You Can't Build a Church on Kids

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=christundivided]
Paul didn't run a VBS program or a AWANA club. You're taking Paul's statements to an extreme.

Yes, Paul rejoice even when someone caused strife at his own expense. BUT HE, HIMSELF, did not use such methods.

You should realize rejoicing about anything that results to the "Glory of God" is different that taking an "anything is good as along as it works" approach.

I don't personally care how a person presents the Gospel. I am glad that it gets presented, but don't pretend their is biblical precedent for what is going on today. Nor should you choose to to change you approach because you've seen the supposed "success" associated with a certain "program".
[/quote]


I actually agree with you that pragmatism or "success" isn't to be the philosophical/theological arbiter of our methods, but methods can be amoral, and unless you can demonstrate Biblically why something is not normative, or you're a reformed/regulative principle hard-core sort, I don't see what the objection is to meeting people where they are in "the marketplace".

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]
Paul didn't run a VBS program or a AWANA club. You're taking Paul's statements to an extreme.

Yes, Paul rejoice even when someone caused strife at his own expense. BUT HE, HIMSELF, did not use such methods.

You should realize rejoicing about anything that results to the "Glory of God" is different that taking an "anything is good as along as it works" approach.

I don't personally care how a person presents the Gospel. I am glad that it gets presented, but don't pretend their is biblical precedent for what is going on today. Nor should you choose to to change you approach because you've seen the supposed "success" associated with a certain "program".

I actually agree with you that pragmatism or "success" isn't to be the philosophical/theological arbiter of our methods, but methods can be amoral, and unless you can demonstrate Biblically why something is not normative, or you're a reformed/regulative principle hard-core sort, I don't see what the objection is to meeting people where they are in "the marketplace".
[/quote]

Meeting in a marketplace isn't the same as setting up the marketplace to draw attendance.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]It certainly more than coach little league, serve on the steering Cmtee for United Way and serve beans once a month at community kitchen......
[/quote]

You seemed to miss the emphasis in my post:

By being good/compassionate/loving neighbors, employees, PTA members, baseball coaches, community leaders...



I bolded it for you. That "..."; it means the thought continues. In other words, you should strive to be good/compassionate/loving in every sphere of your life and, thereby, be an example of Christ to them.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=christundivided]
Meeting in a marketplace isn't the same as setting up the marketplace to draw attendance.
[/quote]

I can chase to the end real quick and say "let each be fully persuaded in his own mind", and be done, but in the interim of the discussion I'd say that your assertion of "setting up the marketplace" is fallacious.  We do very little differently for VBS within our "marketplace" than we do for children's ministries in Sunday School on a weekly basis.

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]
Meeting in a marketplace isn't the same as setting up the marketplace to draw attendance.

I can chase to the end real quick and say "let each be fully persuaded in his own mind", and be done, but in the interim of the discussion I'd say that your assertion of "setting up the marketplace" is fallacious.  We do very little differently for VBS within our "marketplace" than we do for children's ministries in Sunday School on a weekly basis.
[/quote]

Whatever you say....

Successful SS programs are often ageless. I've learned more in adult SS classes than I ever learned as child reading/studying a quarterly. Often such "classes" are nothing more than fulfilling some person's desire to "teach" someone else. We expect too much spiritual knowledge from our children. They are better off learned that mom and dad are good, morally, ethical people who want to know God. Those that attribute their success to God's blessings. There's plenty of time to learn of God when you have the capacity to learn and understand. Too often SS only services the purpose of making the "teacher" feel better about their "service for God."

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=christundivided]

Whatever you say....

Successful SS programs are often ageless. I've learned more in adult SS classes than I ever learned as child reading/studying a quarterly. Often such "classes" are nothing more than fulfilling some person's desire to "teach" someone else. We expect too much spiritual knowledge from our children. They are better off learned that mom and dad are good, morally, ethical people who want to know God. Those that attribute their success to God's blessings. There's plenty of time to learn of God when you have the capacity to learn and understand. Too often SS only services the purpose of making the "teacher" feel better about their "service for God."
[/quote]


Well, if it's whatever I say, then I say you have some strange concepts runnin' round up there in the noggin', and if I were to put on my Sigmund Frood hat I'd say that you're "projecting".

 

[christundivided]

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm

According to this survey, 85% of American believers became christians between the ages of 4 and 14.  Between the ages of 15 and 30, only 10%.  And over 30, only 4%. 

I've been in our church for 14 years, long enough to watch the elementary age and pre-teens grow up, go on to college, and enter the workforce.  The vast majority of them are still involved in their respective churches. 

Church ministries focused on children, the younger the better, is a valuable investment in the kingdom.

And many of the parents were/are involved in their kids' groups, either as leaders, assistants, etc.

