If you'd like to go in a different direction too, then this could be a help for you. Here, you will learn to disregard most all standards, learn to cuss, and discuss sex without the shame.
So why the drastic change in beliefs?
- Thread starter RAIDER
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2013
- Messages
- 308
- Reaction score
- 14
- Points
- 18
IFB X-Files said:
I am going to take just a short little stab at this thread. I will probably bring up a lot more stories in the near future but here goes:
As a lot of you know I attended fbch for 25 years. I left my home, our family business, the beautiful northwoods, and a lot of the things I was raised to love to move to Hammond to be a part of the church and attend hackadoodle. For the past 10 or 12 years I still attended fbch faithfully and was involved in some of the ministries (not nearly what I did when I first came) but I more or less endured the church services. I received very little from the preaching and teaching but I was around so many people who were die-hard fbch people who were so in love with their church and hyles and even schaap that I would sit there and think, "What is wrong with me?" And I was ifb and hacker to the core.
When I decided last summer that I would never again sit and listen to schaap I thought that I would visit other ifb churches in the area and even had a couple of sbc churches on the radar and wanted to visit and see what they were about. After several weeks of not going anywhere I decided that something was better than nothing so I attendeded an evangelical, non-denominational church in the area that was quite popular and where some of our former fbch people (including my son) had started to attend. I had seen a lot of these young people who were half-in half-out go there and all of a sudden it seems that their spiritual lives had caught fire and begun to blossom and I was curious.
The first thing that hits you is that most of the music is contemporary. They have a worship time and drums and electric guitars and acoustic guitars. Along with that is some old hymns and favorites.
Another thing that hits you is that the pastor does not wear a tie and a lot of people come in very casual dress. My ifb hair began to stand on end and my hackles were raised.
The very first service I went to an assistant pastor was preaching. He said our mission statement is very simple. Our desire is for everyone who walks through these to have a personal relationship with Christ and a personal encounter with Him and if it is not at this church then somewhere else but that is the most important goal we have for this service! What ??? If it is not fbch or ifb then it is not a real encounter, right?
JH used to say that people choose their lifestyles and then choose their church accordingly and I used to believe that but I have found that this is not always true.
All I can tell you is that if you had told me 10 years ago that I would ever go to a non-denominational church I would have spit on your hamburger. I actually ENJOY going to church again and can't wait until the next Sunday! There are a lot of people who love the Lord and are committed to Him even though they do not have the same separation standards as we were brought up with.
One last thing. Last Sunday night I attended fbch for the first time since last July because my granddaughter begged me to go. Pastor Wilkerson is a very humble and sincere man and I hope he does well but here are my observations: When I go to Bethel it is very God centered and Bible centered. When I go to fbch it is very man centered. By this I mean, and even last Sunday night, You need to do more, pray more, more evangelism, more giving, more, more, more! This non-d church has a weekend every year dedicated to "All About Him"!
I can't say that I am always right but I know what I like!
I am going to tell some stories here about some of the thing that I have personally seen from fbch so that maybe some of you will understand.
As a lot of you know I attended fbch for 25 years. I left my home, our family business, the beautiful northwoods, and a lot of the things I was raised to love to move to Hammond to be a part of the church and attend hackadoodle. For the past 10 or 12 years I still attended fbch faithfully and was involved in some of the ministries (not nearly what I did when I first came) but I more or less endured the church services. I received very little from the preaching and teaching but I was around so many people who were die-hard fbch people who were so in love with their church and hyles and even schaap that I would sit there and think, "What is wrong with me?" And I was ifb and hacker to the core.
When I decided last summer that I would never again sit and listen to schaap I thought that I would visit other ifb churches in the area and even had a couple of sbc churches on the radar and wanted to visit and see what they were about. After several weeks of not going anywhere I decided that something was better than nothing so I attendeded an evangelical, non-denominational church in the area that was quite popular and where some of our former fbch people (including my son) had started to attend. I had seen a lot of these young people who were half-in half-out go there and all of a sudden it seems that their spiritual lives had caught fire and begun to blossom and I was curious.
