So, what did you/do you believe?

[bgwilkinson]

During the last 10 years or so of his life here on earth he began to reevaluate everything he believed.
It was a subtle thing. He even got to the point where he talked himself into believing his dad was a saved man.
The list of changed beliefs is something someone should compile.

I remember him saying that about his father.  Wasn't there more to that story - a reason why he thought there was a possibility?

I do not remember the reasons he believed that.
What I do remember is how shocked we were to hear him say that his dad was now saved. He had a sermon on soul-winning that used his unsaved dead dad calling out from Hell as his text. I hope someone remembers the details for as the more people remember the more it triggers additional memories.

Now that I think about it, Cindy may have said something about it in her biography of Dr. Hyles.  I'll have to take a look.

You mentioned that during the last 10 years of his life he began to "reevaluate EVERYTHING he believed".  I think that is a bit of a bold statement.  I remember him changing his belief on the KJV.  I believe that was earlier than his last 10 years.  What other changes can you name?

Well in the 1996 Pastors' School the theme was The Body, The Blood and the Book. As he watch his ministry wain because of all the things that were happening he tried to give one last push for national relevance. We had exhausted the biggest attendance mime for our claim to fame we just were not drawing the crowds any more. We even removed all the pews behind the K beams and more of the extra chairs in the mezzanine to give the full house impression. We tried to have the most salvation decisions on a Sunday. We got some big numbers but fraud is too easy in this type of thing. We than went to having the largest number of baptisms. This once again is open to massive fraud. During this time I talked to several young people that were getting baptized multiple times, for what? Just so we could say we were the biggest for his dad's sake.

In 1996 he came out as a full blown KJVO, right down to saying that the KJV is the only Bible and all others are Devil's bibles just like the Roman Catholics were saying about the Greek and Hebrew Bibles in the 1500's when they were Latin Vulgate only and Latin had been the World's language for a thousand years. Well that is attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the Devil which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
In his sermon he simulated the ripping up of a Devil's bible, he said don't worry it's just a song book. It was just a Soul Stirring Hymns. During his sermon he knew he was on shaky ground. He went all the way to claiming you could not be saved if you did not use a KJV Bible.

Next we had the Blood. He went into an elaborate demonstration of the the OT sacrifices, the passover etc. as he taught the eternal blood theory, (Ian Paisley, M.R. Dehaan) a bit of a take off on the Catholics literal interpretation of John 6 that they use for the Transubstantiation theory of the Mass where they believe you eat the body and drink the blood of Christ for salvation.
A bit like the Da Vinci Code and Holy Grail of Indiana Jones.

Next we had the Body. He redefined the Church. He had the definition so narrow that only FBCH was a real church everyone else just had a fake church. He said I have a church and you don't have a church. This method of redefinition allowed him to say he still had the biggest church in the world, which had long since ceased to be even remotely true.

 

[RAIDER]

Well in the 1996 Pastors' School the theme was The Body, The Blood and the Book. As he watch his ministry wain because of all the things that were happening he tried to give one last push for national relevance. We had exhausted the biggest attendance mime for our claim to fame we just were not drawing the crowds any more. We even removed all the pews behind the K beams and more of the extra chairs in the mezzanine to give the full house impression. We tried to have the most salvation decisions on a Sunday. We got some big numbers but fraud is too easy in this type of thing. We than went to having the largest number of baptisms. This once again is open to massive fraud. During this time I talked to several young people that were getting baptized multiple times, for what? Just so we could say we were the biggest for his dad's sake.

There is no doubt that Dr. Hyles was wrapped up in the "numbers game".  This was nothing new during his last 10 years.  He did not change his "belief".  When I was a HAC student in the early '80s there were several times that we worked for massive big days.

I don't know what the attendance of FBCH was when Dr. Hyles passed away.  I do not believe Jack Schaap's number of 5000.  When Schaap wasn't filling up the new auditorium he began to use that to try and convince people what a great job he was doing.  I do believe that the attendance was not what it was in the heyday.  Many churches experienced that in the '90s.  As far as removing some pews and chairs - that's what we were taught to do in our churches.

