Registered sex offenders and church attendance.

[Frag]

I mean, once you get past the fact that the passage cited describes exactly what aleshanee was describing, it's completely irrelevant. But, that's going to be a difficult fact to avoid.

Bro, we don't agree on much -- I get that.  But for once you need to really listen to me.

Leave aleshanee alone.  Might be the wisest thing you ever did to simple excuse yourself from this thread.  You are causing hurt that you don't intend to, or can in no way understand.  So bow out. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

I mean, once you get past the fact that the passage cited describes exactly what aleshanee was describing, it's completely irrelevant. But, that's going to be a difficult fact to avoid.

Bro, we don't agree on much -- I get that.  But for once you need to really listen to me.

Leave aleshanee alone.  Might be the wisest thing you ever did to simple excuse yourself from this thread.  You are causing hurt that you don't intend to, or can in no way understand.  So bow out.

^^^^
this

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]You know what's funny Aleshanee? He really thinks he is a theological master piece. He's a legend in his own mind. He reminds me of my brother. (whom I really do love). He thinks everything revolves around what he believes and everyone.... and I mean EVERYONE, is beneath his understand of the truth. [/quote]

Actually, I am quite aware of how little I do know. That's because I've realized that the little theological box that I shoved God in was my fashioning an idol of out the Almighty that fit my own misconceptions instead of allowing my understanding of God to be shaped by what He says about Himself.

Of course, no one here tries to shove God into their own box... *whistles*

[quote author=christundivided]Yet, he makes a very common mistake. A mistake of a novice. He uses the example of God's divine choice in Paul as an example..... FOR ANYONE. The truth of the matter is, just because God chose "Paul" after he had persecuted the "Church of God".....[/quote]

Just one part of a whole...where does Scripture tell us that we should hold the sin of the repentant over their heads like an axe? Where does it tell us that we are to determine whether or not we think the sacrifice of Christ is sufficient for certain sins? (But, God forbid, if someone starts pointing at our sins.)

[quote author=christundivided]...doesn't mean God has chosen a repentant pedophile/rapist to be a "chosen vessel" for some infinitely valuable work of God.[/quote]

You do realize that God used several rapists for infinitely valuable works, no?

[quote author=christundivided]That's like comparing a turd to a 100 carat diamond in the rough. [/quote]

We are all turds. Christianity 101.

[quote author=christundivided]Don't get me wrong. I believe God can save such peoples. I hope they come to Christ. However, they must realize that their own actions have consequences. In the idea world, a hard core child rapist or even a rapist period... would find himself swinging at the end of rope..... or better yet, castrated, sitting on a mood of salt... waiting for a the firing squad to shot him full BBs until he dies from metal poisoning. [/quote]

That's exactly what Jesus said about the adulterous woman...

...now if I could only find that guy who could throw that first rock. (Although, it appears that many feel like they belong in that category...)

[quote author=christundivided]People like rsca want to always talk of forgiveness. I believe in forgiveness and I am glad God hasn't dealt with me according to my sin. Yet, don't throw everyone that commits sin into the same category as a pedophile or rapist.[/quote]

You believe in forgiveness of others yet openly call for the torture of these same people? I find your claims a bit hard to swallow.

[quote author=christundivided]Can they find fellowship with God? Yes. Can they find fellowship at a church filled with potential/past victims of abuse? Probably not. Nothing wrong with it at all. Don't let morons like rsca throw a guilt trip you way.[/quote]

Why are people so scared of grace?

Alashanee - I'm not talking about you at all with this comment. I understand that it might take a lifetime for some people to heal. I just believe that no one is so far gone that God cannot utterly transform them, and it's not the job of the Church to condemn those God has declared His. (Again...wisely...no one is saying we should let the guy fresh out of prison watch a classroom of 2-yr olds.)

 

[rsc2a]

I would hope all the bleeding hearts on this thread would not have a problem allowing visitation rights for the following:

A rapist forces himself on your wife and produces offspring.  He's given a slap on the wrist by the justice system and out of prison in five years, in which time he finds religion.  He demands paternity visitation rights for the child he sired.  Of course in your Christian charity you allow it, because this is the father of the child.  Don't be hard-hearted now, show your longsuffering patience and spirit of forgiveness.  8)

Except that he's isn't the father. He's a sperm-donor.

