So, what did you/do you believe?

[prophet]

I had a copy of that police report. It happened. I really would prefer that we not go to deep on this one as the woman involved and her husband have reconciled and I don't see the point. Dave Hyles has no credibility with anyone on here and even the most ardent JH supporter here believes JH turned a deaf ear to Dave's affairs.

I found out, when it was written on the train bridge, on route 30 west bound side, that I drove under on the way home from school every day.  And it was 1987.

Anishinabe

 

[Fresh Air]

I believe that Bro. Hyles sacrificed his family on the altar of ministry.

A man that would do that is capable of anything. Step up. Those of you who support JH...step up. Tell us how you are willing, for the good of your ministry, to sacrifice your family. Tell us how you think that was the right thing to do and how it saved America.

I don't think any of us who believe that Bro. Hyles was innocent of adultery believe he was right to sacrifice his family on the altar of his ministry. Bob Gray might think so, but I can't think of anybody else who might. Certainly not anybody who has posted on this thread. When I said in my post that I thought 'he was a bad father' I wrote those words on purpose, and there are a bunch of reasons behind it. But that doesn't make him an adulterer, or a fraud. It just makes him wrong, and sadly so, in that area.

 

[bgwilkinson]

1Ti 3:4  One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5  (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

He had lost his right to be a pastor as he could not rule his own house.

 

[Fresh Air]

1Ti 3:4  One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5  (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

He had lost his right to be a pastor as he could not rule his own house.

I think you will find considerable disagreement amongst reasonable and spiritual people on how to interpret/apply those verses. Many people suppose that includes adult children, and how they behave, and others only think that applies to minor children. If you take the latter position, he wasn't disqualified by Dave's actions at all. Curiously, though, most of those who take the former position find that the experiences of life lead them often to the latter position in time.

BTW, in reference to this, one of the things that Bro. Hyles did back then, in the midst of this that I so admire is directly related. Roger Voegtlin hurled fireballs at his  head for not keeping control of Dave, and said that Bro. Hyles should be out of the ministry. Yet Roger Voegtlin had adopted children who were guilty of similar kinds of things. Bro. Hyles knew that, and yet never hurled fireballs back at Roger Voegtlin. That kind of self control, and refusal to attack someone who is attacking you when you have the perfect ammunition is the type of thing that causes me, still, to believe in Bro. Hyles' basic integrity.

 

[prophet]

Hey,  B.C.  : The door is there.  It leads into a little teeny room.  on the other side of that little teeny room, is a door that leads into Jenny corle's office.  In the room was a desk, with sorting bins, and that's all that would fit in the space.
The way he described it, neither party could open the other's door.  This I know not, since I had it propped open on both sides, so I could paint it.

Anishinabe

 

[prophet]

1Ti 3:4  One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5  (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

He had lost his right to be a pastor as he could not rule his own house.

Yes.

Anishinabe

 

[bgwilkinson]

Hey,  B.C.  : The door is there.  It leads into a little teeny room.  on the other side of that little teeny room, is a door that leads into Jenny corle's office.  In the room was a desk, with sorting bins, and that's all that would fit in the space.
The way he described it, neither party could open the other's door.  This I know not, since I had it propped open on both sides, so I could paint it.

Anishinabe

I can not believe anyone is still trying to claim that door was not there. It was there and it was fully operational throughout the 60's and 70's and into the 80's.

It was a bit like a tunnel. Tunnel of love.

 

[prophet]

The door was still there, in 2003, the last time I walked through it.

Anishinabe

 

[bgwilkinson]

1Ti 3:4  One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5  (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

He had lost his right to be a pastor as he could not rule his own house.

I think you will find considerable disagreement amongst reasonable and spiritual people on how to interpret/apply those verses. Many people suppose that includes adult children, and how they behave, and others only think that applies to minor children. If you take the latter position, he wasn't disqualified by Dave's actions at all. Curiously, though, most of those who take the former position find that the experiences of life lead them often to the latter position in time.

BTW, in reference to this, one of the things that Bro. Hyles did back then, in the midst of this that I so admire is directly related. Roger Voegtlin hurled fireballs at his  head for not keeping control of Dave, and said that Bro. Hyles should be out of the ministry. Yet Roger Voegtlin had adopted children who were guilty of similar kinds of things. Bro. Hyles knew that, and yet never hurled fireballs back at Roger Voegtlin. That kind of self control, and refusal to attack someone who is attacking you when you have the perfect ammunition is the type of thing that causes me, still, to believe in Bro. Hyles' basic integrity.

