I actually care about a black person because they are a fellow human being. Not because of the social pressures to see "racial in-equality" in every thing......

Probably not..... I'll never be a black man. I won't understand and I'll never true convince, you or any other black man, that I actually care.

You're right about one thing. God will settle it one of these days. What He says will matter. Not what either of us say.[/quote]

GaT - I rarely agree with CU on anything, but I do agree with him on about 95% of this....

 

[graceandtruth]

I heard OReilly say something the other night is entirely true... and it sums up the situation here.

If this had been a black on black killing (which happens all the time).... it would have never gotten on one front page, in any paper, news feed or website, anywhere.

Your quote of O'Rielly is absolutely correct because the other black person would have been immediately arrested and prosecuted mercilessly without any attempt to demonize TM.

I do honestly hate that Martin was killed. I know you probably don't believe it..... and nothing I could ever say would make you change your mind..... Then again...

Maybe if I told a lie and said Zimmerman should relieve the judgment of God for what he did.... maybe if I divorced my white wife and married a good black women and had a dozen kids that were all black. Maybe if I gave all my money to the NAACP, or personally lifted every black kid in a America out of poverty. I just might... just might get a black to believe I actually care about a black person because they are a fellow human being. Not because of the social pressures to see "racial in-equality" in every thing......

This statement is insulting and would have been better left unsaid.  None of the premises are true.  Now you have an opportunity to show that you really do care about A-A's as human beings by respectfully refraining from making such remarks now that you know that it is offensive.

Probably not..... I'll never be a black man. I won't understand and I'll never true convince, you or any other black man, that I actually care.

This statement is only true if you want it to be.  You can convince me you care by listening and then accepting as valid our experience because you realize you cannot share in the experience and therefore cannot see the experience as it is.  You may not understand your wife's experience as a woman in our society but I don't think you would declare her perception of her experience invalid or unfounded because you cannot share in  or understand her experience and perspective.  Give us the same courtesy.

 

[graceandtruth]

The justice system (supposedly) failed your brother in this case. That doesn't give us the right to create injustice for others.

This is not an isolated incident rsc2a.  This is consistently the case where both A-A's are immediately arrested and both are convicted and sent to jail.

So my question is, "When do we recognize that the system is infected with systemic racism and start acting to fix it instead of blaming the victims?".

 

[rsc2a]

The justice system (supposedly) failed your brother in this case. That doesn't give us the right to create injustice for others.

This is not an isolated incident rsc2a.  This is consistently the case where both A-A's are immediately arrested and both are convicted and sent to jail.

So my question is, "When do we recognize that the system is infected with systemic racism and start acting to fix it instead of blaming the victims?".

This may be true, but it still doesn't grant us the right to create injustice for others which is what you are apparently advocating for.

 

[graceandtruth]

The justice system (supposedly) failed your brother in this case. That doesn't give us the right to create injustice for others.

This is not an isolated incident rsc2a.  This is consistently the case where both A-A's are immediately arrested and both are convicted and sent to jail.

So my question is, "When do we recognize that the system is infected with systemic racism and start acting to fix it instead of blaming the victims?".

This may be true, but it still doesn't grant us the right to create injustice for others which is what you are apparently advocating for.

No sir.  I am advocating that those who take the law into their own hands face the consequences and that the system operate consistently across all people groups.

 

[rsc2a]

The justice system (supposedly) failed your brother in this case. That doesn't give us the right to create injustice for others.

This is not an isolated incident rsc2a.  This is consistently the case where both A-A's are immediately arrested and both are convicted and sent to jail.

So my question is, "When do we recognize that the system is infected with systemic racism and start acting to fix it instead of blaming the victims?".

This may be true, but it still doesn't grant us the right to create injustice for others which is what you are apparently advocating for.

No sir.  I am advocating that those who take the law into their own hands face the consequences and that the system operate consistently across all people groups.

Ignore principle of "innocent until proven guilty".                          - Check
Ignore burden of proof requiring "beyond a reasonable doubt".  - Check
Advocate for "grand jury by mob" principle.                                  - Check

How are you not advocating for an unjust outcome for purely racial reasons?

 

[graceandtruth]

The justice system (supposedly) failed your brother in this case. That doesn't give us the right to create injustice for others.

This is not an isolated incident rsc2a.  This is consistently the case where both A-A's are immediately arrested and both are convicted and sent to jail.