Really? Are you that callous toward a potential church member that's found faith in church??? 

On one hand you question their rejection and then you call them a "sperm-donor".

You're a hoot rsca. A buffoon.... but a hoot just the same.

No...but as the father of exactly such a child (although the guy didn't end up in jail), I have a bit more authority on it that you would. Fatherhood is more than contributing sperm.

 

[prophet]

I had a special opportunity to minister to a child molester while in Bible college.

We were dropping off a twelve year old girl who we picked up for the evening service.  We dropped her off at her apartment and started to drive away.  She came running back out of her apartment building screaming and crying because there was a man waiting for her in her apartment.  This "man" was in the habit of paying her mother to let him "babysit" her.  I put her back on the bus, went up to the apartment, and threw him down 2 flights of stairs.  I told him if I ever saw him near her apartment again, he would disappear.

He felt led of the Lord to move away.  Might seem harsh, but it was Chicago.....

That was 31 years ago, and I ain't spent a second yet feeling bad about it.

Now that's ministry!  God bless you for that.

Anishinabe

 

[prophet]

[quote author=aleshanee]a truly repentant person would not go near the thing or the person that was the focus of his crime.... especially if he knew just the sight of him was going to further traumatize recovering victims..  and others like the people he once preyed upon... .. he would voluntarily find some other way and some other place to worship God and serve Him... ...  don;t tell me these guys are reformed.... tell it to yourself while they sit in your church and stare at your children...  [/font][/size][/color]

Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine...

Not in the least bit relevant.

Anishinabe

I mean, once you get past the fact that the passage cited describes exactly what aleshanee was describing, it's completely irrelevant. But, that's going to be a difficult fact to avoid.
[/quote]Paul was doing God's work, under the rightful God-worshipping authority in his life, when God stopped him, and showed him the error of rejecting Christ.  He was living the most zealous life for God that anyone before him ever had, under the divinely appointed High Priest.
  Compare that to some child molesting millstone bait.  Not relevant.

Anishinabe

 

[christundivided]

I would hope all the bleeding hearts on this thread would not have a problem allowing visitation rights for the following:

A rapist forces himself on your wife and produces offspring.  He's given a slap on the wrist by the justice system and out of prison in five years, in which time he finds religion.  He demands paternity visitation rights for the child he sired.  Of course in your Christian charity you allow it, because this is the father of the child.  Don't be hard-hearted now, show your longsuffering patience and spirit of forgiveness.  8)

Except that he's isn't the father. He's a sperm-donor.

Really? Are you that callous toward a potential church member that's found faith in church??? 

On one hand you question their rejection and then you call them a "sperm-donor".

You're a hoot rsca. A buffoon.... but a hoot just the same.

No...but as the father of exactly such a child (although the guy didn't end up in jail), I have a bit more authority on it that you would. Fatherhood is more than contributing sperm.

I don't know whether to believe you or not. I am inclined to believe that its more than chance that you seem to be personally involved in just about every would be scenario presented in the forum. Regardless, you have to recognize the irony/hypocrisy.

As a "shining example of forgiveness"..... surely your absolute forgiveness would empower you to forgo your "fatherhood" to "such a child" after...... "said man" finds forgiveness through Christ. Or would you hold something against the "sperm donor"?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=samspade]I have great sympathy for someone who says they have repented and are willing to do whatever it takes to not cause further pain to their victims. I have no sympathy for someone who says they've repented and everyone else should just get over it.

I would agree with this.

then why are you telling me... in essence.. just to get over it?...[/quote]

I'm not at all saying this, and if you think I am, I apologize.

You were sinned against. It's not even an appropriate response just to "get over it". You should be honest about how you feel and how you've been hurt.

I'm just accepting (and rejoicing) that sometimes whose who were wolves can become sheep. I don't think it helps those people if we keep treating them like wolves. That doesn't mean we aren't diligent to make sure that they aren't still wolves dressed up like sheep, but God is the God of the miraculous and sometimes He does things that completely blow us away. Maybe he even turns a few wolves into sheep.

