Stuff Fundies Like is right on this one (and I hate to admit it)

[christundivided]

If you want to talk about twisting, it takes a mental contortionist to conclude that the wine in the bible was grape juice.

Are you saying that every time the Bible uses the word 'wine' it means alcoholic wine?

Obviously not.  The sad part is that many on this thread have been so brainwashed by TV commercials, Hollywood and other sources that promote aged, fermented grape juice as being "good wine".  It is hard for them to comprehend that "good" in this story simply means "fresh". 

Which is "good bread"?  Fresh baked or old, stale, moldy bread?  Why do we assume that juice that had begun to rot -- and that is what fermentation is -- was complemented as "good wine". 

And you folks want to talk about intellectually dishonest???

How about a good fresh "steak"? or would you rather have an "aged" steak? I could list many more.... but you get the picture. Or maybe you don't. I could draw it for you but I'm almost certain you'll get distracted by the pretty "pictures".

I haven't been influenced by Hollywood. You're being intellectual dishonest by claiming you know the motives of others. You're not a mind reader. You can't even makes sense of your own mind. Much less another.

 

[FreeToBeMe]

By "respected Greek lexicon", he means one that interprets oinos to always mean alcoholic wine.  However, there are just as many "unrespected" lexicons that leaves the fermented/unfermented interpretation up to the hyper-fundie pastor's view of the context.

Fixed.

 

[christundivided]

I dislike Hamblin for several reasons, primarily his ego.  I do not believe Jesus produced alcohol for others who were well drunk.  Pro 23:31  Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

I would like to remind you our Lord said....

Luk 22:18  For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

I look forward to that day. I don't have any problem believe it'll be good old fermented wine.

When a person is willing to type this kind of blasphemy, he is well nigh hopeless.  God help you.

You really don't want God to help me. Stop pretending you actually care about me.

Its not blasphemy at all. Are you afraid God can get drunk?

 

[Frag]

If you want to talk about twisting, it takes a mental contortionist to conclude that the wine in the bible was grape juice.

Are you saying that every time the Bible uses the word 'wine' it means alcoholic wine?

Obviously not.  The sad part is that many on this thread have been so brainwashed by TV commercials, Hollywood and other sources that promote aged, fermented grape juice as being "good wine".  It is hard for them to comprehend that "good" in this story simply means "fresh". 

Which is "good bread"?  Fresh baked or old, stale, moldy bread?  Why do we assume that juice that had begun to rot -- and that is what fermentation is -- was complemented as "good wine". 

And you folks want to talk about intellectually dishonest???

How about a good fresh "steak"? or would you rather have an "aged" steak? I could list many more.... but you get the picture. Or maybe you don't. I could draw it for you but I'm almost certain you'll get distracted by the pretty "pictures".

I haven't been influenced by Hollywood. You're being intellectual dishonest by claiming you know the motives of others. You're not a mind reader. You can't even makes sense of your own mind. Much less another.

Leave that steak in the fridge for a month.  Then break it out and grill it when rot has set in.  Again, you are forcing your bias FOR booze into the context of the story.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Frag]Obviously not.  The sad part is that many on this thread have been so brainwashed by TV commercials, Hollywood and other sources that promote aged, fermented grape juice as being "good wine".  It is hard for them to comprehend that "good" in this story simply means "fresh". 

Which is "good bread"?  Fresh baked or old, stale, moldy bread?  Why do we assume that juice that had begun to rot -- and that is what fermentation is -- was complemented as "good wine". 

And you folks want to talk about intellectually dishonest??? [/quote]

I'm curious. Do you know how cheese or kraut is made?

 

[Castor Muscular]

I think I'll have a nice piece of rotted cheese on a rotted piece of bread (sourdough) with a glass of rotted grape juice as an appetizer tonight, followed by a nice rotted piece of steak, with some rotted cabbage (kimchi, homemade with rotted cream - piima - as the starter) on the side.  When I'm done, I might have a small glass of rotted and then distilled corn (bourbon).  And I intend to enjoy it all immensely.  Cheers. 

 

[Castor Muscular]

I'm curious. Do you know how cheese or kraut is made?

How about penicillin?  It started as moldy (rotted) lemon. 

By the way, I rot my own cabbage for kraut and kimchi.  I prefer homemade kraut to the store-bought brands, because the store-bought stuff is boiled, which kills the good bacteria, er, I mean rot in the kraut. 

 

[christundivided]

If you want to talk about twisting, it takes a mental contortionist to conclude that the wine in the bible was grape juice.

Are you saying that every time the Bible uses the word 'wine' it means alcoholic wine?

