Registered sex offenders and church attendance.

[graceandtruth]

Just a question.  I know that child molestation is a very distasteful sin from our human perspective but is there any biblical evidence that God does not make new creatures of these sinners like all the rest of us sinners when He saves us?  It seems that everyone is laboring under the impression that all can be washed, sanctified, and justified except sex offenders.  I can understand being careful but is exclusion from the churches the biblical answer?

 

[T-Bone]

Just a question.  I know that child molestation is a very distasteful sin from our human perspective but is there any biblical evidence that God does not make new creatures of these sinners like all the rest of us sinners when He saves us?  It seems that everyone is laboring under the impression that all can be washed, sanctified, and justified except sex offenders.  I can understand being careful but is exclusion from the churches the biblical answer?

Not my point at all.  God can and does make new creations out of all kinds of sinners...He did for me. But clearly there must be great caution with the lives of others involved.  Again, I believe that if a person has been made new by God, then they would understand and remove themselves from positions of leadership and from places they have disqualified themselves from being.  If they are change they will care more for others and the church than they do for their rights to a position or place.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Just a question.  I know that child molestation is a very distasteful sin from our human perspective but is there any biblical evidence that God does not make new creatures of these sinners like all the rest of us sinners when He saves us?  It seems that everyone is laboring under the impression that all can be washed, sanctified, and justified except sex offenders.  I can understand being careful but is exclusion from the churches the biblical answer?

Sex offenders certainly can be saved and sanctified.  The issue though, is how to involve them in the body.  As Tarheel pointed out, many laws require the offender to abide by local statutes, which often include making the identity of the offender known to the congregation.  Taking the whole church into account, you have to consider the members who have been victims of abuse and who still cannot cope with being around known offenders.  If the offender is able to be ministered to in a private controlled setting then they ought to be willing to accept those conditions in light of the consequences from their former actions.  On a much smaller analogy, some congregations who are generally okay with moderate alcohol consumption for individuals would never serve alcoholic wine in communion for fear of causing former alcoholics to stumble.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Just a question.  I know that child molestation is a very distasteful sin from our human perspective but is there any biblical evidence that God does not make new creatures of these sinners like all the rest of us sinners when He saves us?  It seems that everyone is laboring under the impression that all can be washed, sanctified, and justified except sex offenders.  I can understand being careful but is exclusion from the churches the biblical answer?

The gentleman I referenced in the OP was Music Pastor at the time he committed the offense. He had been 'saved' for most of his life, according to him. The point is not forgiveness but the extent of restoration. God forgave Adam, but didn't put him back into the garden.

What is your answer to the laws in many, if not most states, forbidding sex offenders coming near children's ministries?
Should churches defy them?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

In our situation, we heard from many, many parents concerned that this man was attending the same church as their children. THAT was a huge consideration....

 

[Timothy]

If mankind can't change then Jesus is a liar.

It's not a question of whether or not Jesus can change a man.  It's a cost/risk/benefit thing, since you cannot know with 100% certainty another man's heart.

I have a family member who is a convicted sex offender. He was allowed back into a Church, and eventually got to direct the choir.

Sin is sin in my book. If someone shows a pure heart of repentance we can't just show them the door.

Then again - I have been told my biggest issue is my forgiving heart.

If your church puts a convicted child sex offender (not sure if this is the case as you did not put the word child) but even a sex offender in a position of leadership, then there is a lack of wisdom there and you have made yourself liable for whatever he does.  It is not a matter of forgiving someone...it is a matter that there are somethings that disqualify an individual from leadership and serving in a church.  And your church is playing russian roulette with the innocent lives of people...shame on them!

No. He attends another Church.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

If mankind can't change then Jesus is a liar.

It's not a question of whether or not Jesus can change a man.  It's a cost/risk/benefit thing, since you cannot know with 100% certainty another man's heart.

I have a family member who is a convicted sex offender. He was allowed back into a Church, and eventually got to direct the choir.

Sin is sin in my book. If someone shows a pure heart of repentance we can't just show them the door.

Then again - I have been told my biggest issue is my forgiving heart.