So my question is, "When do we recognize that the system is infected with systemic racism and start acting to fix it instead of blaming the victims?".

This may be true, but it still doesn't grant us the right to create injustice for others which is what you are apparently advocating for.

No sir.  I am advocating that those who take the law into their own hands face the consequences and that the system operate consistently across all people groups.

Ignore principle of "innocent until proven guilty".                          - Check
Ignore burden of proof requiring "beyond a reasonable doubt".  - Check
Advocate for "grand jury by mob" principle.                                  - Check

How are you not advocating for an unjust outcome for purely racial reasons?

Interesting........When an A-A defends another A-A it is for racial reasons but when a E-A defends a E-A it is an appeal to justice and rule of "law.........Interesting. 

No problem rsc2a.  You have stopped listening so I will stop talking.  I don't believe you are intending to but you are illustrating what it means to listen to someone else's experience and dismiss it because you are unable to enter into the same experience so you are therefore unable to perceive what they perceive. 

Rest assured rsc2a there is a great chance that the system will do what the system has been designed to do since it's inception in the 1700's.  I would be surprised if any system failed to function as it has been designed to function as long as the majority of people are satisfied with it functioning accordingly.

 

[Castor Muscular]

If I was armed and doing a neighborhood watch thing, and the guy I was following attacked me, pinned me to the ground, and started beating my head in, I would fear that I might get knocked out (let alone killed).  I would call out for help, but if there was no immediate response, I'd pull out my gun and shoot him.  I would try not to shoot him in the heart, but honestly, if I was in a panic, I probably wouldn't be able to have the presence of mind to aim.  I'd just shoot. 

 

[Ransom]

Ransom you seem to be a reasonable guy.  I would think that you would understand that if you stalk a person

And you seem to be not so reasonable.  "Followed" is not "stalked."

It is very difficult to take you seriously. You seem to want to exaggerate the known facts way out of proportion, and to discard any facts that don't square with your "the white man is out to kill black people" worldview. You have all the earnestness of someone like Alex Jones. You unfortunately also have about the same credibility.

 

[Castor Muscular]

You have all the earnestness of someone like Alex Jones. You unfortunately also have about the same credibility.

Alex Jones is my hero.  If it weren't for Alex Jones I wouldn't know it was the government-controlled nanites from Mars that turned my dog into a Whirlpool refrigerator.  You might think I made out well in the deal, but it's still in the shape of a dog.  Hard to store anything. 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=graceandtruth]Interesting........When an A-A defends another A-A it is for racial reasons but when a E-A defends a E-A it is an appeal to justice and rule of "law.........Interesting.  [/quote]

I haven't made an argument about race either way. I've made an argument about how the judicial system in America determines guilt or innocence. I've also readily acknowledged that we have no way of knowing whether or not TM or GZ was the instigator. Yet, in our judicial system, tie goes to the defendant (in criminal trials).

All of your arguments, on the other hand, have been racial....

[quote author=graceandtruth]No problem rsc2a.  You have stopped listening so I will stop talking.  I don't believe you are intending to but you are illustrating what it means to listen to someone else's experience and dismiss it because you are unable to enter into the same experience so you are therefore unable to perceive what they perceive. [/quote]

I haven't stopped listening. I haven't seen anything that would change the "beyond a reasonable doubt" requirement to disprove GZ's pre-supposed innocence.

However, you haven't even started to listen to the other side. Your mind was made up as soon as the case was about violence between a black guy and someone other than another black guy. And when people call you on this obvious racism on your part, you point fingers back at them for not being black themselves exactly as CU described earlier.

[quote author=graceandtruth]Rest assured rsc2a there is a great chance that the system will do what the system has been designed to do since it's inception in the 1700's.  I would be surprised if any system failed to function as it has been designed to function as long as the majority of people are satisfied with it functioning accordingly.[/quote]

Yes...and thankfully it has done exactly what "it was designed to do" (seen through your skewed perspective). After all, we've managed to go this long without even electing a black Presid......

....oh....

 

[FSSL]

If I was armed and doing a neighborhood watch thing, and the guy I was following attacked me, pinned me to the ground, and started beating my head in, I would fear that I might get knocked out (let alone killed).  I would call out for help, but if there was no immediate response, I'd pull out my gun and shoot him.  I would try not to shoot him in the heart, but honestly, if I was in a panic, I probably wouldn't be able to have the presence of mind to aim.  I'd just shoot.

