Registered sex offenders and church attendance.

kaba said:
The percentage of those redeemed is very small-can be done, but very small. And again, consequence for your sin is no longer around children. Why is that so hard to accept.
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Of course the percentage is small.  They are excluded from hearing and seeing the Gospel lived out in a community of believers.
 
They hear plenty of gospel inside the prison from the Chaplains and volunteers to repent. Once out, they can find places to worship, but yet stay away from children. 
 
kaba said:
They hear plenty of gospel inside the prison from the Chaplains and volunteers to repent. Once out, they can find places to worship, but yet stay away from children.
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I agree with you kaba they don't deserve to be among the rest of us sinners.  :)
 
Obviously Graceandtruth you are a much better Christian than I, and have a more forgiving heart!  I just choose not to sacrifice my children nor anyone elses child!

When you break the law, you have to be punished. A Child molester is not allowed by law to be around children-why is that so hard to accept. I just want the Child molester to follow the law. But then the Bible does mention about having a mill stone around your neck if you hurt a child so....... and the Bible does also talk about those that have hardened their hearts.

 
After all of the wisdom imparted on this thread, I feel much better about our decision to ask the gentleman to exclude himself from our services!

Thanks!  :)
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
After all of the wisdom imparted on this thread, I feel much better about our decision to ask the gentleman to exclude himself from our services!

Thanks!  :)
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Whatever
 
kaba said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
After all of the wisdom imparted on this thread, I feel much better about our decision to ask the gentleman to exclude himself from our services!

Thanks!  :)
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Whatever
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Lest my quote be misunderstood, what I meant to convey was that I think we made the right decision, based on the particular person, charges and attitude we had to deal with.

I certainly understand the position of those advocating offenders be allowed to attend under conditions, but would say I think they are somewhat naive in their estimation of sex offenders and the response of the other church members involved. But, every church must make a prayerful, educated decision based on the facts and the individuals involved. A one size fits all policy won't work here.
 
Your quote was misunderstood. I just get the feeling of self-righteousness from graceandtruth and took your post that way as well, I'm sorry.
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
I certainly understand the position of those advocating offenders be allowed to attend under conditions, but would say I think they are somewhat naive in their estimation of sex offenders and the response of the other church members involved. But, every church must make a prayerful, educated decision based on the facts and the individuals involved. A one size fits all policy won't work here.
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Well stated.
Thank you for not tossing out false accusations that others are advocating putting children in harms way

 
kaba said:
Obviously Graceandtruth you are a much better Christian than I, and have a more forgiving heart!  I just choose not to sacrifice my children nor anyone elses child!

When you break the law, you have to be punished. A Child molester is not allowed by law to be around children-why is that so hard to accept. I just want the Child molester to follow the law. But then the Bible does mention about having a mill stone around your neck if you hurt a child so....... and the Bible does also talk about those that have hardened their hearts.
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No problem Kaba.  I am not more Christian than you or anyone else.  My wife and I have 17 children and one on the way so I am in no way unaware or unconcerned about dangers to children.  I am simply aware that my children are in many other public settings where previous child molesters who have not been redeemed are located like sporting events, shopping malls, and entertainment venues.  It is OUR responsibility to safeguard our children and I do not expect anyone or any group to carry that out for me. 

I simply do not see any biblical grounds for creating a group of second-class Christians based on their previous sins.  I personally feel that the sin of racism is extremely damaging and has the ability to do severe damage to all areas of life for people subjected to it.  I have seen it and I personally live with the results of this sin.  If I would exclude anyone from the assembly it would be a repentant racist.  I see everyday the damage racism has done and continues to do to families, including little children.  Now you may say it would be ridiculous to exclude people from the congregation for such a thing but I stand on firm biblical ground.  Scripture is clear if a person does not love their brother then the love of the Father is not in them and the proof that we have passed from death to life is that we love the brethren.

I believe that Scripture makes it clear that salvation changes EVERYTHING.  I do not for a moment think that pedophiles were not in existence in the 1st century yet Scripture does not indicate they are to be excluded from the congregation.  I also do not think that their exclusion is practical in a large congregation because no one knows who they are.  To attend a church of 500 people and assume that no one in the congregation on any given day is a sex offender is to bury one's head in the sand.  To arbitrarily choose to exclude people from the congregation for one sin even after they have repented of the sin makes us appear to be inconsistent and elitists and almost seems to say "Your sin is worse than my sin".  I do not think my stance is based on naivety but on a firm faith in the character of God.  God says we are new creatures as a result of salvation and God's loves my children more than I do.  I really believe that salvation makes us different people because that is what Scripture says and there is no indication in Scripture that this does not apply to pedophiles or any other sinner.