[quote author=aleshanee]i have given second chances to people... even to the person who was the primary perpetrator in the crimes committed against me as child.... and why?...  because she asked me to.. . . i forgave her immediately and even left an adopted family i loved and who loved me....  and ran back to her with hopes i could help her and re establish a relationship she destroyed...[/quote]

And I sympathize with you here. (Honestly, I do.) Your response for this individual is probably best. That doesn't mean its the best for every individual.

[quote author=aleshanee] .. when i got there i discovered all she wanted was to use me all over again...and she had enlisted her family to help her do it.. .. and i;ve been hearing her voice ever since.. . . ...  do you know what that;s like?... . do you have any personal visions received from God that qualify you as an authority on that?.... [/quote]

In a sense, I do. In a sense, I don't.

I remember clearly as a child laying awake as I listened to my (former) stepfather rape my mother. I have friends who are serving life in prison (in one case, in the other 12+ years) for murdering their child. I had to physically stop another man who was attacking my mother at some later point. But, no, I have never been personally assaulted.

[quote author=aleshanee]..talk to your buddy recovering ifb about grace.. i;m not saying i never need lessons in it.. .. . but i don;t think i need them from you... or from your friends..... 
[/quote]

I believe everyone needs lessons in grace from as many people as possible, myself included.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

[quote author=aleshanee]a truly repentant person would not go near the thing or the person that was the focus of his crime.... especially if he knew just the sight of him was going to further traumatize recovering victims..  and others like the people he once preyed upon... .. he would voluntarily find some other way and some other place to worship God and serve Him... ...  don;t tell me these guys are reformed.... tell it to yourself while they sit in your church and stare at your children...  [/font][/size][/color]

Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine...

Not in the least bit relevant.

Anishinabe

I mean, once you get past the fact that the passage cited describes exactly what aleshanee was describing, it's completely irrelevant. But, that's going to be a difficult fact to avoid.
[/quote]

No, it wasn't.
A sex offender is to a murderer or the Apostle Paul what a dog is to a Ford Explorer when it comes to church attendance. A sex offender is a different animal altogether from any other offender or sinner. They are almost always repeat offenders....last week in a city 30 miles from us a convicted child rapist, registered offender, raped a 12 year old girl in the church fellowship hall.

To make the point moot, In our state, registered sex offenders aren't allowed within 300 feet of a building used to care for or educate children, whether the school is in session or not. Our church has a school, so....

We did offer other alternatives to this gentleman, but it appears he isn't interested. If he attends another church, I feel obligated to inform the church leadership.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=rsc2a]No...but as the father of exactly such a child (although the guy didn't end up in jail), I have a bit more authority on it that you would. Fatherhood is more than contributing sperm.

I don't know whether to believe you or not. I am inclined to believe that its more than chance that you seem to be personally involved in just about every would be scenario presented in the forum. Regardless, you have to recognize the irony/hypocrisy. [/quote]

Believe as you will.  :

[quote author=christundivided]As a "shining example of forgiveness"..... surely your absolute forgiveness would empower you to forgo your "fatherhood" to "such a child" after...... "said man" finds forgiveness through Christ. Or would you hold something against the "sperm donor"?[/quote]

Yes, that makes perfect sense. I should divorce my wife of seven years (whom I have been with since she was five months pregnant with the child under discussion), completely neglect and ignore the other children we have,  split up our family, and give up my parental rights to a man who bolted after finding out that he got some girl pregnant, never to be heard from again. (A time when he also found it convenient to inform said girl that he was actually married and had been hiding that fact from her.)

Or I could recognize what the Bible teaches about what fatherhood actually is and live according to those definitions. (Hint: see Joseph.)

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]As a "shining example of forgiveness"..... surely your absolute forgiveness would empower you to forgo your "fatherhood" to "such a child" after...... "said man" finds forgiveness through Christ. Or would you hold something against the "sperm donor"?

