Stuff Fundies Like is right on this one (and I hate to admit it)

[FSSL]

Perhaps this is a good place to consult the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains

In other words, all of the words used in the NT for wine/grape/beer/intoxicating beverages.

Oinos - wine, a fermented beverage cf. Eph 5:18
Oinos Neos - new wine, newly pressed grape juice cf. Mk 2:22
Gleukos - new sweet wine in the process of fermentation cf. Ac 2:13
Oikera - an intoxicating drink made from grain 'beer' Lk 1:15
Oxos - a cheap, sour wine a favorite beverage of poorer people cf. Mt 27:48
Elaion - oil extracted from the fruit of olive trees used medicinally or burning lamps cf. Lk 10:34

In other words, trying to suggest that "wine" is not fermented goes against the meaning and usages of the authors of Scripture.

 

[pastorryanhayden]

Just to clarify my reasoning behind the op, I'm a teetotaler, I think their are many verses of scripture that strongly warn against alcohol consumption and that in the modern day American context, there really is no good reason to mess around with something the Bible is overwhelmingly negative about.
My problem with the sermon was that the speaker took liberties with a text and  his manner of preaching had the whole group swallowing what he said whole.
While I have preached that drinking alcohol is dangerous and pointless and I have defended our church's leadership policies prohibiting alcohol consumption.  I would not say with any kind of emphasis or authority that alcohol consumption is always a sin. 
Also, I recognize that many preachers of the past (Whitfield, Spurgeon, Machen) etc.  were not teetotalers and any teaching in that direction should be done cautiously.

 

[Frag]

Perhaps this is a good place to consult the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains

In other words, all of the words used in the NT for wine/grape/beer/intoxicating beverages.

Oinos - wine, a fermented beverage cf. Eph 5:18
Oinos Neos - new wine, newly pressed grape juice cf. Mk 2:22
Gleukos - new sweet wine in the process of fermentation cf. Ac 2:13
Oikera - an intoxicating drink made from grain 'beer' Lk 1:15
Oxos - a cheap, sour wine a favorite beverage of poorer people cf. Mt 27:48
Elaion - oil extracted from the fruit of olive trees used medicinally or burning lamps cf. Lk 10:34

In other words, trying to suggest that "wine" is not fermented goes against the meaning and usages of the authors of Scripture.

So Jesus made a new batch of old wine.

Got it. 

 

[FSSL]

So Jesus made a new batch of old wine. Got it.

Correction... a new batch of prime fermented wine which further attests to the miraculous nature of the event.
Let the Bible do your thinking for you, not American culture.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Speaking of new wine... I predict a new version of the Bible will change this:

"Nor do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined."

To this:

"Nor do they put new wine into wineskins, because fermentation releases carbon dioxide, which causes the wineskin to expand, and when it is released, it causes global warming."

 

[Frag]

So Jesus made a new batch of old wine. Got it.

Correction... a new batch of prime fermented wine which further attests to the miraculous nature of the event.
Let the Bible do your thinking for you, not American culture.

Wow.  Well, I am sure you will have an opportunity in the future to talk to Him personally about your opinion.  Let the judgement seat guide your thinking, not the sinful culture.

 

[FSSL]

Wow.  Well, I am sure you will have an opportunity in the future to talk to Him personally about your opinion.  Let the judgement seat guide your thinking, not the sinful culture.

He chose the wording. I just read it.

Since you think you know what the word "wine" means, perhaps you could point us to a Greek lexicon that proves your point.

Keep in mind... misreading and misapplying the Bible is worse than being drunk. One has eternal consequences, the other just gives you a headache in the morning.

 

[Ransom]

Alternatively, one could say it is intellectually consistent to do so,

One could, but one would be wrong.

 

[Ransom]

I would take the time to school all you idiots who claim Jesus produced alcohol....

...but I learned a long time ago not to argue with a drunk.

Whatever. Aren't you missing a Konclave or something?

 

[Frag]

Wow.  Well, I am sure you will have an opportunity in the future to talk to Him personally about your opinion.  Let the judgement seat guide your thinking, not the sinful culture.

He chose the wording. I just read it.

Since you think you know what the word "wine" means, perhaps you could point us to a Greek lexicon that proves your point.

Keep in mind... misreading and misapplying the Bible is worse than being drunk. One has eternal consequences, the other just gives you a headache in the morning.

Preaching teen camp this week.  Will preach four more in the next five weeks.  Preaching 33 times in this first three week stint (including preaching at my own church each weekend).  Some have nothing better to do than sip wine while defending their right to do so on a forum.  Again -- every idle word.  You'll get to look Christ in the eye and explain to him why you spent time accusing Him of producing and distributing alcohol. 

I do now understand why you encourage drinking.  It would take a blurred mental state to accept your logic or your interpretation of the passage. 

 

[Timothy]

Wow.  Well, I am sure you will have an opportunity in the future to talk to Him personally about your opinion.  Let the judgement seat guide your thinking, not the sinful culture.