Obviously not.  The sad part is that many on this thread have been so brainwashed by TV commercials, Hollywood and other sources that promote aged, fermented grape juice as being "good wine".  It is hard for them to comprehend that "good" in this story simply means "fresh". 

Which is "good bread"?  Fresh baked or old, stale, moldy bread?  Why do we assume that juice that had begun to rot -- and that is what fermentation is -- was complemented as "good wine". 

And you folks want to talk about intellectually dishonest???

How about a good fresh "steak"? or would you rather have an "aged" steak? I could list many more.... but you get the picture. Or maybe you don't. I could draw it for you but I'm almost certain you'll get distracted by the pretty "pictures".

I haven't been influenced by Hollywood. You're being intellectual dishonest by claiming you know the motives of others. You're not a mind reader. You can't even makes sense of your own mind. Much less another.

Leave that steak in the fridge for a month.  Then break it out and grill it when rot has set in.  Again, you are forcing your bias FOR booze into the context of the story.

Nope. You're forcing your bias AGAINST booze into the context of the story.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Frag]Leave that steak in the fridge for a month.  Then break it out and grill it when rot has set in.  Again, you are forcing your bias FOR booze into the context of the story.[/quote]

I don't want to pay that much for a steak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beef_aging

 

[ALAYMAN]

Did you know that non alcoholic wines are made by "removing the alcohol"?

No, I didn't, but I'm guessing that to keep the conversation within the context of the Biblical times in which this non-alcoholic oinos should be considered that the same process you are referring to is not what they did.

When "grape juice" is mentioned in ancient cultures, it is a reference to freshly squeezed grapes. Some ancient scholars believe that grape juice is referenced in the old testament but it never confused with "wine"... which is fermented.

That just doesn't seem to be the consensus of things I have read.

Provide a simple source that shows biblical languages make NO distinctions between a fermented drink "wine" and just plain "grape juice".

Okay....

For instance, Aristotle (384-322 B.C.) in Meteorologica clearly refers to grape juice or 'must' (squeezings, "gleukos" ), as one of the kinds of 'oinos' ('wine').

"For some kinds of wine (oinos) for example, 'must' (gleukos), solidify when boiled....the sweet grape beverage ("glukus") which though called 'oinos' has no effects of alcohol, for it does taste like wine, but does not intoxicate like regular (Greek) 'oinos'.
(Aristotle, Meteorologica 384. a. 4-5, 388. b.9-13, See also 388 a. 34 )
In this text Atristotle explicitly informs us that unfermented grape juice was called 'oinos', - 'wine', though it was non-alcoholic.

Likewise, Athenaeus, the Grammarian (A.D. 200) explains in his Banquet that:

The Mityleneans have a 'sweet wine' ('glukon oinon') what they called prodromos, and others call it protropos.. " Later on he recommends this sweet, unfermented 'protropos' for the dyspeptic: "Let him take sweet wine, either mixed with water or warmed, especially that kind called 'protropos', the sweet virgin 'glukus', as being good for the stomach; for sweet sweet oinos does not make the head heavy."
(Athenaeus, Banquet 1,54, 2,24,)

 

[Castor Muscular]

By the way, "Noble Rot" is a natural yeast that grows on grapes and produces some of the best wines.  It's almost as if God knows what he's doing. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_rot

 

[Fresh Air]

I can save you the time. Just get out a respected Greek lexicon and look up oinos. It means alcoholic wine.

I'm not an expert on anything and didn't stay at a Holidyay Inn last night, and certainly not a Biblical language guru, but a cursory examination of your claim seems to not be as iron-clad as you dogmatically assert.  Many sources claim that "oinos" can be an unfermented drink.

This is what I was referring to. It is not near as clear cut as simply oinos is alcohol. It was clearly and repeatedly used both ways in the secular literature of the time, and I think it was used both ways in the biblical literature of the time. Now in relation to 'trux' specifically I cannot comment, but I do know oinos was used both ways.

 

[Fresh Air]

Pastor Tom, Frag,

Could you share your thoughts on the wine that was served at the wedding prior to its running out? Was it alcoholic wine or grape juice?

Thnx

I don't know.

 

[subllibrm]

Pastor Tom, Frag,

Could you share your thoughts on the wine that was served at the wedding prior to its running out? Was it alcoholic wine or grape juice?

Thnx

I don't know.

Thank you for your honesty.

 

[Fresh Air]

For instance, Aristotle (384-322 B.C.) in Meteorologica clearly refers to grape juice or 'must' (squeezings, "gleukos" ), as one of the kinds of 'oinos' ('wine').