Yes, that makes perfect sense. I should divorce my wife of seven years (whom I have been with since she was five months pregnant with the child under discussion), completely neglect and ignore the other children we have,  split up our family, and give up my parental rights to a man who bolted after finding out that he got some girl pregnant, never to be heard from again. (A time when he also found it convenient to inform said girl that he was actually married and had been hiding that fact from her.)

Or I could recognize what the Bible teaches about what fatherhood actually is and live according to those definitions. (Hint: see Joseph.)
[/quote]

So you do have something against the "sperm donor"?

See.... you go to extremes again. Lets keep it simple. Would you just share custody with the "sperm donor" that's found forgiveness in Christ? Don't you believe in restoration? 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]So you do have something against the "sperm donor"?[/quote]

I have absolutely nothing against the sperm donor. Neither does my wife. (His former wife on the other hand...)

[quote author=christundivided]See.... you go to extremes again. Lets keep it simple. Would you just share custody with the "sperm donor" that's found forgiveness in Christ? Don't you believe in restoration?  [/quote]

Why would I share custody of my child with someone who isn't the father?

 

[samspade]

I do believe that God transforms people in miraculous ways. However, part of being that new person in Christ means thinking of others first. So, if I know that my action now may cause pain to someone because of my past, I change my action now. And I do what I can to avoid the things that tempted me in the past. My actions/attitude reveal what is in my heart.

Back to the OP, it is the church's responsibility to protect the people there. A repentant predator will understand that. An unrepentant one will get mad and go somewhere else.

 

[T-Bone]

Here is the big "if" in this thread.  If the pedophile is really repentant and really has a heart for the church and for the children of the church, then he will remove himself from them and seek fellowship in a home group or a church with no children.  Can a person be forgiven, yes Jesus does forgive, but when a person who have done this horrid thing is truly forgiven and truly repentant then they need to do what is right and understand they have given up the ability to be around children.  If they refuse or try to assert their "right" to be at the church, then they are not truly repentant and really do not esteem others more highly then themselves.  Been there and dealt with this very thing!

And please stop comparing a pedophile, who should have a milstone tied around his neck and be cast into the sea with the Apostle Paul, there is a distinct difference and if you cannot see it, please stay out of any leadership position in the church...you don't have the biblical discernment to be making any decisions for the church.

 

[subllibrm]

And what if having such people amongst former victims causes those wounded/molested people to freak out, lose emotional control, and basically avoid the church for fear of relapses of complete terror when they see that type of person in the worship service?

Really? 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I believe every church should have some guidelines in place before you face the situation. Then, you can act rather than re-act to the situation!

 

[prophet]

I believe every church should have some guidelines in place before you face the situation. Then, you can act rather than re-act to the situation!

This is wisdom, coming from experience.

Anishinabe

 

[Castor Muscular]

If mankind can't change then Jesus is a liar.

It's not a question of whether or not Jesus can change a man.  It's a cost/risk/benefit thing, since you cannot know with 100% certainty another man's heart. 

 

[Timothy]

If mankind can't change then Jesus is a liar.

It's not a question of whether or not Jesus can change a man.  It's a cost/risk/benefit thing, since you cannot know with 100% certainty another man's heart.

I have a family member who is a convicted sex offender. He was allowed back into a Church, and eventually got to direct the choir.

Sin is sin in my book. If someone shows a pure heart of repentance we can't just show them the door.

Then again - I have been told my biggest issue is my forgiving heart.

 

[T-Bone]

If mankind can't change then Jesus is a liar.

It's not a question of whether or not Jesus can change a man.  It's a cost/risk/benefit thing, since you cannot know with 100% certainty another man's heart.

I have a family member who is a convicted sex offender. He was allowed back into a Church, and eventually got to direct the choir.

Sin is sin in my book. If someone shows a pure heart of repentance we can't just show them the door.

Then again - I have been told my biggest issue is my forgiving heart.

If your church puts a convicted child sex offender (not sure if this is the case as you did not put the word child) but even a sex offender in a position of leadership, then there is a lack of wisdom there and you have made yourself liable for whatever he does.  It is not a matter of forgiving someone...it is a matter that there are somethings that disqualify an individual from leadership and serving in a church.  And your church is playing russian roulette with the innocent lives of people...shame on them!