If your church puts a convicted child sex offender (not sure if this is the case as you did not put the word child) but even a sex offender in a position of leadership, then there is a lack of wisdom there and you have made yourself liable for whatever he does.  It is not a matter of forgiving someone...it is a matter that there are somethings that disqualify an individual from leadership and serving in a church.  And your church is playing russian roulette with the innocent lives of people...shame on them!

No. He attends another Church.

So, the OTHER church is playing Russian Roulette with the lives of innocent people?

 

[T-Bone]

If mankind can't change then Jesus is a liar.

It's not a question of whether or not Jesus can change a man.  It's a cost/risk/benefit thing, since you cannot know with 100% certainty another man's heart.

Doesn't change my point regardless of what church does what you described.

I have a family member who is a convicted sex offender. He was allowed back into a Church, and eventually got to direct the choir.

Sin is sin in my book. If someone shows a pure heart of repentance we can't just show them the door.

Then again - I have been told my biggest issue is my forgiving heart.

If your church puts a convicted child sex offender (not sure if this is the case as you did not put the word child) but even a sex offender in a position of leadership, then there is a lack of wisdom there and you have made yourself liable for whatever he does.  It is not a matter of forgiving someone...it is a matter that there are somethings that disqualify an individual from leadership and serving in a church.  And your church is playing russian roulette with the innocent lives of people...shame on them!

No. He attends another Church.

 

[Timothy]

Just a question.  I know that child molestation is a very distasteful sin from our human perspective but is there any biblical evidence that God does not make new creatures of these sinners like all the rest of us sinners when He saves us?  It seems that everyone is laboring under the impression that all can be washed, sanctified, and justified except sex offenders.  I can understand being careful but is exclusion from the churches the biblical answer?

I agree, is this the Biblical answer? I immediately think of 1 Corinthians 5 where Paul talks about sexual immorality among the Church. Is this sin of child molestation the only one that justifies exclusion years after an offence? If it is a matter of safety then perhaps we shouldn't allow murderers since they might get angry and shoot the pastor, or ex-gangsters since their 'gang' might retaliate and burn the Church down ... etc ... I could go on.

Again, I think Paul would say to show the door to anyone living in active sin ... but, everyone else he would say open the door and love them like Jesus.

I can't help but think of 16 or 18 year old young man who makes a mistake in this sexual sin area, and to say the Church door is closed to their participation in corporate worship seems harsh.

As a parent I watch out for my Children. I make sure good people are taking care of them. Normally two adults run any program at our church .... as an actively engage parent I know they are safe at Church. It isn't just the ex-convicts we as a Church need to worry about ... we also have first time offenders lurking.

 

[Timothy]

If mankind can't change then Jesus is a liar.

It's not a question of whether or not Jesus can change a man.  It's a cost/risk/benefit thing, since you cannot know with 100% certainty another man's heart.

I have a family member who is a convicted sex offender. He was allowed back into a Church, and eventually got to direct the choir.

Sin is sin in my book. If someone shows a pure heart of repentance we can't just show them the door.

Then again - I have been told my biggest issue is my forgiving heart.

If your church puts a convicted child sex offender (not sure if this is the case as you did not put the word child) but even a sex offender in a position of leadership, then there is a lack of wisdom there and you have made yourself liable for whatever he does.  It is not a matter of forgiving someone...it is a matter that there are somethings that disqualify an individual from leadership and serving in a church.  And your church is playing russian roulette with the innocent lives of people...shame on them!

No. He attends another Church.

So, the OTHER church is playing Russian Roulette with the lives of innocent people?

I honestly don't see it that way. He isn't living in active sin. He has repented and the pressure of legalism, that probably aided in his sin, is now gone. I fear the silent men who could become first offenders more than him.

 

[graceandtruth]

I here you guys loud and clear.  I also understand that state laws must be obeyed.

Samspade made a good point that salvation should cause us to care for others but doesn't this go both ways?

I am looking for the biblical sanction in this "private" versus corporate ministry model offered.  If someone chose this model for convenience most of us would consider this unacceptable but for our convenience it becomes the model of choice.

I know there were some that were upset by the comparison of Saul prior to salvation to sex offenders but I am sure that Stephen's family was not happy with the decision to include Paul in the membership of the Church and not only that but recognize him as an Apostle and his writings as Holy Scripture.  It appears that no option was given to those who didn't like it and the first church split had not occurred yet so there was no Second __________ Church to move to. 