The first thing that hits you is that most of the music is contemporary. They have a worship time and drums and electric guitars and acoustic guitars. Along with that is some old hymns and favorites.
Another thing that hits you is that the pastor does not wear a tie and a lot of people come in very casual dress. My ifb hair began to stand on end and my hackles were raised.
The very first service I went to an assistant pastor was preaching. He said our mission statement is very simple. Our desire is for everyone who walks through these to have a personal relationship with Christ and a personal encounter with Him and if it is not at this church then somewhere else but that is the most important goal we have for this service! What ??? If it is not fbch or ifb then it is not a real encounter, right?
JH used to say that people choose their lifestyles and then choose their church accordingly and I used to believe that but I have found that this is not always true.
All I can tell you is that if you had told me 10 years ago that I would ever go to a non-denominational church I would have spit on your hamburger. I actually ENJOY going to church again and can't wait until the next Sunday! There are a lot of people who love the Lord and are committed to Him even though they do not have the same separation standards as we were brought up with.
One last thing. Last Sunday night I attended fbch for the first time since last July because my granddaughter begged me to go. Pastor Wilkerson is a very humble and sincere man and I hope he does well but here are my observations: When I go to Bethel it is very God centered and Bible centered. When I go to fbch it is very man centered. By this I mean, and even last Sunday night, You need to do more, pray more, more evangelism, more giving, more, more, more! This non-d church has a weekend every year dedicated to "All About Him"!
I can't say that I am always right but I know what I like!
I am going to tell some stories here about some of the thing that I have personally seen from fbch so that maybe some of you will understand.
But..but..did you dress up for Easter??? 
[/quote]
I always wear a suit coat and suit pants but no tie. I haven't worn a tie in almost a year except to funerals. And believe it or not when I was in hac we went on vacation and planned on going to church. When I found out that I had forgotten to bring a tie we didn't go because I said I will not go to church without a tie.
[/quote]
I always wear a suit coat and suit pants but no tie. I haven't worn a tie in almost a year except to funerals. And believe it or not when I was in hac we went on vacation and planned on going to church. When I found out that I had forgotten to bring a tie we didn't go because I said I will not go to church without a tie.
RAIDER said:
I could give you 8 or 12 stories but here is one. A young man who grew up at fbch had the appearance of everything being okay spiritually. Both his parents were on staff at either the church or college. Almost everyone on here would know who it is if I gave the name. He married a girl who he met at hac. Just a few years later I found out that he was cheating on his wife and their marriage was on the rocks.
Now somehow he started going to another church and the next thing I know he is involved in the ministries and he gave a testimony at one of the services. He said that everyone who looked at me would have thought that I was the perfect christian young man. I did the right things. I dressed right. My wife dressed right. We kind of attended church but inside my life was a mess. He is now on staff.
He has told me personally that going to another church saved his marriage. He also says that his parents are adamantly opposed to his new church. He said my dad yells at me and my mother just cries. He also said that for the first time in his life he was actively studying the Bible and his heart is in the ministry.
Another young man and his wife grew up at fbch. His father was on staff at the college. He taught at City Baptist for years and was laid off when they cut back. He tried to find another teaching job but found that his degree was unacceptable and he ran into some public school teachers from this new church that helped him out greatly.
Now when I talked to this young man he told me that when they decided to look for another church they attended about 50 different churches from pentecostal to lutheran. They decided they liked this other church and joined. He told me just a couple of weeks ago that someone from his work said to him, "Man, all you talk about is church. You must really like it." He said I really do!
Now you tell me this because I surely don't have all the answers. Is it better for your own children to have a vibrant walk with God and be heavily involved in a ministry even if it is not exactly what they were raised with? Or is it better just to continue on in the same old way because after all, grandma and grandpa went here, mom and dad went here, and I will to even though it is drudgery? And most of it has absolutely NOTHING to do with doctrinal deviations or anything of the sort. It is exclusively the little pet separation laws that have been created.
