Stuff Fundies Like is right on this one (and I hate to admit it)

[AmazedbyGrace]

IFBxers tend to think any drinking of alcohol whatsoever equals drunkenness.

Nyquil is about 10% alcohol.  Do IFBxers get drunk when they take two tablespoons of Nyquil?

I don't believe that they do, but there are some who consider drinking one glass of wine "drunkenness". It is all black/white to many.


Many will wink at medicinal use of alcohol, while claiming proudly that alcohol has never touched their lips.

 

[Thomas Cassidy]

Two things are necessary to understand what Jesus did at the marriage feast in Canaan.

1. "Wine" in the bible does not mean exactly the same as we use it today. "Wine" was a common beverage served at meals and other social gatherings. "Wine" was beverage alcohol mixed with water at usually 4 or 5 parts water to one part wine. This was done for two reasons. First was to purify the water of any pathogens that could cause illness. The alcohol killed the germs in the water. The second was to avoid drunkenness.

2. "Strong drink" was when wine was served straight without mixing with water. The distilling of wine into brandy did not occur in Europe/western Asia until the 12th century AD. As wine did not travel well (the shaking mixed the sediments into the wine making it bitter) the practice in the middle ages was to distill the wine into brandy, then, when it arrived at its destination, to mix it with water and drink it. As time passed many people began to prefer the distilled spirits straight without mixing. But even today, "mixed drinks" are more popular than straight brandy, whiskey, gin or vodka.

So, when the wine ran out, or was "well drunk" Jesus took water jugs and turned the water into wine. My assumption is that he turned the water into the mixed wine which was usually served on such occasions. Alcoholic? Sure. How much would you have to drink to get drunk? More than your stomach could hold!

 

[kaba]

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby is unwise. ....wondering what God was trying to say here!




Nobody starts out to be an alcoholic....my children have never met their grandmother (husbands side) because she enjoyed drinking (a little won't hurt you), they never met their great uncle nor great grandparents, because of course drinking doesn't hurt anyone!!! In the past two months they have  seen how alcohol has deceived and deeply hurt and altered their uncles life! As a 54 year old man now looks back on his life and sees how he neglected his boys, lied to church members and friends. Gone from a good paying job to joless and penniless! How not having a loving mother because she was busy enjoying life and drinking was more important than her boys!  My innocent children have to feel this loss and pain because what started off so innocent as one drink lead to controlling their relatives life. So when people TRY to explain why drinking is not bad, and how God doesn't discourage it has obviously never experienced how it really affects lives. Go ahead have that drink but you are lying to yourself if you think it doesn't hurt people.

 

[Ransom]

Are you saying that every time the Bible uses the word 'wine' it means alcoholic wine?

Koine has a word for grape juice: trux. How come it is never used in the New Testament?

 

[Castor Muscular]

Are you saying that every time the Bible uses the word 'wine' it means alcoholic wine?

Koine has a word for grape juice: trux. How come it is never used in the New Testament?

Does that mean when I'm going to buy grape juice, I'm going to pickup trux?

 

[Ransom]

Does that mean when I'm going to buy grape juice, I'm going to pickup trux?

You'd think so, reading Google . . . the way it tries to guess what your search terms really mean is sometimes too smart for its own good.

 

[Fresh Air]

I haven't done a word study to find any exceptions in some unusual context, but I'm guessing yes.  Yeast grows on grapes. The moment you make grape juice, it starts fermenting.  Heck, it starts fermenting on the vine if you let it.  Wine is wine.

(Christundivided) Yes. Absolutely.

Its amazes me how people will take verses like be "not drunk with wine" and say its fermented wine and the next time they read the word "wine" they say its nothing more than grape juice.

The only think you have to say anything different is some idiots that wrote a few books saying there was no such thing as "fermented" wine in Jesus's day....

It either is... or it isn't. You can't have it both ways.

...you guys don't seriously believe that Welch was the first guy to preserve grape juice in an unfermented format, do you? I mean, you do realize there are dozens of historical references to non-alcoholic grape juice being preserved over lengthy periods of time millennia before Welch and of it being called 'wine', don't you?

 

[Fresh Air]

It is intellectually dishonest to think wine is unfermented grape juice when the Bible speaks favorably of its use, but fermented when the Bible warns about its use.

Alternatively, one could say it is intellectually consistent to do so, and intellectually dishonest to refuse to consider the possibility that it is so.

 

[cave_dweller]

I dislike Hamblin for several reasons, primarily his ego.  I do not believe Jesus produced alcohol for others who were well drunk.  Pro 23:31  Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

Back up one verse and you will see that the context is a warning to the drunkards. In fact, the whole passage is dealing with those who let alcohol take them over into drunkenness.

Wow, now I guess we know the drinkers on this forum.

 

[Fresh Air]

Are you saying that every time the Bible uses the word 'wine' it means alcoholic wine?

Koine has a word for grape juice: trux. How come it is never used in the New Testament?

If I could figure out how to use my new Logos I think I might be able to answer that...

 

[Frag]

I would take the time to school all you idiots who claim Jesus produced alcohol....

...but I learned a long time ago not to argue with a drunk. 

 

[freelance_christian]

Are you saying that every time the Bible uses the word 'wine' it means alcoholic wine?

Koine has a word for grape juice: trux. How come it is never used in the New Testament?

If I could figure out how to use my new Logos I think I might be able to answer that...