So again I understand the human angst.  I understand the concern for those who have been victims of the sin in question but I do not see where the Bible disqualifies those who engage in sexual sins from particular ministries but I do see where the perverts in Corinth were declared to be washed, sanctified, and justified.  I am not having trouble with the human reasoning for exclusion but I am having a problem finding biblical sanction for exclusion of sex offenders but not murderers, muggers, carjackers, etc.  I would assume that a person who has had someone kill their family member would have a problem with a murderer attending and participating in ministry as well.  So where do we draw the line of exclusion and what is our guide.

Thanks for the answers and understanding.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

If mankind can't change then Jesus is a liar.

It's not a question of whether or not Jesus can change a man.  It's a cost/risk/benefit thing, since you cannot know with 100% certainty another man's heart.

I have a family member who is a convicted sex offender. He was allowed back into a Church, and eventually got to direct the choir.

Sin is sin in my book. If someone shows a pure heart of repentance we can't just show them the door.

Then again - I have been told my biggest issue is my forgiving heart.

If your church puts a convicted child sex offender (not sure if this is the case as you did not put the word child) but even a sex offender in a position of leadership, then there is a lack of wisdom there and you have made yourself liable for whatever he does.  It is not a matter of forgiving someone...it is a matter that there are somethings that disqualify an individual from leadership and serving in a church.  And your church is playing russian roulette with the innocent lives of people...shame on them!

No. He attends another Church.

So, the OTHER church is playing Russian Roulette with the lives of innocent people?

I honestly don't see it that way. He isn't living in active sin. He has repented and the pressure of legalism, that probably aided in his sin, is now gone. I fear the silent men who could become first offenders more than him.

As I understand it, he is a registered sex offender.
Was he convicted of child molestation, rape or was his offense related to child porn?
Did the leadership of the church publically identify him as a registered sex offender?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I here you guys loud and clear.  I also understand that state laws must be obeyed.

Samspade made a good point that salvation should cause us to care for others but doesn't this go both ways?

I am looking for the biblical sanction in this "private" versus corporate ministry model offered.  If someone chose this model for convenience most of us would consider this unacceptable but for our convenience it becomes the model of choice.

I know there were some that were upset by the comparison of Saul prior to salvation to sex offenders but I am sure that Stephen's family was not happy with the decision to include Paul in the membership of the Church and not only that but recognize him as an Apostle and his writings as Holy Scripture.  It appears that no option was given to those who didn't like it and the first church split had not occurred yet so there was no Second __________ Church to move to. 

So again I understand the human angst.  I understand the concern for those who have been victims of the sin in question but I do not see where the Bible disqualifies those who engage in sexual sins from particular ministries but I do see where the perverts in Corinth were declared to be washed, sanctified, and justified.  I am not having trouble with the human reasoning for exclusion but I am having a problem finding biblical sanction for exclusion of sex offenders but not murderers, muggers, carjackers, etc.  I would assume that a person who has had someone kill their family member would have a problem with a murderer attending and participating in ministry as well.  So where do we draw the line of exclusion and what is our guide.

Thanks for the answers and understanding.

Every sex offender is loved by someone, I'm sure.
There are 'tiers' of sexual crimes in many states....from rape to child molestation to child porn offenses.
Many churches do allow some sex offenders to attend under constant supervision, and I have no problem with their doing such. However, in the case in the OP, this gentleman was a pastor, raped the woman regularly over a period of a year, usually in the church offices, showing her porn.

Our leadership did have some conflicting opinions at first, but the more we learned of the details and the more we heard from parents, it became obvious that, for the good of the ministry we had to ask the man to leave.

 

[Timothy]

If mankind can't change then Jesus is a liar.

It's not a question of whether or not Jesus can change a man.  It's a cost/risk/benefit thing, since you cannot know with 100% certainty another man's heart.

I have a family member who is a convicted sex offender. He was allowed back into a Church, and eventually got to direct the choir.

Sin is sin in my book. If someone shows a pure heart of repentance we can't just show them the door.

Then again - I have been told my biggest issue is my forgiving heart.

