Registered sex offenders and church attendance.

[ALAYMAN]

Some people here feel that certain crimes are worthy of death with no chance of at least, of God redeeming them. We are all worthy of death and hell for our own sins against God, some people think theirs are not that bad, I guess.

Do you believe the civil government has a right to bear the sword (the death penalty)?

Could you point to those people who think their sins aren't that bad?

 

[Recovering IFB]

Some people here feel that certain crimes are worthy of death with no chance of at least, of God redeeming them. We are all worthy of death and hell for our own sins against God, some people think theirs are not that bad, I guess.

Do you believe the civil government has a right to bear the sword (the death penalty)?

Could you point to those people who think their sins aren't that bad?

Thats the governments job, let them handle that. Is is the governments job to dispense grace and pardon sins?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Thats the governments job, let them handle that.

That was sort of vague.  So, do you believe that some people are worthy of death by the government's hand?

And you made the claim that people in this thread thought their sins weren't that bad, but ignored the request to substantiate it with evidence.  Let's try again.  Could you point to those people who think their sins aren't that bad?

Is it the governments job to dispense grace and pardon sins?

Did I say it was?

 

[lnf]

Some people here feel that certain crimes are worthy of death with no chance of at least, of God redeeming them. We are all worthy of death and hell for our own sins against God, some people think theirs are not that bad, I guess.

Do you believe the civil government has a right to bear the sword (the death penalty)?

Could you point to those people who think their sins aren't that bad?

Thats the governments job, let them handle that. Is is the governments job to dispense grace and pardon sins?

I think we sometimes get this mixed up.  There are two justice systems...earthly and heavenly.  A death sentence on earth does not necessarily equate to a death sentence in Heaven.  Consider the Bema Seat  and the White Throne.

 

[Biker]

I think the conditions around the registration on the sex offenders list needs to be investigated as well.  Not all sex offenders are created equal.  The ones who abuse young children or sexually assault ANYONE, these are the ones who need to have these fences placed on them.
There are others who find themselves on the sex offenders list merely because "she TOLD me she was 18!"  If that indeed is the fact, such knuckleheads need a little wall-to-wall counseling, but can likely be trusted in the fellowship of the church.  (Check it out for sure though, as has been mentioned, sex offenders can be very manipulative.)

I completely agree. We've had just two attend so far but we've had resources to thoroughly check them out.
I view every man -and- woman who enters our door as a possible perpetrator. We've taught the Parents need to have the children in view at all times. My fear is a child may be violated off the grounds. Because we allowed "so and so" to attend church that he or she, is an ok person. Hence why they need to be told, one on one (depending upon age). They are not allowed to speak to the kids, ever. Potlucks are off limits, as are kid parties. They can sit thru services and enjoy fellowship in private homes during the adult bible studies.  This is how we handled the only two perps who attended (one still does)

But those questions need to be asked before the fact, not after the offender's been there awhile.  Once that disclosure has been made, there needs to be some IMMEDIATE action taken for the protection of the congregation, on a case by case basis.

I agree. We have  one police officer, one probation officer, and one retired CPS worker (a former co-worker of mine). A few former foster parents.  Our chuch is not large. If we let them loose, they may go down the street to any of the other churches unprepared to deal with them. Only one other church has a ministry geared towards such offenders, lumped in with alcoholics and drug addicts. Their recidivism rate is very very low. It's time tested, this church has been handling these folks for about 25 years now. I worked as a CPS Worker for a little over a year, and this church is where the mandatory classes are held.

Case in point, my family joined a small church. (Less than 20 people) One of the elders had his shirt sleeves rolled up and had a tattoo of a naked woman.  I commented to the pastor that perhaps this guy should wear long sleeves in church.  The pastor responded in such a way that this guy's tattoos were the least of his problems.
I said, "What do you mean?" at which point the pastor's eyes got real big and said, "Nobody told you guys?"
I said, "No."
He said, "Elder so-and-so is on the sex offender registry for fondling his granddaughter.  That's why I try to shut him down when he makes prayer requests for the people in his 'support group'.  As it is, he's not allowed to work with the kids."

Wow. A man deliberately rolled up his sleeves to expose lewd obscenities on his body via a tattoo? In church of all places. I would have walked him out the door. Maybe contacting the Local Police to be prepared outside for when the time comes someone must be escorted outside.  And he was a known pedophile to boot...unbelievable.