I can save you the time. Just get out a respected Greek lexicon and look up oinos. It means alcoholic wine. Be not drunk with oinos is the command in Ephesians 5:18. Since the Greeks had a word for the juice from the first pressing of the grapes -- trux -- it would make sense that if that is what Jesus made then that is the word that the Holy Spirit would have used. If oinos is the alcoholic wine that they served first at the wedding feast, then it makes sense that the oinos that Jesus miraculously made was the same. None of this means that you have to become a proponent of drinking alcohol, but at least you'll be intellectually honest about the issue.

 

[subllibrm]

Pastor Tom, Frag,

Could you share your thoughts on the wine that was served at the wedding prior to its running out? Was it alcoholic wine or grape juice?

Thnx

 

[ALAYMAN]

I can save you the time. Just get out a respected Greek lexicon and look up oinos. It means alcoholic wine.

I'm not an expert on anything and didn't stay at a Holidyay Inn last night, and certainly not a Biblical language guru, but a cursory examination of your claim seems to not be as iron-clad as you dogmatically assert.  Many sources claim that "oinos" can be an unfermented drink.

 

[christundivided]

Pastor Tom, Frag,

Could you share your thoughts on the wine that was served at the wedding prior to its running out? Was it alcoholic wine or grape juice?

Thnx

Don't expect an answer. They purposely ignore the statements of the guests.

 

[christundivided]

I can save you the time. Just get out a respected Greek lexicon and look up oinos. It means alcoholic wine.

I'm not an expert on anything and didn't stay at a Holidyay Inn last night, and certainly not a Biblical language guru, but a cursory examination of your claim seems to not be as iron-clad as you dogmatically assert.  Many sources claim that "oinos" can be an unfermented drink.

Did you know that non alcoholic wines are made by "removing the alcohol"?

When "grape juice" is mentioned in ancient cultures, it is a reference to freshly squeezed grapes. Some ancient scholars believe that grape juice is referenced in the old testament but it never confused with "wine"... which is fermented.

Provide a simple source that shows biblical languages make NO distinctions between a fermented drink "wine" and just plain "grape juice".

 

[christundivided]

Two things are necessary to understand what Jesus did at the marriage feast in Canaan.

1. "Wine" in the bible does not mean exactly the same as we use it today. "Wine" was a common beverage served at meals and other social gatherings. "Wine" was beverage alcohol mixed with water at usually 4 or 5 parts water to one part wine. This was done for two reasons. First was to purify the water of any pathogens that could cause illness. The alcohol killed the germs in the water. The second was to avoid drunkenness.

2. "Strong drink" was when wine was served straight without mixing with water. The distilling of wine into brandy did not occur in Europe/western Asia until the 12th century AD. As wine did not travel well (the shaking mixed the sediments into the wine making it bitter) the practice in the middle ages was to distill the wine into brandy, then, when it arrived at its destination, to mix it with water and drink it. As time passed many people began to prefer the distilled spirits straight without mixing. But even today, "mixed drinks" are more popular than straight brandy, whiskey, gin or vodka.

So, when the wine ran out, or was "well drunk" Jesus took water jugs and turned the water into wine. My assumption is that he turned the water into the mixed wine which was usually served on such occasions. Alcoholic? Sure. How much would you have to drink to get drunk? More than your stomach could hold!

Its obvious you don't understand the affects of alcohol. By your math, it would have taken 4 to 5 glasses of wine to equal 1 glass of today's wine. I'd say a "teetotaler" like yourself would get pretty tipsy on one good glass of wine. Its not unreasonable to think that the wedding guests wouldn't have drank more than 4 or 5 glasses. In fact, THEY RAN OUT. Obviously they didn't plan for them to be drinking SO MUCH wine.

 

[Frag]

I can save you the time. Just get out a respected Greek lexicon and look up oinos. It means alcoholic wine.

I'm not an expert on anything and didn't stay at a Holidyay Inn last night, and certainly not a Biblical language guru, but a cursory examination of your claim seems to not be as iron-clad as you dogmatically assert.  Many sources claim that "oinos" can be an unfermented drink.

By "respected Greek lexicon", he means one that interprets oinos to always mean alcoholic wine.  However, there are just as many "unrespected" lexicons that leaves the fermented/unfermented interpretation up to the context. 

 

[Frag]

If you want to talk about twisting, it takes a mental contortionist to conclude that the wine in the bible was grape juice.

Are you saying that every time the Bible uses the word 'wine' it means alcoholic wine?

Obviously not.  The sad part is that many on this thread have been so brainwashed by TV commercials, Hollywood and other sources that promote aged, fermented grape juice as being "good wine".  It is hard for them to comprehend that "good" in this story simply means "fresh". 

Which is "good bread"?  Fresh baked or old, stale, moldy bread?  Why do we assume that juice that had begun to rot -- and that is what fermentation is -- was complemented as "good wine". 

And you folks want to talk about intellectually dishonest??? 

 

[Frag]

I dislike Hamblin for several reasons, primarily his ego.  I do not believe Jesus produced alcohol for others who were well drunk.  Pro 23:31  Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

I would like to remind you our Lord said....

Luk 22:18  For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

I look forward to that day. I don't have any problem believe it'll be good old fermented wine.

When a person is willing to type this kind of blasphemy, he is well nigh hopeless.  God help you.