He chose the wording. I just read it.

Since you think you know what the word "wine" means, perhaps you could point us to a Greek lexicon that proves your point.

Keep in mind... misreading and misapplying the Bible is worse than being drunk. One has eternal consequences, the other just gives you a headache in the morning.

Preaching teen camp this week.  Will preach four more in the next five weeks.  Preaching 33 times in this first three week stint (including preaching at my own church each weekend).  Some have nothing better to do than sip wine while defending their right to do so on a forum.  Again -- every idle word.  You'll get to look Christ in the eye and explain to him why you spent time accusing Him of producing and distributing alcohol. 

I do now understand why you encourage drinking.  It would take a blurred mental state to accept your logic or your interpretation of the passage.

Explain what? If anyone knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them. They don't see alcohol (at least wine) as evil ... and this is with (what I observe) study of scriptures ... and I assume no spirit convicting them. You dear Frag probably should stay away from wine (since you see it as good to stay away) - for you to drink wine probably is sin. But, for many it isn't sin.

 

[Ransom]

When "grape juice" is mentioned in ancient cultures, it is a reference to freshly squeezed grapes. Some ancient scholars believe that grape juice is referenced in the old testament but it never confused with "wine"... which is fermented.

In fact, in the rules for Nazirites, Num. 6:3 makes a distinction between many grape products, including vinegar, wine, and grape juice: "He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried."

The biblical authors, if they wanted to commend grape juice and condemn wine, had the means to do so clearly and unambiguously. They didn't use them.

 

[Ransom]

I'm curious. Do you know how cheese or kraut is made?

Or, for that matter, bread, vinegar, tea, yogurt, and any number of other common harmless foods.

Frag is your typical fundy blowhard, so of course his claimed authority on food science is inversely proportional to his actual knowledge of the subject.

Fermentation is a controlled chemical reaction that converts complex organic molecules into simpler ones (e.g. converting sugar to alcohol and carbon dioxide).

Rot, on the other hand, is simply uncontrolled decomposition.

 

[rsc2a]

Just to clarify my reasoning behind the op, I'm a teetotaler, I think their are many verses of scripture that strongly warn against alcohol consumption and that in the modern day American context, there really is no good reason to mess around with something the Bible is overwhelmingly negative about.

The exact opposite in fact...

[quote author=pastorryanhayden]While I have preached that drinking alcohol is dangerous and pointless and I have defended our church's leadership policies prohibiting alcohol consumption.[/quote]

Do you, likewise, preach that having sex or eating a burger is dangerous and pointless?

[quote author=pastorryanhayden]Also, I recognize that many preachers of the past (Whitfield, Spurgeon, Machen) etc.  were not teetotalers and any teaching in that direction should be done cautiously.[/quote]

It's actually the entirety of Christianity for most of history.

 

[ALAYMAN]

The hardest thing for fundies is to understand and accept what they read in the Bible.

The hardest thing often for former fundys to understand and accept is that there are numerous non-fundys who read their Bible and come to a similar conclusion to the fundys, in direct contradiction to the freebirds.

 

[ALAYMAN]

The hardest thing for fundies in sheeps clothing is to understand and accept that the Bible can only mean one thing and is not dependent on the conclusions of others. The authority of interpretation lies in the authority of the words actually used.

And of course the hubris inherent in this condemnation is "when an interpretation is contrary to mine then it is wrong, and I will call the wrongly opinionated individual a fundy in order to marginalize them".

 

[myeyesareopen]

Preaching teen camp this week.  Will preach four more in the next five weeks.  Preaching 33 times in this first three week stint (including preaching at my own church each weekend).  Some have nothing better to do than sip wine while defending their right to do so on a forum.  Again -- every idle word.  You'll get to look Christ in the eye and explain to him why you spent time accusing Him of producing and distributing alcohol. 

I do now understand why you encourage drinking.  It would take a blurred mental state to accept your logic or your interpretation of the passage.

And there you have it! Your reward! You got to brag to all who read this forum about what a great servant of God you are, all the while assuming you are the only one, and you got to say "Raca" to fellow believers! You're on a roll! I'm sure our Saviour is especially proud of you.

 

[FreeToBeMe]

The authority of interpretation lies in the authority of the words actually used.

You mean ALAYMAN and Frag don't have authority of interpretation?   

Break it to them gently, please....

 

[FreeToBeMe]

Preaching teen camp this week.  Will preach four more in the next five weeks.  Preaching 33 times in this first three week stint (including preaching at my own church each weekend). 

Jesus must sure be proud of you....and it's quite obvious you're proud of yourself, too.

 

[T-Bone]

This peculiar view of wine by those in the fundy camp has more to do with prohibition than any honest examination of the biblical text or the historical belief or understanding of the true church throughout history...that being said, that's what makes them fundy's, they're here to correct even the Scripture with the KJV (oops, now I have reopened another can of worms...bad me!)