That was the Sunday we stopped making our daughter go to church with us, while we held out to support the pastor until the church finally imploded and closed its doors a couple of months later...As it was, my daughter knew the victim, having inherited her uniform when she joined the color guard in high school.

I am glad you didn't make her attend. I wouldn't have supported such a Pastor but it's all in the Past. I'd assume this Pastor is just as dangerous as the pervert with the porn tattoo. Glad to hear you all aren't attending there, you seem very wise.

 

[Recovering IFB]

Thats the governments job, let them handle that.

That was sort of vague.  So, do you believe that some people are worthy of death by the government's hand?
[/quote]

No, I think the government should abolish the death penalty. I am not bloodthirsty enough anymore in my life to see anyone put to death for their crimes. God doesn't rejoice in it, I don't see why fellow believers get excited by it.

And you made the claim that people in this thread thought their sins weren't that bad, but ignored the request to substantiate it with evidence.  Let's try again.  Could you point to those people who think their sins aren't that bad?

Matthew 18:23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

I believe, from what has been posted some people has forgotten from what they have been saved from. Have they come out and said it? no. Forgiveness should be on the forefront of our minds because we all have sinned against a Holy Godand He has shown us great mercy, I think we all forget that sometimes, myself included. As I have posted, I have dealt with this for 33 years and still am learning from it. Mercy and forgiveness is hard, but it is something I believe everybody should be known for.
As I have stated from my first post, they should be monitored, but allowed to fellowship. I think it is critical. But others here seem to not want that. Fellowship will keep them accountable. If they truly are repentfull, they would want that.

 

[Biker]

I believe, from what has been posted some people has forgotten from what they have been saved from. Have they come out and said it? no. Forgiveness should be on the forefront of our minds because we all have sinned against a Holy Godand He has shown us great mercy, I think we all forget that sometimes, myself included. As I have posted, I have dealt with this for 33 years and still am learning from it. Mercy and forgiveness is hard, but it is something I believe everybody should be known for.
As I have stated from my first post, they should be monitored, but allowed to fellowship. I think it is critical. But others here seem to not want that. Fellowship will keep them accountable. If they truly are repentfull, they would want that.

Wise words. God uses us as instruments in their salvation. Fellowship + church services while being prudent upon safety issues is vital.

This is not directed to a particular person... consider rabid human beings running around doing the unspeakable to our most vulnerable. Wouldn't we want to do our best to stop this? As Christians we know the cure. Christ didn't view us too depraved to be saved. He spread the Great Commission without excluding any particular group. He didn't avoid anyone. Can't we spread the cure (good news) for their illness...if not for the sake of future victims? just a thought


Romans 8:15 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

2 Cor 5:19 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.



.

 

[kaba]

I have close family members that work with perverts in prison, rarely can they reform. I know they need Christ. But a public service with children and women is not a good place for them to be. Maybe Bible studies with other perverts!

 

[Recovering IFB]

I have close family members that work with perverts in prison, rarely can they reform. I know they need Christ. But a public service with children and women is not a good place for them to be. Maybe Bible studies with other perverts!

God can change the most vile offender, can't He? Don't put God in a box that way.
Alayman, here is one example you were looking for.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Here is a good, no axe to grind, article on the subject:
http://www.churchsafety.com/discussion/askourexperts/richardrhammar/q14.html

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Some people here feel that certain crimes are worthy of death with no chance of at least, of God redeeming them. We are all worthy of death and hell for our own sins against God, some people think theirs are not that bad, I guess.

Do you believe the civil government has a right to bear the sword (the death penalty)?

Could you point to those people who think their sins aren't that bad?

Thats the governments job, let them handle that. Is is the governments job to dispense grace and pardon sins?

God pardons sin and dispenses grace....the church can practice forgiveness and grace, but...
I don't think grace and forgiveness mean forgive and forget....Adam was forgiven, but wasn't allowed back into the Garden.
Samson was forgiven but lost his eyesight...and his life.
Lot was forgiven but lost his family...in more than one way.

 

[ALAYMAN]

No, I think the government should abolish the death penalty. I am not bloodthirsty enough anymore in my life to see anyone put to death for their crimes. God doesn't rejoice in it, I don't see why fellow believers get excited by it.

So Christians who believe that, as an astute comment in my PM box said, "not only <the government has> a right to bear the sword... but an obligation", you think that they are "bloodthirsty"?  Is God "bloodthirsty" for commanding the restraint of evil by the state to include the death penalty (Rom 13)?

[quote author=Recovering IFB]

Matthew 18:23 ...