I do agree with you that a big day of that magnitude allows for inaccurate numbers.  I don't think there was any way to prove whether the numbers were accurate or not.  I do not believe Dr. Hyles purposely gave dishonest numbers.  I do know there is a possibility of ministry leaders blowing up their numbers for "status" sake.  All Dr. Hyles had to go by were the numbers given to him.  I can remember a couple of times during my HAC days when we aimed for a goal and came up short.  The numbers were not inflated to beat the goal. 

 

[RAIDER]

In 1996 he came out as a full blown KJVO, right down to saying that the KJV is the only Bible and all others are Devil's bibles just like the Roman Catholics were saying about the Greek and Hebrew Bibles in the 1500's when they were Latin Vulgate only and Latin had been the World's language for a thousand years. Well that is attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the Devil which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
In his sermon he simulated the ripping up of a Devil's bible, he said don't worry it's just a song book. It was just a Soul Stirring Hymns. During his sermon he knew he was on shaky ground. He went all the way to claiming you could not be saved if you did not use a KJV Bible.

Dr. Hyles came out strong for the KJV long before 1996.  Yes, he changed his stance on this issue, but it was not during his last 10 years.  What year did he preach, "Logic Must Prove the KJB"?

You are correct about him claiming you had to be saved by using a KJV.  That was a dumb comment.  I believe he taught that before 1996.  Isn't that a chapter in his "Enemies of Soul Winning" book?

 

[RAIDER]

Next we had the Blood. He went into an elaborate demonstration of the the OT sacrifices, the passover etc. as he taught the eternal blood theory, (Ian Paisley, M.R. Dehaan) a bit of a take off on the Catholics literal interpretation of John 6 that they use for the Transubstantiation theory of the Mass where they believe you eat the body and drink the blood of Christ for salvation.
A bit like the Da Vinci Code and Holy Grail of Indiana Jones.

You are stretching things here. 

 

[IFB X-Files]

He went all the way to claiming you could not be saved if you did not use a KJV Bible.

You are correct about him claiming you had to be saved by using a KJV.  That was a dumb comment.  I believe he taught that before 1996.

Evangelist Allen Domelle still teaches that.  He wrote a booklet (I have a copy) that clearly states that.  I met him (that's when I bought the book) and he's a real nice guy.  Then I read the book.  We had an email conversation where he contradicted his own position.  Idiotic position that Hyles and I thnk Beebe pushed for some odd reason.

 

[RAIDER]

Next we had the Body. He redefined the Church. He had the definition so narrow that only FBCH was a real church everyone else just had a fake church. He said I have a church and you don't have a church. This method of redefinition allowed him to say he still had the biggest church in the world, which had long since ceased to be even remotely true.

I'm guessing you are referring to his book "The Church".  Again, you are stretching what Hyles said.  Would you agree that the Catholic Church is not a Biblical church?  If you agree with that statement you could say to a Catholic, "I have a church and you don't have a church".  Hyles was not saying that FBCH was the only church.

You also say Hyles believed that "ONLY FBCH was a real church (and) everyone else just had a fake church".  Come on, you know that it really stretching the truth.  It's a good thing Hyles didn't have you counting the crowd on a big day or the records would have really been set! 

 

[RAIDER]

You are correct about him claiming you had to be saved by using a KJV.  That was a dumb comment.  I believe he taught that before 1996.

Evangelist Allen Domelle still teaches that.  He wrote a booklet (I have a copy) that clearly states that.  I met him (that's when I bought the book) and he's a real nice guy.  Then I read the book.  We had an email conversation where he contradicted his own position.  Idiotic position that Hyles and I thnk Beebe pushed for some odd reason.

