How much do HAC/FBCH staff members really make?

[RAIDER]

Sigh! Only the people who lived it can truly understand.

I know where you are coming from.  I have been friends with others who also "lived it".  I know one individual who liked the fact that he was working for Dr. Jack Hyles and the great First Baptist Church of Hammond.  It was a status symbol.  He was looked up to by hundreds of college students.  He was training the next generation of IFB.  He was willing to live on less to have this position.

 

[prophet]

It amazes me how we have made FBCH/HAC the big bully when it comes to pay.  Do we not all have a free will?  Are we robots?  Are we morons that can't make our own decision?

If I have a choice of 3 jobs.  One of them pays $15 per hour.  One pays $10 per hour.  One pays $7 per hour.  If I CHOOSE to go to work at the $7 per hour job it is my CHOICE.  Maybe I like the location of the $7 job.  Maybe I like the people I work with at the $7 job.  Maybe I get a prestigious title at the $7 job. Maybe I like my boss at the $7 job.  Bottom line..............it is my CHOICE.  I can cry and whine all I want.  There are two better paying jobs waiting for me.

Ok, FBCH/HAC paid terrible wages.  Their employees had to take second jobs to make ends meet.  They ate peanut butter sandwiches five time per week.  Does it stink?  Absolutely!!  Does it aggravate me?  Absolutely!

Bottom line.............the people that CHOSE to be employed there CHOSE to be employed there.  Maybe they liked the location of the job.  Maybe they like the people with whom they worked.  Maybe they received a prestigious title.  Maybe they liked their boss. 

They were not made to stay there.  When they received their first pay check they knew how much they were being paid.  I'm sorry, but my sympathy level is low for people who were dissatisfied with the pay yet stayed around year after year.

1. It was an honor to serve my church
2. I had an expectation, that the church would give me a housing allowance, but Jack Schaap poor-mouthed me when I asked him about it

So, I served, but knew that my church was dishonoring God, by forcing my family to go without food or Dad.

I do not regret my time on staff, especially because the church that I grew up in felt I was worth to represent it as an Ass. Pastor, when they knew my past life all too well.

I was asked to use my salary (time), and budget, to do improvements on JS's house, while I was told that the church couldn't afford to pay for my housing.

I honestly thought that we would vote JS out, over his nonsense doctrine, and financial mismanagement, and that I would just outlast him.

So, you see the balance?
I don't regret one minute of the time I was there, I chose to give to my own hurt.
I am ashamed of my church, and it's absolutely ungodly policy if oppressing the hireling in his wages, and prefering one above another, muzzling the oxen, and caring not for their own first.

Here is wisdom:
The bus ministry generated no revenue....but money was dumped into it.
Meanwhile, the staff members who did bring in revenue, or save the church $2 million in 6 years, were left to work a second job to eat.

That's the jelly on the bottom shelf.

I would do it again, though, cuz we never starved.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

It amazes me how we have made FBCH/HAC the big bully when it comes to pay........ my sympathy level is low for people who were dissatisfied with the pay yet stayed around year after year.

I guess you have no problem with infidels.

1 Timothy 5:8 - But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

I guess you have no problem with sore evil.

Ecc 5:13 - There is a sore evil which I have seen under the sun, namely, riches kept for the owners thereof to their hurt.

I guess you have no problem with the root of all evil.

1 Tim 6:10 - For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

At least we know where you stand.

If you read my entire post instead of just the parts that you choose you will see that I do have issues with it.  I can hear you now, "Push your keyboard out of the way.  Don't look at the complete post. Listen to me". 

The issues I have is with the people who felt they were being "robbed" staying around and continuing to to "robbed".  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me!

I did read your post you little MOG worshiping HACker!  Here, let me summarize:
"How dare you question FBCH and its MOG.  You brought it on yourself.  It really is too bad for you, but you deserved what you got.  I have no sympathy for people who are stuck in a system of abuse."
You are still bowing toward your Mecca located at 523 Sibley.

 

[RAIDER]

I did read your post you little MOG worshiping HACker!  Here, let me summarize:
"How dare you question FBCH and its MOG.  You brought it on yourself.  It really is too bad for you, but you deserved what you got.  I have no sympathy for people who are stuck in a system of abuse."
You are still bowing toward your Mecca located at 523 Sibley.

