Stuff Fundies Like is right on this one (and I hate to admit it)

16KJV11 said:
When I started drinking, I thought, I'll just have one so I wouldn't look like the only prude in a crowd.
Several fights, car accidents, binges and years later, the only thing that caused me to quit was Jesus.

Yeah, alcohol led to my former girlfriend's death.  She was drinking at a bar.  I was having club soda.  When it came time to leave, she insisted she could drive us home.  I said I should drive, since she had quite a few drinks and I didn't have anything.  She grabbed the keys from me.  So I shot her. 

(stolen from Steve Martin)

 
christundivided said:
Don't pretend you feel any different toward those you disagree with concerning the issue. Yes, it is dishonest to contrive such a silly position and then claim you are informed on the matter. You have done little to participate in this conversation. You have basically objected and then hid while others try to present a valid argument for you.

Ah, now you can see my heart, eh? Get my CD's, dude. I preached a series of six messages about this three years ago. In that series I repeatedly said that I believe the Bible teaches it is wrong to drink alcoholic beverages but that I can understand why some of my Christian brethren disagree with me. I said we ought to treat such people with grace and charity for there is a fair amount of ambiguity in the text about the issue. But that's ok...you know my heart is full of hatred and bitterness and that I deem such people to be dishonest and ungodly...because you can see it apparently.

Oh yeah, you also know I haven't done any study, and that I'm not informed on the matter. After all, clearly if someone had studied they would have arrived at your position...

There is one word that comes to my mind for a post such as yours above - atrocious.
 
FreeToBeMe said:
Let me re-word your response to show how some of us see the "fundy" reaction to our view on alcohol:

Let me get this straight, and it is important b/c I have seen it repeatedly on this thread. If I study my Bible and arrive at a different conclusion than you about the alcohol issue then I'm a drunkard.

Agreed. It isn't any more helpful or accurate or fair to refer to those who disagree as drunkards then it is to refer to us as dishonest.
 
christundivided said:
Its obvious you don't understand the affects of alcohol.

It is obvious you are still an idiot who can't understand simple declarative sentences.

By your math, it would have taken 4 to 5 glasses of wine to equal 1 glass of today's wine.

Yes. Good for you! 2nd grade math didn't zoom right over your head for a change. A glass of the mixed wine served at the marriage feast would have contained between 1% and 3% alcohol. You would have to drink 25 glasses in quick succession to raise your blood alcohol level to .08 - .10.

I'd say a "teetotaler" like yourself would get pretty tipsy on one good glass of wine.
I'd say an idiot like you is so stupid he is already incoherent without having anything at all to drink.
Its not unreasonable to think that the wedding guests wouldn't have drank more than 4 or 5 glasses. In fact, THEY RAN OUT. Obviously they didn't plan for them to be drinking SO MUCH wine.
Yeah. You finally figured it out. They had more guests than they had wine to serve. So Jesus made more. But I can't see anywhere in the narrative that anyone drank over 25 glasses of the stuff.
 
However much wine people drank at a normal festive occasion must have included enough alcohol to dull the senses, otherwise they wouldn't have developed the custom of serving the best first, and the lesser wines later. 

 
ALAYMAN said:
admin said:
Ha! Just give us the lexical information that proves your opinion, then you can say I was wrong for quoting Louw-Nida.

Until then, I will hide my overly zealous hubris behind their work.

8)

The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary
"It is important to note that the Hebrew word tirosh, "grape juice, unfermented wine," appearing 38 times in the Old Testament (Harris, "tirosh," Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, 2:969), is almost exclusively translated by oinos (36 times). In other words, oinos can and does refer to either unfermented or fermented wine in the Septuagint."

"In the New Testament oinos is used 33 times. Concerning the Parable of the Wineskins, the juice would be acted on by yeast from the old wineskins and would begin to foam. Such gases could split any wineskin, but especially an older one that was already stretched out (Matthew 9:17; Luke 5:37,38). New wine would be grape juice (or a grapeade) mode from grape syrup while old wine would be 2 to 3 years old."

"Grapes were generally harvested in mid to late summer (Hopkins, "The Subsistence Struggles of Early Israel," p.186) and, to prevent spoilage in the intense heat, had to be processed immediately. Stored wine naturally fermented unless it was boiled down or kept cool, ..."