Daves misconduct started in high school and increased as he was the youngest youth director in the world. He could have any girl he wanted. They were lining up for him. I just talked with one of them recently and she informed me in no uncertain terms she was proud to have been of service to Dave and counted it an honor and would do it again if she had the chance. She is now 3 times divorced.
Dave was in full swing with this while still in HB, still in high school.

Tit 1:6  If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

You can do your own Greek studies but the word riot could not be applied to young children, it would only be appropriate to apply it to young men capable of debauchery and gross sexual immortality.

Luk_15:13  And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

This was the prodigal son.

Luk 15:30  But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

His brother tells us what riotous living means.

My hero John Gill says:
Not accused of riot; or chargeable with sins of uncleanness and intemperance, with rioting and drunkenness, chambering and wantonness; or with such crimes as Eli's sons were guilty of, from which they were not restrained by their father, and therefore the priesthood was removed from the family: "or unruly" not subject, but disobedient to their parents; See Gill on 1Ti_3:4. See Gill on 1Ti_3:5


This fits DH to a tee.

 

[bgwilkinson]

1Ti 3:4  One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5  (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

He had lost his right to be a pastor as he could not rule his own house.

I think you will find considerable disagreement amongst reasonable and spiritual people on how to interpret/apply those verses. Many people suppose that includes adult children, and how they behave, and others only think that applies to minor children. If you take the latter position, he wasn't disqualified by Dave's actions at all. Curiously, though, most of those who take the former position find that the experiences of life lead them often to the latter position in time.

BTW, in reference to this, one of the things that Bro. Hyles did back then, in the midst of this that I so admire is directly related. Roger Voegtlin hurled fireballs at his  head for not keeping control of Dave, and said that Bro. Hyles should be out of the ministry. Yet Roger Voegtlin had adopted children who were guilty of similar kinds of things. Bro. Hyles knew that, and yet never hurled fireballs back at Roger Voegtlin. That kind of self control, and refusal to attack someone who is attacking you when you have the perfect ammunition is the type of thing that causes me, still, to believe in Bro. Hyles' basic integrity.

Yes Bro. Hyles started in on teaching that we are not to attack and he did not cut loose on RV.
I do not know his motives.
Yes I also believe in his basic integrity as a man and a Christian.
I love Bro. Hyles like my own father.
What he has done has grieved me greatly as I had believed that he would not lie. We have found him to be involved in many lies.

 

[qwerty]

Where are the demands for proof on this accusation?

  I learned that Vic N, was a liar, or a fake( liar) because I had watched him interact with Bro.Hyles, as if they were best friends, up til the day his wife caught him with a YOUNG lady.

This is an interesting point that few people ever discuss.

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain....

Proof will cost you a $1.99

 

[Just John]

I said I don't know if the relationship was actually physical. As many take great delight in pointing out, there isn't any physical proof. The very act of intimacy usually leaves no proof anyway. I don't at all doubt the affair. I choose to use the word affair, as Jack Hyles own daughter has, because it doesn't matter if this was physical or just overly intimate. The relationship existed. I don't know how anyone can doubt it. Judy Nischik Johnson's account of the lovey dovey phone calls, the door, the refusal to remove the door, the refusal to even acknowledge that the door existed later after the refusal to remove the door, the firing and absolute skewering of George Godfrey after he pleaded for Jack Hyles to switch Jennie's office or remove the door to avoid the appearance of evil. Sheesh, people....what reasonable man with his ministry under suspicion would have not done the reasonable thing and show some propriety and make it visible that no improper relationship exists? It would have been very easy to address the rumor by moving Jennie's office. Yet, no such action was taken. Instead, skewer any "rumor monger" that dared look.

About this same period of time an assistant pastor who was also a favorite teaching pastor at my church was fired for having an "emotional affair" with a woman in the church. There was no evidence of actual physical intimacy but the emotional intimacy and improper contact between the two could not be denied. The fired pastor asked for and received permission to speak to the congregation, apologized and asked for forgiveness. Fortunately it did not leave a stain on a young church. Is the "act" all that matters?

What was going on, purportedly, between Sumner and Hyles that Sumner wrote what he did? I'm sure Hyles gave a reason for why Sumner did it.

 

[Norefund]

I have two different friends that had spouses that had emotional affairs. Apparently, more than half of all divorces today have an internet or Facebook component and that was the case with both of these. One of the couples reconciled and the other marriage failed. In both cases, there was never any physical contact. In fact, in both cases, there was never anything more than virtual contact (email, Facebook messages, etc.). In both cases, the pain was real and the feeling of betrayal was not unlike that of a physical affair.

Which of you would do that to your spouse? If you did, would you know it was wrong? Of course you would.