And here is the kicker! For the most part when you decide to leave fbch and go elsewhere you become anathema. Nobody but nobody will ask you about your church, your spiritual life, your walk with God, or the like. It is like you fell off the face of the earth. Now that tells me a lot about their church leaders priorities for people's lives. IMO
M
myeyesareopen
Guest
We were told today we have to strengthen the wall of separation in order to be closer to God, so I am not sure I should acknowledge your excellent and thought provoking post...
M
myeyesareopen
Guest
I was having a little fun with ya there...separation from negative worldly influences, which is of course a good thing. I know several people who go to Bethel and others that go to Liberty in Chesterton - their walk seems quite real and vital and effective. We don't have the corner on God here at FBC that we think we do...
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2013
- Messages
- 8,299
- Reaction score
- 109
- Points
- 63
Norefund said:
Comments like these always make me shake my head. Legalism is adding a work to salvation. I don't believe I have ever heard anyone at FBCH/HAC say that you had to wear a dress or get a hair cut in order to receive salvation. Secondly, you talk about standards having nothing to do with beliefs. If what you believe doesn't make a difference in the way you live then do you really have a belief? And BTW, you do have standards. You may not have the same standards as they required at HAC, but you do have standards. If you are trying to live a Christian life on any level, there are others that will look at you and consider your standards ridiculous.
RAIDER said:
When adding a work to sanctification folks also classify that as legalism. I prefer to call it performance based Christianity.
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2013
- Messages
- 4,336
- Reaction score
- 89
- Points
- 48
Mathew Ward said:
I agree.
For years I would grow angry when classified as a legalist. Legalists are adding works to salvation which an IFB definitely does not do - in fact, many of them ignore even the understanding of salvation and get kids to say a prayer so they can get candy (which is another issue). Over the past year, I have been re-evaluating and reading from many different sources. I have discovered that many people also define a legalist as one who adds works to sanctification, which is wrong. I prefer to use the term performance based Christianity because of the old definition with which I am familiar.
I have come to realize the HAC model of IFB to teach salvation by grace but christian living by works. Just today, I read the intro to a marriage book by an IFB evangelist. He stated that man was made to serve God. Wrong. Man was made to glorify God. There is a difference. I didn't need to read anything else in this book.
Performance Based Christianity leaves people needing to do more in order to earn the fruits of the spirit. However, Scripture teaches we are to abide in the True Vine that we might bear fruit. PBC leaves people feeling inadequate and scoffed by those who have supposedly "arrived." Relationship Based Christianity leaves people with the joy and peace of honoring God - our true purpose in life.
E
Evelyn
Guest
IFB X-Files said:
So, if I see you in Wal-Mart, how do I know you're not buying cigarettes and/or beer?
I would like to believe that if someone saw you in the movie theater, the FIRST thought in their head about you WOULDN'T be that you were going to see porn.
E
Evelyn
Guest
RAIDER said:
Raider, there is some miscommunication going on. In the IFB world, "legalism" literally means "adding something for salvation." I have learned that in the rest of the world, that isn't what legalism means. For everyone else, "legalism" means "having to do things in order to be 'right with God.'"
Folks, if we don't have to 'do things' in order to be right with God then my entire concept of Christianity is wrong-headed - or yours is. Holiness isn't something foisted upon us. By the grace of God, and in the power of the Holy Spirit, we are called to DO a whole bunch of things and not DO a whole bunch of things. This idea that we just sit down on our blessed assurance while God magically zaps us with sanctification is nonsense. No, we don't DO these things in our strength, but they sure must be done, and done by us.
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2012
- Messages
- 9,131
- Reaction score
- 1,145
- Points
- 113
Tom Brennan said:
I agree that growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ requires some human effort...but we would greatly disagree on what that might mean. I don't believe a praise team, drums or a screen in service has anything to do with that!
Tom Brennan said:
It's either work or grace.
You can work for your sanctification if you want to just like folks can work for their salvation if they want to.
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2013
- Messages
- 8,018
- Reaction score
- 56
- Points
- 48
Tom Brennan said:
Tom, you and I don't agree on much, but I do agree with you here. Jesus taught about abiding in the Vine to bear fruit He produces and it is up to us to do the abiding and remain attached to the Vine.