My family was chased through a Walmart parking lot at 10:30 pm by two young black teenagers. Had I been carrying at that moment, I would have drawn on them until we got safely in our truck. The good thing is that a person in the parking lot just so happened to have two German shepherds and jumped out with them. The kids ran off.

There is a real racial problem in certain areas of our nation. The idea that Travon Martin was the innocent party, when it took a gun shot to stop his attacking of GZ, is preposterous.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Yes...and thankfully it has done exactly what "it was designed to do" (seen through your skewed perspective). After all, we've managed to go this long without even electing a black Presid......

....oh....

Obama has done the most to aggravate race relations since LBJ said, "I'll have those n***ers voting Democrat for the next 200 years."  Oddly enough, he was right.  Apparently what he did, worked.

 

[graceandtruth]

You guys are all correct.  Naturally the black guy has no idea what he is talking about and since his view does not line up with the majority view it has to be skewed. 

It is clear that things will continue as they have as long as the majority of people are satisfied with the skewed out come of the judicial system.

I do apologize for that fact that I do not have the liberty or desire to ignore my ethnic heritage. 

So someone tell me why the "christian" outcry was not innocent until proven guilty for the OJ trial?  It seems the consensus is that the A-A is guilty whether he is the victim or the accused.

 

[graceandtruth]

If I was armed and doing a neighborhood watch thing, and the guy I was following attacked me, pinned me to the ground, and started beating my head in, I would fear that I might get knocked out (let alone killed).  I would call out for help, but if there was no immediate response, I'd pull out my gun and shoot him.  I would try not to shoot him in the heart, but honestly, if I was in a panic, I probably wouldn't be able to have the presence of mind to aim.  I'd just shoot.

My family was chased through a Walmart parking lot at 10:30 pm by two young black teenagers. Had I been carrying at that moment, I would have drawn on them until we got safely in our truck. The good thing is that a person in the parking lot just so happened to have two German shepherds and jumped out with them. The kids ran off.

There is a real racial problem in certain areas of our nation. The idea that Travon Martin was the innocent party, when it took a gun shot to stop his attacking of GZ, is preposterous.

Are you sure they weren't just following your family like GZ was following TM?  Come on FSSL you have got to realize that these two incidents have nothing in common. --shaking my head--

 

[Castor Muscular]

Don't worry, GaT.  If Zimmerman gets acquitted, the Obama administration will file federal charges against him for violating Trayvon's civil rights.  They'll get him one way or another.  This is a nation of men, not laws.

No, I'm not kidding. 

 

[graceandtruth]

Don't worry, GaT.  If Zimmerman gets acquitted, the Obama administration will file federal charges against him for violating Trayvon's civil rights.  They'll get him one way or another.  This is a nation of men, not laws.

No, I'm not kidding.

I don't think so Castor.  Perhaps President Obama will side with his mom's relatives on this one.

 

[pastorryanhayden]

Look Graceandtruth,
I am a white guy from yuppy New Hampshire.  I have a black uncle.  I dated a black girl in High School.  Racism was something I read about but did not experience.
I went to college in Knoxville, TN.  I worked in the inner city there.  I saw stuff that made me weep every day.  I still see things that remind me of those days and cry.  I would love to do something about it.
I've been targeted as a yankee.  I've had kids pee in my coffee and call me carpetbagger, and joke about killing yankees.  I know it's not fun to be on the wrong end of prejudice.
As much as I'd love to do something about the plight of the black man, as much as I hate that black america is where black america is, I loathe even more the accusation that because I am a european american, that I am somehow responsible.  Many of my ancestors didn't come here from scotland until 75 years after the emancipation proclamation.
From an outsiders perspective, it looks like Zimmerman was an overly zealous neighborhood nanny who was forced to protect himself against an angry and violent teenager.  I'm sorry, I'm not buying the child bit.  I've been around enough 17 year olds to know that in the violence and self-defense department, they can be every bit as much a threat as a 37 year old.
To me it looks like the Black community saw an opportunity to fan the flames of racial tension and the blew on it for all it is worth, willfully ignoring the parts of Zimmerman's past and character that make him an unlikely racist bully, and purposely downplaying his hispanic descent.
In my opinion, national cases like this do nothing to help african americans.  They enable generations of AA youth to take a victim mentality, and sacrifice the proactivity which is in many cases the only thing that is going to improve their lot. 
That's not paternalism, it's the truth.