They learn how to become a "chip off the old block". Not necessarily how to be a successful Christian. Too many times children are pushed in service before they have ever meet Christ or even begun to understand His voice. I love it when anyone makes a profession of faith but I'm also smart enough to know that most who do..... don't really have any idea what they are accepting. "belief" is more than just accepting something without understand anything about it.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

All such programs are nothing more than the carnal mind trying to find acceptance in presenting the Gospel.

Paul became all things to all people in order that he might win some, and he rejoiced wherever the gospel was preached (even by those attempting to stir up strife), so what is THE acceptable manner of presenting the gospel according to christunited?

It certainly more than coach little league, serve on the steering Cmtee for United Way and serve beans once a month at community kitchen......

Then by all means become a freebird to win a freebird?

That's what I thought!!!!!!

It only works right if you thought of the program yourself or have a friend that has found "success"....

I no understand what u mean....me slow!
Expand your thought, please!

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]

Whatever you say....

Successful SS programs are often ageless. I've learned more in adult SS classes than I ever learned as child reading/studying a quarterly. Often such "classes" are nothing more than fulfilling some person's desire to "teach" someone else. We expect too much spiritual knowledge from our children. They are better off learned that mom and dad are good, morally, ethical people who want to know God. Those that attribute their success to God's blessings. There's plenty of time to learn of God when you have the capacity to learn and understand. Too often SS only services the purpose of making the "teacher" feel better about their "service for God."

Well, if it's whatever I say, then I say you have some strange concepts runnin' round up there in the noggin', and if I were to put on my Sigmund Frood hat I'd say that you're "projecting".
[/quote]

LOL....I know that made you "feel"..... Good about yourself....

 

[FSSL]

By being good/compassionate/loving neighbors, employees, PTA members, baseball coaches, community leaders...

Too bad this thread has devolved into a "circling the wagons" for kid's programs. What we are witnessing is the fact that many have not even given much thought into reaching parents and families as a whole.

The ministry of Paul, Timothy and others was not to grow churches through kids programs. They went out to meet adults.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

By being good/compassionate/loving neighbors, employees, PTA members, baseball coaches, community leaders...

Too bad this thread has devolved into a "circling the wagons" for kid's programs. What we are witnessing is the fact that many have not even given much thought into reaching parents and families as a whole.

The ministry of Paul, Timothy and others was not to grow churches through kids programs. They went out to meet adults.

Too bad you have thrown the baby out with the bath water.
You seem to assume churches have Children and youth programs while ignoring adults.
When adults attend church services.....they bring their children with them!
What's your idea ofa children's program.....duct tape them to the wall while discipline their parents?

 

[christundivided]

By being good/compassionate/loving neighbors, employees, PTA members, baseball coaches, community leaders...

Too bad this thread has devolved into a "circling the wagons" for kid's programs. What we are witnessing is the fact that many have not even given much thought into reaching parents and families as a whole.

The ministry of Paul, Timothy and others was not to grow churches through kids programs. They went out to meet adults.

Too bad you have thrown the baby out with the bath water.
You seem to assume churches have Children and youth programs while ignoring adults.
When adults attend church services.....they bring their children with them!
What's your idea ofa children's program.....duct tape them to the wall while discipline their parents?

That was a little uncalled for TB.... FSSL must have hit you where you live.

I do agree in general with what FSSL said. I do think the focus on adults has overshadowed with "kids" programs. You have to admit that most programs have become "baby sitters". Personally, I would never trust a SS teacher to teach my children about God. Its not their responsibility before God. Its mine. Its every parents. That doesn't mean that they don't attend SS. I take SS for what its worth. I don't work it up to be something its not.

TB, I know you know that SS teachers do not have a calling from God to teach the children of responsible adults. Also, SS teachers don't have a calling to evangelize all the children that come to SS.

Is the calling of God important to you? I know it means something.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=christundivided]
That was a little uncalled for TB.... FSSL must have hit you where you live.

I do agree in general with what FSSL said. I do think the focus on adults has overshadowed with "kids" programs. You have to admit that most programs have become "baby sitters". Personally, I would never trust a SS teacher to teach my children about God. Its not their responsibility before God. Its mine. Its every parents. That doesn't mean that they don't attend SS. I take SS for what its worth. I don't work it up to be something its not.

TB, I know you know that SS teachers do not have a calling from God to teach the children of responsible adults. Also, SS teachers don't have a calling to evangelize all the children that come to SS.

Is the calling of God important to you? I know it means something.
[/quote]

I had forgotten how much your posting talents provided penultimate comic relief.

Please, tell us how you know that God doesn't call people within the assembly to be teachers, despite God saying that His church explicitly would have such?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

By being good/compassionate/loving neighbors, employees, PTA members, baseball coaches, community leaders...