"There have been endless tirades and debates on the nature of the wine made by our Lord at the wedding in Cana (John 2:9,10). Sides are drawn not on the basis of the word oinos, but on the view of abstinence held. The issue seems to be whether or not Jesus would create fermented wine and contribute to the further inebriation of the wedding guests. (Had the wine been unfermented, it would not have had time to ferment since it was consumed immediately.) From the Septuagint usage noted above, the oinos could be fermented or unfermented. Suffice it to say, the "better" wine of course does not in any way imply or demand a more alcoholic, or even an alcoholic, wine at all (one would presume that any wine that God had made would be better than man-made wine)."

Sources: Strong 3631, Bauer 562, Moulton-Milligan 444, Kittel 5:162-66, Liddell-Scott 1207, Colin Brown 3:918,922

Alayman... this is not a primary source. In fact, it is a very bad, twisted and misleading webpage that wrongly uses bad sources: http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2008/04-10b.html The articles on that page just list off names of sources to make it look impressive.

I own all of these sources. You may not own Colin Brown, Bauer and the other sources. I looked at the cited sources and they DO NOT reflect anything in the above internet article... Here is a break-down...
  • They list Colin Brown as a source of their material... there is NOTHING in Colin Brown reflected in the above "study." Colin Brown never discusses oinos as unfermented.
  • Bauer says exactly the opposite as the writer notes above. Here is from Bauer (BDAG): a beverage made from fermented juice of the grape, wine; the word for ‘must’, or unfermented grape juice, is τρύξ
  • In the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, there is ZERO mention of it being associated with "unfermented wine."

In fact, I even own the LXX Greek lexicon. It says oinos is "wine." All of the Scriptural examples the LXX lexicon gives are referring to wine that will make you drunk. There is ZERO discussion about oinos being unfermented.

So, next time you use "Sources" at the end of your post, please give us the true source so that we do not have to go back and dissect a poorly/misleading source. There are other problems on that webpage. Wrong citations are thrown together to give the site an appearance of truth.
 
Thomas Cassidy said:
Yes. Good for you! 2nd grade math didn't zoom right over your head for a change. A glass of the mixed wine served at the marriage feast would have contained between 1% and 3% alcohol. You would have to drink 25 glasses in quick succession to raise your blood alcohol level to .08 - .10.

Poor little baby... got his little feelings hurt..... Do you even have any friends anymore? How's your KJVO rewrites coming? Still being dishonest/lying about not writing the orginals?

You really need to run the #s again. You're getting lost. You have no idea of the percentage of alcohol. None. You don't know the size of those who attended. You have no means to establish "blood alcohol levels". NONE. Yet, that has never stopped in the past from "making it up as you go"..... That's why you have to do all those "rewrites". Look like you'd get it right the first time.

You finally figured it out. They had more guests than they had wine to serve. So Jesus made more. But I can't see anywhere in the narrative that anyone drank over 25 glasses of the stuff.

Oh.... You don't believe that knew the # of guests before hand? Pretty big assumption. Then again, you're rather good at "assuming" a lot of things. I'd imagine wedding planning is a "modern invention of the debil". Right?

I'd say its just as plausible or even more so... that the guests just plain.... drank a lot of wine.




 
AmazedbyGrace said:
It is intellectually dishonest to think wine is unfermented grape juice when the Bible speaks favorably of its use, but fermented when the Bible warns about its use.

A big hay-men on that one!!! Tom is a good guy and I have a feeling he won't provide a full-throated argument. I mean, you really just can't with any sense of credibility.
 
Ransom said:
rsc2a said:
I'm curious. Do you know how cheese or kraut is made?

Or, for that matter, bread, vinegar, tea, yogurt, and any number of other common harmless foods.

Frag is your typical fundy blowhard, so of course his claimed authority on food science is inversely proportional to his actual knowledge of the subject.

Of course Frag has not even attempted to offer a reasoned response...even if wrong. :)
 
Just John said:
A big hay-men on that one!!! Tom is a good guy and I have a feeling he won't provide a full-throated argument. I mean, you really just can't with any sense of credibility.

If you want a full throated argument email me, and I'll send you my six sermon outlines...

Lesson  One
The  Bible  Emphasis?  Alcohol is Bad!

Lesson  Two
Some  Consequences  of  Drinking  Alcohol

Lesson  Three
No  Question  About  It  -  Alcohol  Affects  You

Lesson  Four
Wine?  Context, Context, Context!

Lesson  Five
Wines  in  Bible  Times

Lesson  Six
Did Jesus Drink Alcohol?

;)
 
IF there are so many clarifications of the word wine and it is SO important that we NEVER drink alcohol can someone please explain to me why the bible doesn't give stark clarity to the issue? God is not the author of confusion. And yet it was Jesus' first miracle. I don't think it was a matter of Him getting on the job practice and getting better as he went along?