If your church puts a convicted child sex offender (not sure if this is the case as you did not put the word child) but even a sex offender in a position of leadership, then there is a lack of wisdom there and you have made yourself liable for whatever he does.  It is not a matter of forgiving someone...it is a matter that there are somethings that disqualify an individual from leadership and serving in a church.  And your church is playing russian roulette with the innocent lives of people...shame on them!

No. He attends another Church.

So, the OTHER church is playing Russian Roulette with the lives of innocent people?

I honestly don't see it that way. He isn't living in active sin. He has repented and the pressure of legalism, that probably aided in his sin, is now gone. I fear the silent men who could become first offenders more than him.

As I understand it, he is a registered sex offender.
Was he convicted of child molestation, rape or was his offense related to child porn?
Did the leadership of the church publically identify him as a registered sex offender?

Yes, he is registered for Criminal Sexual Conduct 2nd Degree (Relationship) with two girls who were sisters. He didn't rape them. The leadership did publicly identify him, but that was over 10 years ago. The Church isn't IFB.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I am looking for the biblical sanction in this "private" versus corporate ministry model offered.  If someone chose this model for convenience most of us would consider this unacceptable but for our convenience it becomes the model of choice.

I don't think this alternative ministry model is one of convenience, but of necessity.  As an adult, I can protect myself against the Sauls of the world, but as pastors and fathers we are to be particularly keen to protect the vulnerable and weak.  I think the other factor that most people are taking into account is that molestors are especially savvy at being a chameleon in order to gain access to their victims, and their rates of recidivism warrant extra caution.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I honestly don't see it that way. He isn't living in active sin. He has repented and the pressure of legalism, that probably aided in his sin, is now gone. I fear the silent men who could become first offenders more than him.

I think "fruits meet for repentance" might look like what others like Sam Spade, Tbone, and Tarheel  have suggested, and that the repentance would show up in the form of accomodating the victims within the church by not forcing them to endure constant reminders of the trauma they once endured.  In doing so, he could be a vital part of the church through individualized prayer groups and Bible studies.  He could lead people to the Lord and participate in the discipleship of adults, and a host of other fulfilling worshipful things in the body.

 

[prophet]

If a child predator could get saved,  he would kill himself, rather than offend again.
  "If you don't execute me, I'll do this again."-Jeffrey Maust...who hung himself in a jail cell, after being sentenced to life, for the 3rd time.

Anishinabe

 

[christundivided]

I here you guys loud and clear.  I also understand that state laws must be obeyed.

Samspade made a good point that salvation should cause us to care for others but doesn't this go both ways?

I am looking for the biblical sanction in this "private" versus corporate ministry model offered.  If someone chose this model for convenience most of us would consider this unacceptable but for our convenience it becomes the model of choice.

I know there were some that were upset by the comparison of Saul prior to salvation to sex offenders but I am sure that Stephen's family was not happy with the decision to include Paul in the membership of the Church and not only that but recognize him as an Apostle and his writings as Holy Scripture.  It appears that no option was given to those who didn't like it and the first church split had not occurred yet so there was no Second __________ Church to move to. 

So again I understand the human angst.  I understand the concern for those who have been victims of the sin in question but I do not see where the Bible disqualifies those who engage in sexual sins from particular ministries but I do see where the perverts in Corinth were declared to be washed, sanctified, and justified.  I am not having trouble with the human reasoning for exclusion but I am having a problem finding biblical sanction for exclusion of sex offenders but not murderers, muggers, carjackers, etc.  I would assume that a person who has had someone kill their family member would have a problem with a murderer attending and participating in ministry as well.  So where do we draw the line of exclusion and what is our guide.

Thanks for the answers and understanding.

Every sex offender is loved by someone, I'm sure.
There are 'tiers' of sexual crimes in many states....from rape to child molestation to child porn offenses.
Many churches do allow some sex offenders to attend under constant supervision, and I have no problem with their doing such. However, in the case in the OP, this gentleman was a pastor, raped the woman regularly over a period of a year, usually in the church offices, showing her porn.

Our leadership did have some conflicting opinions at first, but the more we learned of the details and the more we heard from parents, it became obvious that, for the good of the ministry we had to ask the man to leave.