That one even had the Hyles' fans shaking their heads.  Of course, a true Hacker would go home at Christmas and preach it at his home church. 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=RAIDER]I'm guessing you are referring to his book "The Church"...[/quote]

I just skimmed through about half of that book. It is horrible.

But, no, he never claimed he had the only real church.

 

[Fresh Air]

Well in the 1996 Pastors' School the theme was The Body, The Blood and the Book. As he watch his ministry wain because of all the things that were happening he tried to give one last push for national relevance. We had exhausted the biggest attendance mime for our claim to fame we just were not drawing the crowds any more. We even removed all the pews behind the K beams and more of the extra chairs in the mezzanine to give the full house impression. We tried to have the most salvation decisions on a Sunday. We got some big numbers but fraud is too easy in this type of thing. We than went to having the largest number of baptisms. This once again is open to massive fraud. During this time I talked to several young people that were getting baptized multiple times, for what? Just so we could say we were the biggest for his dad's sake.

In 1996 he came out as a full blown KJVO, right down to saying that the KJV is the only Bible and all others are Devil's bibles just like the Roman Catholics were saying about the Greek and Hebrew Bibles in the 1500's when they were Latin Vulgate only and Latin had been the World's language for a thousand years. Well that is attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the Devil which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
In his sermon he simulated the ripping up of a Devil's bible, he said don't worry it's just a song book. It was just a Soul Stirring Hymns. During his sermon he knew he was on shaky ground. He went all the way to claiming you could not be saved if you did not use a KJV Bible.

Next we had the Blood. He went into an elaborate demonstration of the the OT sacrifices, the passover etc. as he taught the eternal blood theory, (Ian Paisley, M.R. Dehaan) a bit of a take off on the Catholics literal interpretation of John 6 that they use for the Transubstantiation theory of the Mass where they believe you eat the body and drink the blood of Christ for salvation.
A bit like the Da Vinci Code and Holy Grail of Indiana Jones.

Next we had the Body. He redefined the Church. He had the definition so narrow that only FBCH was a real church everyone else just had a fake church. He said I have a church and you don't have a church. This method of redefinition allowed him to say he still had the biggest church in the world, which had long since ceased to be even remotely true.

I don't have the time today, but I sure think somebody needs to find some. This list is so riddled with theological inaccuracies and aspersions as to simply beg to be corrected. But just your luck; it won't be me.

 

[RAIDER]

Well in the 1996 Pastors' School the theme was The Body, The Blood and the Book. As he watch his ministry wain because of all the things that were happening he tried to give one last push for national relevance. We had exhausted the biggest attendance mime for our claim to fame we just were not drawing the crowds any more. We even removed all the pews behind the K beams and more of the extra chairs in the mezzanine to give the full house impression. We tried to have the most salvation decisions on a Sunday. We got some big numbers but fraud is too easy in this type of thing. We than went to having the largest number of baptisms. This once again is open to massive fraud. During this time I talked to several young people that were getting baptized multiple times, for what? Just so we could say we were the biggest for his dad's sake.

In 1996 he came out as a full blown KJVO, right down to saying that the KJV is the only Bible and all others are Devil's bibles just like the Roman Catholics were saying about the Greek and Hebrew Bibles in the 1500's when they were Latin Vulgate only and Latin had been the World's language for a thousand years. Well that is attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the Devil which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
In his sermon he simulated the ripping up of a Devil's bible, he said don't worry it's just a song book. It was just a Soul Stirring Hymns. During his sermon he knew he was on shaky ground. He went all the way to claiming you could not be saved if you did not use a KJV Bible.

Next we had the Blood. He went into an elaborate demonstration of the the OT sacrifices, the passover etc. as he taught the eternal blood theory, (Ian Paisley, M.R. Dehaan) a bit of a take off on the Catholics literal interpretation of John 6 that they use for the Transubstantiation theory of the Mass where they believe you eat the body and drink the blood of Christ for salvation.
A bit like the Da Vinci Code and Holy Grail of Indiana Jones.