I live less that 4 hours from FBCH and HAC.  I have not been there in years.  I have no desire to go there.  On the other hand I do not buy the philosophy of "Poor me,  I knew things were wrong, I knew I wasn't being paid fairly, I knew I was miserable, but feel sorry for me because I CHOSE to stay until the place fell apart".  No bowing here, you filthy Binaca breath Hacker!! 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

The issues I have is with the people who felt they were being "robbed" staying around and continuing to to "robbed".  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me!

You really are totally missing the issue.  The low wages was put in place by JH to purposefully keep the staff dependent upon him.  Other FBCH modeled MOGs around the country follow the same model.  This is a method of manipulation and abuse of the minister (yes, the staff member is a minister).

These staff members have no idea what they will be paid until they start working.  They are good hearted people who want to make a difference in the Kingdom of God during their short time on earth.  They are shocked by their first check, figure out how to make and assume God will take care of them.  They willingly work for the cause of Christ.  Along the way, they are frustrated by finances and distraught with bills whenever anything out of the ordinary arises.  They always live meagerly, never enjoying finer things and watch as houses, cars and clothes deteriorate without any means to restore or replace them.    Still, your family is starting to suffer and you realize you have no means to provide the things that the ministry is expecting of your kids.  Your kids can't attend a youth trip without begging the MOG for a gift.  You can't take your wife out to eat for a date at a chain restaurant unless your MOG blesses you for your service.  Strain is placed upon the home.  Every time you ask the MOG for an increase, you are stonewalled and told to be happy serving the Lord.  The ministry can't afford a pay raise, but Obama might increase his handouts so we should try to apply for some of those.  It's okay though, because they are choosing this lifestyle to make a difference for God.  Your goal in life was never to get rich, but to serve God.

REALIZATION:
You have not provided for your family.  Your own are suffering.  The ministry has plenty of money as is evidenced by the wastefulness in certain areas and the lucrative lifestyle of the MOG.  You are being lied to so that you will compliantly serve.

You start looking for a way to get out and take care of your family, but how?  You have almost no transferrable skill sets, no certifications, no accredited degrees and no workplace history other than church.  Sorry, getting a good paying job is going to take time.  Oh, and quitting your position means quitting your church, which is a pretty big deal. 

Guess what!?!  You're stuck! The only way out is to move to a new location or denounce your church.  Both of these involve alot of stress upon you and your family.  The MOG owns you and he knows it.  He will continue to abuse you until you finally walk away in absolute poverty hoping to teach your kids to beware of MOGs.

The MOG will continue to take his family to vacation homes in different states, drive a different vehicle to work every day, buy himself new toys, buy top of the line clothes for himself and his family, while you keep hoping the second hand store has a discount day because your daughter had a growth spurt and is getting demerits at the Christian school because her knees can be seen when she is standing.



Yes.  I read your post.  Either you are an abuser or just clueless.  Let's hope for the latter.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I did read your post you little MOG worshiping HACker!  Here, let me summarize:
"How dare you question FBCH and its MOG.  You brought it on yourself.  It really is too bad for you, but you deserved what you got.  I have no sympathy for people who are stuck in a system of abuse."
You are still bowing toward your Mecca located at 523 Sibley.

I live less that 4 hours from FBCH and HAC.  I have not been there in years.  I have no desire to go there.  On the other hand I do not buy the philosophy of "Poor me,  I knew things were wrong, I knew I wasn't being paid fairly, I knew I was miserable, but feel sorry for me because I CHOSE to stay until the place fell apart".  No bowing here, you filthy Binaca breath Hacker!!

You have the mentality of an abuser's defense attorney.  Do you also believe the teenage girl was coming on to the pastor so much that he had no choice but to fornicate? 

 

[qwerty]

It is interesting to read all this, and I think there are some interesting points and some serious and false assumptions that are being made.  I can only speak for myself and the people I worked with for nearly 20 years as an employee and staff member.

I worked as an hourly employee for minimum wage for a few years before coming on staff.  I actually did leave for awhile and and went very part-time at the college and worked at a steel plant full-time for awhile (unsaved heathen...and the non-college students were worse  ;D ).  As a married student, and after doing the math and talking it over with my wife, I actually went back to minimum wage full-time and graduated. Shortly after that I was hired on staff.  It is true that I did not know what I would be making, but it was more than minimum wage.  After receiving my first pay check and multiplying by 26, I figured out my yearly salary.  Myself and my co-workers never suffered and never depended on Hyles for our needs, other that our regular paycheck. Some did work part-time elsewhere, I did not for many years, paid my bills, bought new cars as needed, and even bought my first house.  The only involvement that Dr. Hyles had in it was in passing while driving him home I mentioned him that we had just put an offer on a home the day before.