"For some kinds of wine (oinos) for example, 'must' (gleukos), solidify when boiled....the sweet grape beverage ("glukus") which though called 'oinos' has no effects of alcohol, for it does taste like wine, but does not intoxicate like regular (Greek) 'oinos'.
(Aristotle, Meteorologica 384. a. 4-5, 388. b.9-13, See also 388 a. 34 )
In this text Atristotle explicitly informs us that unfermented grape juice was called 'oinos', - 'wine', though it was non-alcoholic.

Likewise, Athenaeus, the Grammarian (A.D. 200) explains in his Banquet that:

The Mityleneans have a 'sweet wine' ('glukon oinon') what they called prodromos, and others call it protropos.. " Later on he recommends this sweet, unfermented 'protropos' for the dyspeptic: "Let him take sweet wine, either mixed with water or warmed, especially that kind called 'protropos', the sweet virgin 'glukus', as being good for the stomach; for sweet sweet oinos does not make the head heavy."
(Athenaeus, Banquet 1,54, 2,24,)

[/quote]

I've got about another three dozen of these if somebody really wants them. There is a staggering amount of verified historical evidence that un-fermented grape juice was preserved for lengthy periods of time in many different Mediterranean cultures going back thousands of years. And it was often called 'wine' to boot.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

Provide a simple source that shows biblical languages make NO distinctions between a fermented drink "wine" and just plain "grape juice".

Okay....

For instance, Aristotle (384-322 B.C.) in Meteorologica clearly refers to grape juice or 'must' (squeezings, "gleukos" ), as one of the kinds of 'oinos' ('wine').

"For some kinds of wine (oinos) for example, 'must' (gleukos), solidify when boiled....the sweet grape beverage ("glukus") which though called 'oinos' has no effects of alcohol, for it does taste like wine, but does not intoxicate like regular (Greek) 'oinos'.
(Aristotle, Meteorologica 384. a. 4-5, 388. b.9-13, See also 388 a. 34 )
In this text Atristotle explicitly informs us that unfermented grape juice was called 'oinos', - 'wine', though it was non-alcoholic.

Likewise, Athenaeus, the Grammarian (A.D. 200) explains in his Banquet that:

The Mityleneans have a 'sweet wine' ('glukon oinon') what they called prodromos, and others call it protropos.. " Later on he recommends this sweet, unfermented 'protropos' for the dyspeptic: "Let him take sweet wine, either mixed with water or warmed, especially that kind called 'protropos', the sweet virgin 'glukus', as being good for the stomach; for sweet sweet oinos does not make the head heavy."
(Athenaeus, Banquet 1,54, 2,24,)

[/quote]

Since when does a random forum post count as a legitimate academic source?

And Aristotle explicitly states that you are wrong. "Ordinary" wine was alcoholic and he felt the need to add the qualifier "sweet" to distinguish between the two. Is the qualifier in the Biblical text? . It is the burden of the prohibitionist to explain why we shouldn't understand the word oinos to be the ordinary usage instead of a special case, when the cultural context in many cases requires ordinary usage.

In fact, Athenaeus also adds the qualifier 'sweet' to oinos to differentiate juice from ordinary wine. It would appear that the accepted way to describe juice as oinos in the Greek is to add the qualifier to the word. So, again, I ask, does the Biblical text do this?

 

[Castor Muscular]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

Provide a simple source that shows biblical languages make NO distinctions between a fermented drink "wine" and just plain "grape juice".

Okay....

For instance, Aristotle (384-322 B.C.) in Meteorologica clearly refers to grape juice or 'must' (squeezings, "gleukos" ), as one of the kinds of 'oinos' ('wine').

"For some kinds of wine (oinos) for example, 'must' (gleukos), solidify when boiled....the sweet grape beverage ("glukus") which though called 'oinos' has no effects of alcohol, for it does taste like wine, but does not intoxicate like regular (Greek) 'oinos'.
(Aristotle, Meteorologica 384. a. 4-5, 388. b.9-13, See also 388 a. 34 )
In this text Atristotle explicitly informs us that unfermented grape juice was called 'oinos', - 'wine', though it was non-alcoholic.

Likewise, Athenaeus, the Grammarian (A.D. 200) explains in his Banquet that:

The Mityleneans have a 'sweet wine' ('glukon oinon') what they called prodromos, and others call it protropos.. " Later on he recommends this sweet, unfermented 'protropos' for the dyspeptic: "Let him take sweet wine, either mixed with water or warmed, especially that kind called 'protropos', the sweet virgin 'glukus', as being good for the stomach; for sweet sweet oinos does not make the head heavy."
(Athenaeus, Banquet 1,54, 2,24,)

Since when does a random forum post count as a legitimate academic source?