Too bad this thread has devolved into a "circling the wagons" for kid's programs. What we are witnessing is the fact that many have not even given much thought into reaching parents and families as a whole.

The ministry of Paul, Timothy and others was not to grow churches through kids programs. They went out to meet adults.

Too bad you have thrown the baby out with the bath water.
You seem to assume churches have Children and youth programs while ignoring adults.
When adults attend church services.....they bring their children with them!
What's your idea ofa children's program.....duct tape them to the wall while discipline their parents?

That was a little uncalled for TB.... FSSL must have hit you where you live.

I do agree in general with what FSSL said. I do think the focus on adults has overshadowed with "kids" programs. You have to admit that most programs have become "baby sitters". Personally, I would never trust a SS teacher to teach my children about God. Its not their responsibility before God. Its mine. Its every parents. That doesn't mean that they don't attend SS. I take SS for what its worth. I don't work it up to be something its not.

TB, I know you know that SS teachers do not have a calling from God to teach the children of responsible adults. Also, SS teachers don't have a calling to evangelize all the children that come to SS.

Is the calling of God important to you? I know it means something.

Uncalled for?
Please.....I didn't personally insult FSSL....and the duct tape was an attest at humor....

I know that you don't know what Gods calling is for anyone but you.
I also know that you know most people come to Christ as children and teens.....many thru the influence of children and youth leaders.
Do you feel that the people who work our food ministry are called to that endeavor?
Do you feel the volunteers at the homeless shelter are called to that endeavor?
Do you feel that ushers are called?
Nursery volunteers?
Seminary professors?
Christian School teachers?

 

[FSSL]

I am still waiting for ideas on how to reach parents and entire family units. We are now, nearly 60 posts in!

 

[rsc2a]

I am still waiting for ideas on how to reach parents and entire family units. We are now, nearly 60 posts in!

By being good/compassionate/loving neighbors, employees, PTA members, baseball coaches, community leaders...

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]
That was a little uncalled for TB.... FSSL must have hit you where you live.

I do agree in general with what FSSL said. I do think the focus on adults has overshadowed with "kids" programs. You have to admit that most programs have become "baby sitters". Personally, I would never trust a SS teacher to teach my children about God. Its not their responsibility before God. Its mine. Its every parents. That doesn't mean that they don't attend SS. I take SS for what its worth. I don't work it up to be something its not.

TB, I know you know that SS teachers do not have a calling from God to teach the children of responsible adults. Also, SS teachers don't have a calling to evangelize all the children that come to SS.

Is the calling of God important to you? I know it means something.

I had forgotten how much your posting talents provided penultimate comic relief.

Please, tell us how you know that God doesn't call people within the assembly to be teachers, despite God saying that His church explicitly would have such?
[/quote]

I get it...

God's divine promise of "teachers" is prophetically fulfilled in your average Sunday School teacher.... I got you.

How do you discern the calling of a SS teacher? Or you do you even care to discern such?

In my experience.... It usually goes to anyone that voluntaries.

Does volunteer = calling.

 

[christundivided]

Uncalled for?
Please.....I didn't personally insult FSSL....and the duct tape was an attest at humor....

Okay.

I know that you don't know what Gods calling is for anyone but you.

I can read the Scriptures and discern just a good as you can. If you can't recognize the divine calling of God on someone..... then why the world are you a pastor?

I also know that you know most people come to Christ as children and teens.....many thru the influence of children and youth leaders.

Silly. People come to Christ because of the intrinsic power of the Gospel.

I will say that many young people make false commitments to "youth leaders". What's more important to you. A false confession or allowing the power the Gospel to change people apart from your "program"?

Do you feel that the people who work our food ministry are called to that endeavor?

Nope. Do you?

Do you feel the volunteers at the homeless shelter are called to that endeavor?

Nope, do you? Mind referencing a verse?

Do you feel that ushers are called?

Nope. Volunteers are fine. Nothing at stack in "ushering".

Nursery volunteers?

Pay attention to that last word.

Seminary professors?

Some may have the gift of teacher. To be called to a certain seminary.... Don't know. Maybe. Maybe not.

Christian School teachers?

Are you saying that a Christian School teacher has a specific function in the Body of Christ? Care to tell us what part of the body that is?

 

[christundivided]

I am still waiting for ideas on how to reach parents and entire family units. We are now, nearly 60 posts in!

Rom 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

I know you've broken down Romans 1:16 before. The "power of God" can easily be translated "work of God"

 

[HeDied4U]

It's true, you can't build a church on kids, but you can build the city on rock-n-roll

We Built This City




We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.



( sorry, couldn't resist )

Good thread, by the way. Just read thru the whole thing.