FWIW - I can't remember the last alcohol I had.
 
Tom Brennan said:
Just John said:
A big hay-men on that one!!! Tom is a good guy and I have a feeling he won't provide a full-throated argument. I mean, you really just can't with any sense of credibility.

If you want a full throated argument email me, and I'll send you my six sermon outlines...

Lesson  One
The  Bible  Emphasis?  Alcohol is Bad!

Lesson  Two
Some  Consequences  of  Drinking  Alcohol

Lesson  Three
No  Question  About  It  -  Alcohol  Affects  You

Lesson  Four
Wine?  Context, Context, Context!

Lesson  Five
Wines  in  Bible  Times

Lesson  Six
Did Jesus Drink Alcohol?

;)

Lol. I think Frag needs them more than I. :)
 
Tom Brennan said:
Agreed. It isn't any more helpful or accurate or fair to refer to those who disagree as drunkards then it is to refer to us as dishonest.

Ok, point taken.  But can I please keep calling them idiots.  Don't know about helpful, but it is accurate. 
 
Tom Brennan said:
If you want a full throated argument email me, and I'll send you my six sermon outlines...

Lesson  One
The  Bible  Emphasis?  Alcohol is Bad!

Using Isaiah 55:1 as your proof text? then that would be like God commanding us to love our wives like we love the hookers on the street corners eh?

Tom Brennan said:
Lesson  Two
Some  Consequences  of  Drinking  Alcohol

Followed by Some Consequences of Baptist Fellowships: A Study Of Gluttony.

Tom Brennan said:
Lesson  Three
No  Question  About  It  -  Alcohol  Affects  You

Psalm 104:14 You cause the grass to grow for the livestock
    and plants for man to cultivate,
that he may bring forth food from the earth
15    and wine to gladden the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine
    and bread to strengthen man's heart.

Ruth 3:7 And when Boaz had eaten and drunk, and his heart was merry,

Judges 9:13 But the vine said to them, ‘Shall I leave my wine that cheers God and men and go hold sway over the trees?’

Tom Brennan said:
Lesson  Four
Wine?  Context, Context, Context!

IFBx'ers Don't need no stinkin' context!

Tom Brennan said:
Lesson  Five
Wines  in  Bible  Times
You mean Grape juice in Bible times?


Tom Brennan said:
Lesson  Six
Did Jesus Drink Alcohol?

Matthew 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”

Wow, If Jesus drank wine and hung out with derelicts of His day, He wasn't a good Baptist then was He?
 
The Fundie explanation of how Jesus turned water into wine:

fizziesGrape.jpg
 
Recovering IFB said:
Tom Brennan said:
If you want a full throated argument email me, and I'll send you my six sermon outlines...

Lesson  One
The  Bible  Emphasis?  Alcohol is Bad!

Using Isaiah 55:1 as your proof text? then that would be like God commanding us to love our wives like we love the hookers on the street corners eh?

Tom Brennan said:
Lesson  Two
Some  Consequences  of  Drinking  Alcohol

Followed by Some Consequences of Baptist Fellowships: A Study Of Gluttony.

Tom Brennan said:
Lesson  Three
No  Question  About  It  -  Alcohol  Affects  You

Psalm 104:14 You cause the grass to grow for the livestock
    and plants for man to cultivate,
that he may bring forth food from the earth
15    and wine to gladden the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine
    and bread to strengthen man's heart.

Ruth 3:7 And when Boaz had eaten and drunk, and his heart was merry,

Judges 9:13 But the vine said to them, ‘Shall I leave my wine that cheers God and men and go hold sway over the trees?’

Tom Brennan said:
Lesson  Four
Wine?  Context, Context, Context!

IFBx'ers Don't need no stinkin' context!

Tom Brennan said:
Lesson  Five
Wines  in  Bible  Times
You mean Grape juice in Bible times?


Tom Brennan said:
Lesson  Six
Did Jesus Drink Alcohol?

Matthew 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”

Wow, If Jesus drank wine and hung out with derelicts of His day, He wasn't a good Baptist then was He?

Well, I surely wish I'd have had your wise counsel and biblical knowledge before I started that study. Just think of how much time I could have saved... How did I ever miss those verses?

8)
 
Tom Brennan said:
Well, I surely wish I'd have had your wise counsel and biblical knowledge before I started that study. Just think of how much time I could have saved... How did I ever miss those verses?

8)

I don't know.  I guess you don't study the Bible very effectively. 

 
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