And Aristotle explicitly states that you are wrong. "Ordinary" wine was alcoholic and he felt the need to add the qualifier "sweet" to distinguish between the two. Is the qualifier in the Biblical text? . It is the burden of the prohibitionist to explain why we shouldn't understand the word oinos to be the ordinary usage instead of a special case, when the cultural context in many cases requires ordinary usage.

In fact, Athenaeus also adds the qualifier 'sweet' to oinos to differentiate juice from ordinary wine. It would appear that the accepted way to describe juice as oinos in the Greek is to add the qualifier to the word. So, again, I ask, does the Biblical text do this?
[/quote]

Also...

Glukon oinon, prodromos, protropos?  Sounds like they called it something other than oinos. 

But I'm content to switch the meaning wherever I please.  For example:

"Grape juice is a mocker, strong grape juice is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

That actually makes sense.  What the... I thought this was wine!  I've been deceived!  It's just crappy grape juice!

 

[subllibrm]

FWIW I like Welches concord grape juice over crushed ice a lot. Wine? Not at all.

Not fond of NyQuil either.  8)

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

Provide a simple source that shows biblical languages make NO distinctions between a fermented drink "wine" and just plain "grape juice".

Okay....

For instance, Aristotle (384-322 B.C.) in Meteorologica clearly refers to grape juice or 'must' (squeezings, "gleukos" ), as one of the kinds of 'oinos' ('wine').

"For some kinds of wine (oinos) for example, 'must' (gleukos), solidify when boiled....the sweet grape beverage ("glukus") which though called 'oinos' has no effects of alcohol, for it does taste like wine, but does not intoxicate like regular (Greek) 'oinos'.
(Aristotle, Meteorologica 384. a. 4-5, 388. b.9-13, See also 388 a. 34 )
In this text Atristotle explicitly informs us that unfermented grape juice was called 'oinos', - 'wine', though it was non-alcoholic.

Likewise, Athenaeus, the Grammarian (A.D. 200) explains in his Banquet that:

The Mityleneans have a 'sweet wine' ('glukon oinon') what they called prodromos, and others call it protropos.. " Later on he recommends this sweet, unfermented 'protropos' for the dyspeptic: "Let him take sweet wine, either mixed with water or warmed, especially that kind called 'protropos', the sweet virgin 'glukus', as being good for the stomach; for sweet sweet oinos does not make the head heavy."
(Athenaeus, Banquet 1,54, 2,24,)

Since when does a random forum post count as a legitimate academic source?

And Aristotle explicitly states that you are wrong. "Ordinary" wine was alcoholic and he felt the need to add the qualifier "sweet" to distinguish between the two. Is the qualifier in the Biblical text? . It is the burden of the prohibitionist to explain why we shouldn't understand the word oinos to be the ordinary usage instead of a special case, when the cultural context in many cases requires ordinary usage.

In fact, Athenaeus also adds the qualifier 'sweet' to oinos to differentiate juice from ordinary wine. It would appear that the accepted way to describe juice as oinos in the Greek is to add the qualifier to the word. So, again, I ask, does the Biblical text do this?
[/quote]

I agree. There is no denying that non alcoholic "grape juice" existed. The issue is whether there was any distinction made in biblical languages to differentiate between the two. The answer is yes. Ransom mentioned the Greek source for "grape juice" and some ancient Hebrew scholars actually believe that when "honey" is sometimes mentioned, its actually some type of "grape juice".

Not to mention the fact that any mature language would differentiate between the two. When you're talking about any "drink", it would be necessary to differentiate between one that might get you drunk and one that doesn't have that issue.

This is some of the "grounds" by most scholars of biblical language to determine "wine" is a reference to a "fermented beverage" .

 

[Castor Muscular]

I agree. There is no denying that non alcoholic "grape juice" existed. The issue is whether there was any distinction made in biblical languages to differentiate between the two. The answer is yes. Ransom mentioned the Greek source for "grape juice" and some ancient Hebrew scholars actually believe that when "honey" is sometimes mentioned, its actually some type of "grape juice".

Not to mention the fact that any mature language would differentiate between the two. When you're talking about any "drink", it would be necessary to differentiate between one that might get you drunk and one that doesn't have that issue.

This is some of the "grounds" by most scholars of biblical language to determine "wine" is a reference to a "fermented beverage" .

I agree.  The worst kind of eisegesis is to interpret oinos/yayin as wine when it's referred to as a bad thing, and interpret oinos/yayin as grape juice when it's referred to as a good thing.  That's just changing the word of God to fit your personal opinion of alcoholic beverages.