Again I want to say that I understand that everyone is not the same.  Everyone does not respond to experiences the same way.  I have no problem with those who disagree with me I was just looking for solid biblical ground to stand on if I ever had to explain this to someone. 

Just saw your last quote Kaba.  There is no self-righteousness in my post.  Sorry if that is the way that it came across.  Actually I believe that I am no different from anyone else and if God has reconciled and restored me through the Gospel I see no reason why he only forgives others and does not reconcile and restore them as well because of the sin they committed.
 
Are two identities allowed here?

Would someone go as far as to falsely accuse others saying they put children in harms way while being the Associate Pastor of a church which produced two child molesters? (A Youth Pastor and Former Sunday School Teacher)

Now that would be un-frickin-believable...
 
aleshanee said:
but you are not bringing them around me...  or any children it might be in my power to protect.... why is that so hard to accept or understand?....why is so important for some of you... that you be allowed to shove these people, who ruined our lives, back into our faces ....and put us at risk again?.... .  have you really considered anything we have been saying here?.. ....  [/font][/size][/color]
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I agree.
I haven't seen anyone advocate for such (but maybe I've missed it). The church could add another service, if need be
 
aleshanee said:
graceandtruth said:
kaba said:
They hear plenty of gospel inside the prison from the Chaplains and volunteers to repent. Once out, they can find places to worship, but yet stay away from children.
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I agree with you kaba they don't deserve to be among the rest of us sinners.  :)
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you can take them with you anywhere you want.....lead them to salvation...  teach them... disciple them...  take them to your own church and then out to lunch afterwards.... and you can even show them the meaning of true grace by inviting a convicted thief to go along with you.. . then leaving your wallet out on the table in front of them while you excuse yourself to the restroom... ... 

but you are not bringing them around me...  or any children it might be in my power to protect.... why is that so hard to accept or understand?....why is so important for some of you... that you be allowed to shove these people, who ruined our lives, back into our faces ....and put us at risk again?.... .  have you really considered anything we have been saying here?.. .... 
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I hear you loud and clearly.  I am aware of your story and that is why I have not responded directly to any of your posts.  I understand that you feel very strongly about this issue and I do not say your feelings are wrong or unwarranted.  You are perfectly within your rights to protect yourself and your loved ones from what you see as a danger.  I apologize if that is what you have gotten from my posts.

 
graceandtruth said:
T-Bone said:
graceandtruth said:
T-Bone said:
This is almost comical if it weren't so sadly pathetic.  All these pushing for full inclusion of the pedophile in the church because they can be forgiven (which I agree they can) are willing to put other people's children in harms way to prove they are so gracious & forgiving (I believe they miss understand the meaning of these in this case). You guys don't really believe what you are putting forth here, because not a one of you would put your child or grandchild in a room with a convicted pedophile and let them spend the day with them.  If you say you would you are not being truthful.  And if you really would do that, then you are not qualified or worthy to have your children.

You can forgive without being stupid...so stop being stupid with other people's children!
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So what other sins does the New Creature Clause not apply to?  I don't think people are being stupid but they may be trying to be consistent.

The reality is that in a church of 200-300 people it should be no problem keeping tabs on an individual that has been convicted of pedophilia .  When I say pedophilia I am not referencing a 19 year old and a 16 year old since this happens all the time in our neighborhood schools.  In a church larger then that this whole argument is meaningless.  There is no way to track or identify every person who comes through the doors of a church of 1000 or even 500 people.  As long as they do not seek membership or a ministry position that requires background checks they could continue to attend unnoticed forever. 

This simply reveals that many of us believe that our sins can be forgiven and we can be changed by the power of the Gospel and others can be forgiven but changed...not so much.  I think this is a huge part of the problem that non-believers have with the way that we practice Christianity.  We are so inconsistent and arbitrary that it drives them crazy.  We claim we are to follow the Scriptures and not human wisdom when they disagree with the Scriptures but then we turn around and let human wisdom trump clear biblical teaching when it is convenient for us.