I believe, from what has been posted some people has forgotten from what they have been saved from. Have they come out and said it? no. Forgiveness should be on the forefront of our minds because we all have sinned against a Holy Godand He has shown us great mercy, I think we all forget that sometimes, myself included. As I have posted, I have dealt with this for 33 years and still am learning from it. Mercy and forgiveness is hard, but it is something I believe everybody should be known for.
As I have stated from my first post, they should be monitored, but allowed to fellowship. I think it is critical. But others here seem to not want that. Fellowship will keep them accountable. If they truly are repentfull, they would want that.
[/quote]

So you believe that forgiveness is not extended when a church offers specific tailored worship services for the sex offender?

 

[Biker]

Just curious... what would you all do if Jack Schapp showed up to your church service?
We haven't had any this depraved. The 24 yr old perp we have now messed with a 16 yr old girl, he's quite immature for his age.

 

[kaba]

I have close family members that work with perverts in prison, rarely can they reform. I know they need Christ. But a public service with children and women is not a good place for them to be. Maybe Bible studies with other perverts!

God can change the most vile offender, can't He? Don't put God in a box that way.
Alayman, here is one example you were looking for.

Rarely can thay be reformed I said, there is always the chance of God healing.....just not going to put my children in their presence to find out!

I didn't put God in a box

 

[freelance_christian]

Here is a good, no axe to grind, article on the subject:
http://www.churchsafety.com/discussion/askourexperts/richardrhammar/q14.html

Seems to me to be a fair and balanced approach. No blanket exclusion and no blanket acceptance.

 

[Recovering IFB]

So Christians who believe that, as an astute comment in my PM box said, "not only <the government has> a right to bear the sword... but an obligation", you think that they are "bloodthirsty"?  Is God "bloodthirsty" for commanding the restraint of evil by the state to include the death penalty (Rom 13)?

God handing out judgement and believers cheering for the death of those under judgement are two different things, remember God takes no pleasure in it.

So you believe that forgiveness is not extended when a church offers specific tailored worship services for the sex offender?

As much as a specific tailored worship service for the people who struggle with gluttony, at a baptist church, with  fellowship meal afterwards.
You fail to see that your very sins, are the same sins, as "those perverts", that nailed Our Lord to a cross.

 

[Recovering IFB]

Rarely can thay be reformed I said, there is always the chance of God healing.....just not going to put my children in their presence to find out!

I didn't put God in a box

with God, all things are possible

 

[kaba]

I'm still not putting God in a box!! I know God can change lives. The pervert has to want to change. My personal family's experience working with perverts.....they don't want to change

 

[ALAYMAN]

God handing out judgement and believers cheering for the death of those under judgement are two different things, remember God takes no pleasure in it.

Well, that really didn't answer the question.  Is God "bloodthirsty" for commanding the ministers of the state to bear the sword (kill evil doers) in order to restrain evil?

And could you point to anyplace in this thread where people have been gleeful or taken pleasure in the death of the wicked?

[quote author=Recovering IFB]
As much as a specific tailored worship service for the people who struggle with gluttony, at a baptist church, with  fellowship meal afterwards.
You fail to see that your very sins, are the same sins, as "those perverts", that nailed Our Lord to a cross.
[/quote]

Well, the fact that you think that child rape is the same as overeating at a potluck dinner in terms of the human consequences and risk/effects shows more than you should care about your inability to properly reason.  By your rationale, the pastor who cuckolds his flock like Davey Boy Hyles should be "forgiven" and restored to the pastorate "70 X 7".

 

[rsc2a]

God handing out judgement and believers cheering for the death of those under judgement are two different things, remember God takes no pleasure in it.

Well, that really didn't answer the question.  Is God "bloodthirsty" for commanding the ministers of the state to bear the sword (kill evil doers) in order to restrain evil?

And could you point to anyplace in this thread where people have been gleeful or taken pleasure in the death of the wicked?

I could point to plenty of places on this forum where people are quite gleeful about the death of of the wicked. I could point to places on this very thread where people have called for the torture of the wicked.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Well, the fact that you think that child rape is the same as overeating at a potluck dinner in terms of the human consequences and risk/effects shows more than you should care about your inability to properly reason. [/quote]

I didn't see where he said this at all. But, we can play by your rules...where does the Bible say we should exclude anyone from fellowship for specific sins?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]By your rationale, the pastor who cuckolds his flock like Davey Boy Hyles should be "forgiven" and restored to the pastorate "70 X 7".[/quote]

forgiveness ≠ given a pulpit