Next we had the Body. He redefined the Church. He had the definition so narrow that only FBCH was a real church everyone else just had a fake church. He said I have a church and you don't have a church. This method of redefinition allowed him to say he still had the biggest church in the world, which had long since ceased to be even remotely true.

I don't have the time today, but I sure think somebody needs to find some. This list is so riddled with theological inaccuracies and aspersions as to simply beg to be corrected. But just your luck; it won't be me.

I did my best! 

 

[Fresh Air]

I did my best! 

What kind of a weak, penny ante, lily livered, pink tea and lemonade line is that? Brother, you just need a find a way to get the job done!

<hitting the bus roof with my big class ring>

 

[Boomer]

I did my best! 

What kind of a weak, penny ante, lily livered, pink tea and lemonade line is that? Brother, you just need a find a way to get the job done!

<hitting the bus roof with my big class ring>

That's Weeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaakkkkk, Brennan! Hitting the bus roof with your class ring? You're not going to get his attention until you slam on that bus roof with BOTH HANDS!   

 

[RAIDER]

I did my best! 

What kind of a weak, penny ante, lily livered, pink tea and lemonade line is that? Brother, you just need a find a way to get the job done!

<hitting the bus roof with my big class ring>

"Faithful are the wounds of a friend" 

I actually tried to be kind (with a couple bits of sarcasm).

 

[Fresh Air]

That's Weeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaakkkkk, Brennan! Hitting the bus roof with your class ring? You're not going to get his attention until you slam on that bus roof with BOTH HANDS!   

I couldn't use two hands. I had the other one pointed straight at him in case the Holy Spirit needed a bit of help in applying the message...

 

[Boomer]

That's Weeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaakkkkk, Brennan! Hitting the bus roof with your class ring? You're not going to get his attention until you slam on that bus roof with BOTH HANDS!   

I couldn't use two hands. I had the other one pointed straight at him in case the Holy Spirit needed a bit of help in applying the message...

You could have used both hands if you had the courage to NAME NAMES in your sermon instead of "pointing"...

 

[RAIDER]

I did my best! 

What kind of a weak, penny ante, lily livered, pink tea and lemonade line is that? Brother, you just need a find a way to get the job done!

<hitting the bus roof with my big class ring>

That's Weeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaakkkkk, Brennan! Hitting the bus roof with your class ring? You're not going to get his attention until you slam on that bus roof with BOTH HANDS!   

A true Hacker would look for a broom and hit the ceiling with the handle!  As much as I would like to say I'm kidding, I am not.

 

[bgwilkinson]

You will not find all the things Bro. Hyles claimed at the 1996 Pastors's School in one of his books. My point is that this was the peak of his IFBxxx beliefs and pronouncements.
He was comparing other bible believing churches to FBCH and if you did not agree on all the IFBxxx then you did not have a true church. He got a lot of blow back from the 1996 Pastors' School and he walked back many of the extreme things he preached in those three sermons. You can't be saved without a KJV is in Enemies of Soul Winning. He could not easily walk that back. I believe in 1996 he knew he was not long on this earth. It was his last great push for national relevance.

 

[Fresh Air]

A true Hacker would look for a broom and hit the ceiling with the handle!  As much as I would like to say I'm kidding, I am not.

See. This is precisely why my generation of Hackers was superior to yours. On our night bus we actually hit people, not roofs, with the brooms while preaching.

Seriously.

 

[RAIDER]

A true Hacker would look for a broom and hit the ceiling with the handle!  As much as I would like to say I'm kidding, I am not.

See. This is precisely why my generation of Hackers was superior to yours. On our night bus we actually hit people, not roofs, with the brooms while preaching.

Seriously.

I feel so backslidden. 

 

[Fresh Air]

You will not find all the things Bro. Hyles claimed at the 1996 Pastors's School in one of his books.

Um, I've got the book sitting on my shelf behind me - The Blood, the Book, and the Body...