What baffles me is that JH was willing to sacrifice his family for his ministry. He was willing to sacrifice scores of teenage girls whom his soon churned through for his ministry. He was willing to lie for his ministry. But he wasn't willing to make even the slightest move to insure that no appearance of evil existed when it came to Jennie.

Another thing I had difficulty understanding, mostly because I'm so shallow I guess. Jennie was not attractive. Beverly had far more physical beauty, in my opinion. I once discussed this with my wife and she enlightened me that in every affair she knew of, the other woman was always less attractive than the spouse. She named a few and she was right. Go figure.

I said I don't know if the relationship was actually physical. As many take great delight in pointing out, there isn't any physical proof. The very act of intimacy usually leaves no proof anyway. I don't at all doubt the affair. I choose to use the word affair, as Jack Hyles own daughter has, because it doesn't matter if this was physical or just overly intimate. The relationship existed. I don't know how anyone can doubt it. Judy Nischik Johnson's account of the lovey dovey phone calls, the door, the refusal to remove the door, the refusal to even acknowledge that the door existed later after the refusal to remove the door, the firing and absolute skewering of George Godfrey after he pleaded for Jack Hyles to switch Jennie's office or remove the door to avoid the appearance of evil. Sheesh, people....what reasonable man with his ministry under suspicion would have not done the reasonable thing and show some propriety and make it visible that no improper relationship exists? It would have been very easy to address the rumor by moving Jennie's office. Yet, no such action was taken. Instead, skewer any "rumor monger" that dared look.

About this same period of time an assistant pastor who was also a favorite teaching pastor at my church was fired for having an "emotional affair" with a woman in the church. There was no evidence of actual physical intimacy but the emotional intimacy and improper contact between the two could not be denied. The fired pastor asked for and received permission to speak to the congregation, apologized and asked for forgiveness. Fortunately it did not leave a stain on a young church. Is the "act" all that matters?

What was going on, purportedly, between Sumner and Hyles that Sumner wrote what he did? I'm sure Hyles gave a reason for why Sumner did it.

 

[Norefund]

I nominate this for Post of the Day even if it is at my expense.

Proof will cost you a $1.99

 

[Boomer]

I don't know whether or not Hyles had an affair. I know nothing about that firsthand. I always had two big problems with Jack Hyles.

1.  He was a chronic liar. He embellished stories in his sermons. He lied constantly for years about his son.
    When he would talk about how many sermons he preached, he inflated the numbers so much that it             
    was just an insult to our intelligence. It is beyond belief for me that thousands of good and honest 
    preachers followed him when he wasn't even a basically honest man. The whole situation reminds me
    of many fans of Bill Clinton who didn't care that he lied to them because he was so good at it.

2.  He hollered and yelled about the importance of the Bible, but seldom used it in his sermons. Actions
    speak louder than words in that case.

Adulterer? I don't know. Chronic liar and basically dishonest man? I believe he was (at least in the latter years of his life).

 

[Evelyn]

You are very perceptive. That is exactly why we kept quiet. We did not want to hurt Bro. Hyles ministry.

I realize people can become twisted in their thinking.  I was not referring to the average blindly loyal follower.  We are talking about a man who supposedly knew his wife was doing who knows what with another guy.  He continues to promote and serve with the guy for multiple years.  And we are suppose to believe he let it all go on so that he would not hurt Dr. Hyles' ministry?

Raider, in the church my husband and I left, one of the prominent ($$ givers) men in our church discovered that his wife was "involved" with a single man in the church.  The woman is the church pianist and teaches in the Christian School.  The woman decided she wanted a divorce in order to be with the younger man.  Our pastor thought the sun and moon hung on the woman pianist, and somehow, even after being told by staff members that she was involved with the guy, our pastor twisted the whole thing in his mind to say that it was the HUSBAND who was the bad one and wanted the divorce. 

Now, the husband still wanted to attend church at the church.  He didn't feel it was fair to have to leave his wife AND his church.  Understand, this is the church where you didn't leave and remain in God's will.  It was frequently taught that if you left that church, God would kill your children in retaliation - yes, stated from the pulpit with an example of a dead child of folks who were no longer attending the church.  So, yeah, the husband didn't want to leave the church and have nowhere else to go.

Now we get to the good part.  The pastor told the husband that he could stay and go to the church - even after the wife divorced him - IF HE PROMISED TO SIT BY HIS EX-WIFE IN CHURCH SO THAT THE CHURCH MEMBERS WOULDN'T KNOW THEY'D GOTTEN DIVORCED.  AND HE DID IT!!!!  He sat by her in church EVEN AFTER the divorce in order to make sure it didn't cause souls to not be saved.  About a year later, his job moved him.  When that happened, the church was told that HE had divorced HER/left her, and guess where she is?  Still playing the piano for church and teaching in the Christian School.