Again I understand all those advocating exclusion.  I have a wife who was molested and 11 of our children are under 18 years of age and we have another on the way.  I just cannot find the biblical merit in saying that God delivers from all sins so that we sin no more except this one.  I do not advocate stupidity but caution and grace and faith in God's ability to make new creatures of everyone including those whose sins we have been hurt by or sins we don't understand kind of like the family of Stephen and others who were killed and injured by Saul before he was converted and accepted by the church as an apostle.

I just saw T-Bone's last post and I am interested to see this alternate place to worship pointed out in Scripture.
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First, not all churches are just 200-300 people...what are you going to do put a "scarlet letter" on the pedophiles?  If you don't think there are temporal consequences for certain sins and that they disqualify people from some places and positions I can't help you.  And it is stupid to advocate pedophiles being around children.

As to the alternative places to worship (and you want a Scriptural reference)...first let me say you would have trouble providing Scriptural references for the way we do and meet in churches today, if you want to be real specific about it.  So here is my reference..."Where 2 or 3 are gathered together, I will be with them"...there are adult only Bible studies and small groups...in our area we have churches that are all adult because they are senior adult congregations with no children.  The repentent pedophile can do what is right and meet in a place with other believers where there are no children and they can have a great time of worship, teaching and growth.  We don't have to be stupid (I repeat myself) and put other people's children in potential harm's way.
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Thanks T-bone for your reply.  You do realize in a large church that pedophiles may roam freely as I indicated in my post and you and no one else can detect them until they request membership or seek a ministry position that requires background checks.  I think you missed that point.

I am pretty sure the passage you are referencing has nothing to do with corporate worship but with prayer.

Your posts seem to be missing the spirit of 2 Timothy 2:24 even for those of us who have not been convicted of any crimes.  :D

Kaba you to seem to be comparing unredeemed sinners in prison to those who have been redeemed--clearly not the same thing if the Scripture is accurate about the results of salvation.
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Actually I didn't miss your point...the point in the OP did not have anything to do with unknown, but with the known...thus my statement.

You are wrong about what my quote dealt with...it is not about prayer but the gathering of believers.  There is a verse that speaks of "two or three gathering", prayer is certainly apart of the gathering, but the emphasis is the gathering...so it holds (Matt 18:20).

Interesting you reference incorrectly in my case 2 Tim 2:24...do you do this every time someone disagrees with you on a subject?  I have not been hostile toward you or anyone else.  My guess you have a problem with Jesus calling the pharisees serpents and sons of the devil.  Anyway if you think I have been too harsh for you or others in this thread, you might need to stay out of debate forums...so your feelings don't get hurt.
 
kaba said:
Obviously Graceandtruth you are a much better Christian than I, and have a more forgiving heart!  I just choose not to sacrifice my children nor anyone elses child!

When you break the law, you have to be punished. A Child molester is not allowed by law to be around children-why is that so hard to accept. I just want the Child molester to follow the law. But then the Bible does mention about having a mill stone around your neck if you hurt a child so....... and the Bible does also talk about those that have hardened their hearts.
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No Graceandtruth is not a better Christian than you...Graceandtruth is a dangerous Christian who I hope is making no decisions concerning chruch policy or other people's children.
 
T-Bone said:
kaba said:
Obviously Graceandtruth you are a much better Christian than I, and have a more forgiving heart!  I just choose not to sacrifice my children nor anyone elses child!

When you break the law, you have to be punished. A Child molester is not allowed by law to be around children-why is that so hard to accept. I just want the Child molester to follow the law. But then the Bible does mention about having a mill stone around your neck if you hurt a child so....... and the Bible does also talk about those that have hardened their hearts.
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No Graceandtruth is not a better Christian than you...Graceandtruth is a dangerous Christian who I hope is making no decisions concerning chruch policy or other people's children.
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Sorry to disappoint you T-Bone.  ;)  I do make decisions concerning church policy but as for children I only make decisions concerning my own.  We let the other parents make the decisions concerning their children.
 
A question for those who advocate the admission to the whole church body with monitoring scenario.  Would you make the church aware of the specific offenders beforehand?  Would you notify them of exactly who they needed to be careful of?
 
Biker said:
Are two identities allowed here?

Would someone go as far as to falsely accuse others saying they put children in harms way while being the Associate Pastor of a church which produced two child molesters? (A Youth Pastor and Former Sunday School Teacher)

Now that would be un-frickin-believable...
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Are you making an accusation?  If so you are doing so falsely and you really need to apologize and repent of it.  The admin knows who I am and where I serve....you are close to libel and I have no problem calling you on it.  Let's see you do the right thing immediately!
 
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