One of my sisters-in-law and her family attend a church where a registered sex offender (inappropriate touching of a child) attends. His crime was committed over 10 years ago, and most believe that he has truly repented of his sins in that area. However, he is always under constant supervision. Pretty much, he is always accompanied by at least two deacons or elders whenever on church property. The way I understand it, even if he needs to use the restroom, he is accompanied inside. And, if there are children in the restroom, he either has to use another or wait until they all come out. He cannot teach, or even be in, classes where children are present. He is allowed to attend church functions, but it's my understanding that there are restrictions placed upon him even in those situations. He realizes why those things must be done, and is not bitter or angry at the church because of it. I guess at first some in that church were upset that the leadership would allow such a man in, but most have come to accept him as a member in good standing.

Its probably up to each individual church as to what exactly they want to do. However, if this guy ever offends again....you know who is going to be blamed. I'd say that blame would be justified. Saying "we did our best" won't cut it when that happens. Tarheel mentioned a incident that happened in NC. Here is a link to the article.

http://www.digtriad.com/news/article/278282/1/Sex-Offender-Henry-Clifford-Byrd-Sr-Charged-With-Raping-Child-At-Church-Function-In-Winston-Salem

 

[Recovering IFB]

[quote author=samspade]I have great sympathy for someone who says they have repented and are willing to do whatever it takes to not cause further pain to their victims. I have no sympathy for someone who says they've repented and everyone else should just get over it.

I would agree with this.

then why are you telling me... in essence.. just to get over it?... ..  do you have any idea what it is i;ve been trying to say here?. .. . alayman knows...  so does frag.. .  and a few others too... . . but very few others.... . and your good buddy recovering ifb thought it was funny to send me a red mark and nasty comment when i have never done anyone that way here.. .. . no matter what they said.. ..  all i said was what i repeated in the post afterwards about not thinking God would accept compassion for wolves as a valid excuse for failing to guard the sheep... . and i didn;t even say it to him. ....

i have given second chances to people... even to the person who was the primary perpetrator in the crimes committed against me as child.... and why?...  because she asked me to.. . . i forgave her immediately and even left an adopted family i loved and who loved me....  and ran back to her with hopes i could help her and re establish a relationship she destroyed.. .. when i got there i discovered all she wanted was to use me all over again...and she had enlisted her family to help her do it.. .. and i;ve been hearing her voice ever since.. . . ...  do you know what that;s like?... . do you have any personal visions received from God that qualify you as an authority on that?.... ..talk to your buddy recovering ifb about grace.. i;m not saying i never need lessons in it.. .. . but i don;t think i need them from you... or from your friends..... 
[/quote]

Number 1 , I never left you a nasty remark. My comment was everybody deserves a chance, what's nasty about that?
You go on about bad things happening to you, your mom being in prison and all that and I am sorry to hear that, but everybody has had something bad happen to them somewhere in life, it's called  the curse if Adam. We live in a sin filled world. Horrific things happen all over the place.
But Gods grace shines through and can change any heart, from a child predator to a simple person who is lost in their sin. God could use any body He wishes for His purposes. God forgives and is graceful to us sinner!
So call me names, I do love all of you here! And wish the best for all you!
BTW, I do know what I'm talking about here; when I was 14, I was sexually assaulted by a man who was just released from prison. I do know all the pain that goes with that and how it effects families,( my mother is still has problems with it to this day, 30 yrs later. I know the lesson of forgiveness that I am still dealing with today

 

[ALAYMAN]

Number 1 , I never left you a nasty remark. My comment was everybody deserves a chance, what's nasty about that?
You go on about bad things happening to you, your mom being in prison and all that and I am sorry to hear that, but everybody has had something bad happen to them somewhere in life, it's called  the curse if Adam. We live in a sin filled world. Horrific things happen all over the place.
But Gods grace shines through and can change any heart, from a child predator to a simple person who is lost in their sin. God could use any body He wishes for His purposes. God forgives and is graceful to us sinner!
So call me names, I do love all of you here! And wish the best for all you!
BTW, I do know what I'm talking about here; when I was 14, I was sexually assaulted by a man who was just released from prison. I do know all the pain that goes with that and how it effects families,( my mother is still has problems with it to this day, 30 yrs later. I know the lesson of forgiveness that I am still dealing with today

Sometimes winning an argument means losing a person.  There are times when you can be right (and in this case I don't think you are, but that is beside the point) but in insisting that you are right you do more harm than good.  This is one of those times.  Just let it go.