How messed up is all that?  I am still friends with them both, but man, that was one screwed up situation. lol

 

[Evelyn]

I am a graduate of HAC.
My views are basically identical to Tom Brennan.

I have come to these conclusions independently but based on the same sources. If you search the internet with an open mind those are the conclusions you will reach. (Vic and Linda aren't credible, Voyle is credible, Hyles' staff is largely not credible, etc.)

I'm curious - and just adding to the discussion - since you hold Voyle credible, what do you do with the idea that Voyle holds Linda to be completely credible, as is evidenced by his latest blog entry, which is a favorable view of her and her book?  I'm not trying to be antagonistic, again, just adding to the discussion.

I think Voyle is making a mistake in judgment motivated by his desire for people to see that he has been right all along. In this, he reminds me a bit of the KJVO types who promote Gail Riplinger as a resource. They are both leaning on a broken reed, and one that will pierce their hand, IMHO.

Okay, thank you.  I was sincerely wondering if the "Voyle stamp of approval" would change things.

 

[Evelyn]

There is a huge difference in being very close acquaintance and physical intimacy.  Can anyone produce a picture of this mysterious door?  Did JN used to work in the waiting room or something?

There are several photos posted in the old FFF - one of Dr. Hyles and Dr. Evans talking in the office.  The door is in the center of the picture.  Additionally, the cover of the music sheet "Come Boldly" has a HUGE photo of Dr. Hyles kneeling at the sofa in his office, one hand on his head, one knee propped up, and directly behind him is the door.  It was paneling, just like the paneling on the walls, but you can clearly see the outline, the hinges, and the door knob.

 

 

[Evelyn]

There is a huge difference in being very close acquaintance and physical intimacy.  Can anyone produce a picture of this mysterious door?  Did JN used to work in the waiting room or something?

There are several photos posted in the old FFF - one of Dr. Hyles and Dr. Evans talking in the office.  The door is in the center of the picture.  Additionally, the cover of the music sheet "Come Boldly" has a HUGE photo of Dr. Hyles kneeling at the sofa in his office, one hand on his head, one knee propped up, and directly behind him is the door.  It was paneling, just like the paneling on the walls, but you can clearly see the outline, the hinges, and the door knob.

This is a photo from the old FFF:  http://www.fundamentalforums.com/hyles-anderson-college/103934-refresher-why-like-hyles.html

Scroll down to the post from Over-It and you'll see the photo.

 

[IFB X-Files]

Raider, in the church my husband and I left, one of the prominent ($$ givers) men in our church discovered that his wife was "involved" with a single man in the church.  The woman is the church pianist and teaches in the Christian School.  The woman decided she wanted a divorce in order to be with the younger man.  Our pastor thought the sun and moon hung on the woman pianist, and somehow, even after being told by staff members that she was involved with the guy, our pastor twisted the whole thing in his mind to say that it was the HUSBAND who was the bad one and wanted the divorce. 

Now, the husband still wanted to attend church at the church.  He didn't feel it was fair to have to leave his wife AND his church.  Understand, this is the church where you didn't leave and remain in God's will.  It was frequently taught that if you left that church, God would kill your children in retaliation - yes, stated from the pulpit with an example of a dead child of folks who were no longer attending the church.  So, yeah, the husband didn't want to leave the church and have nowhere else to go.

Now we get to the good part.  The pastor told the husband that he could stay and go to the church - even after the wife divorced him - IF HE PROMISED TO SIT BY HIS EX-WIFE IN CHURCH SO THAT THE CHURCH MEMBERS WOULDN'T KNOW THEY'D GOTTEN DIVORCED.  AND HE DID IT!!!!  He sat by her in church EVEN AFTER the divorce in order to make sure it didn't cause souls to not be saved.  About a year later, his job moved him.  When that happened, the church was told that HE had divorced HER/left her, and guess where she is?  Still playing the piano for church and teaching in the Christian School.

How messed up is all that?  I am still friends with them both, but man, that was one screwed up situation. lol

Great story.  I worked for a pastor who knew his deacon was having an affair and still let him deac.  The man's sweet wife was killed in a tragic accident and shortly after that the deacon made his affair public and even brought the woman to church!  The pastor said nothing.

There's another pastor I know who is down the road from me.  Small church.  Very small church with only (at that time) one loyal family.  The pastor was driving by where the wife worked and saw her outside in the arms of another man.  The pastor and his wife met with the wife and confronted her but never told her husband!  These folks stayed serving at this church for over a year!  Can you imagine!