I prayed regarding finances, but I feel that all Christians should do that regardless of their situation.  I do not think that we did without, and there were not issues with making ends meet; but it always seems like that is the case sometime no matter what one makes. I make three times now what I made at the college, and still at the end of the month squeak by sometime.

Not long after Bro. Hyles' passing, I resigned my staff position and took a job in secular work doubling my pay.  It was not because of finances, but more of an issue with my boss.  Nothing major, just felt it better to just leave. We were/are still friends, but just something in that environment was off; I am sure folks can understand that.  I still attended FBCH and helped out on special projects without any retribution.  My wife and I still felt very welcome and remained excellent relationships with our friends and my former co-workers. After some changes were made and helping out on some projects with what would be my new college boss, I met with Schaap and mentioned the possibility of returning.  There was a kind of positive response and about five or six months later I was hired back on staff.

I can think of a dozen people that were let go or left after the Schaap fiasco that are working good jobs in the outside world.  I can not think of a single person on our college "team" that had any difficulty finding employment "on the outside".  I was just talking with one the other day about a ministry opportunity available outside of IFBdom that would be a good fit and had a great pay rate.  He declined because he was doubling that now.....so we are not all a bunch of skill-less, non-accredited buffoons.  Many of us just enjoyed working for a ministry, serving with great people, and watching students attend, graduate, and do something great as missionaries, pastors, teachers, parents, even plumbers, pilots, and businessmen.

 

[cast.sheep]

Qwerty, does your wife have the privilege to stay home with your kids?

 

[qwerty]

Qwerty, does your wife have the privilege to stay home with your kids?

Yes for the most part. She is still working a little from home and one day a week when I am off, really more for a chance of pace and to get away from the yelling and screaming.... and that's just from me ?

 

[Binaca Chugger]

It is interesting to read all this, and I think there are some interesting points and some serious and false assumptions that are being made.  I can only speak for myself and the people I worked with for nearly 20 years as an employee and staff member.

I worked as an hourly employee for minimum wage for a few years before coming on staff.  I actually did leave for awhile and and went very part-time at the college and worked at a steel plant full-time for awhile (unsaved heathen...and the non-college students were worse  ;D ).  As a married student, and after doing the math and talking it over with my wife, I actually went back to minimum wage full-time and graduated. Shortly after that I was hired on staff.  It is true that I did not know what I would be making, but it was more than minimum wage.  After receiving my first pay check and multiplying by 26, I figured out my yearly salary.  Myself and my co-workers never suffered and never depended on Hyles for our needs, other that our regular paycheck. Some did work part-time elsewhere, I did not for many years, paid my bills, bought new cars as needed, and even bought my first house.  The only involvement that Dr. Hyles had in it was in passing while driving him home I mentioned him that we had just put an offer on a home the day before.

I prayed regarding finances, but I feel that all Christians should do that regardless of their situation.  I do not think that we did without, and there were not issues with making ends meet; but it always seems like that is the case sometime no matter what one makes. I make three times now what I made at the college, and still at the end of the month squeak by sometime.

Not long after Bro. Hyles' passing, I resigned my staff position and took a job in secular work doubling my pay.  It was not because of finances, but more of an issue with my boss.  Nothing major, just felt it better to just leave. We were/are still friends, but just something in that environment was off; I am sure folks can understand that.  I still attended FBCH and helped out on special projects without any retribution.  My wife and I still felt very welcome and remained excellent relationships with our friends and my former co-workers. After some changes were made and helping out on some projects with what would be my new college boss, I met with Schaap and mentioned the possibility of returning.  There was a kind of positive response and about five or six months later I was hired back on staff.

I can think of a dozen people that were let go or left after the Schaap fiasco that are working good jobs in the outside world.  I can not think of a single person on our college "team" that had any difficulty finding employment "on the outside".  I was just talking with one the other day about a ministry opportunity available outside of IFBdom that would be a good fit and had a great pay rate.  He declined because he was doubling that now.....so we are not all a bunch of skill-less, non-accredited buffoons.  Many of us just enjoyed working for a ministry, serving with great people, and watching students attend, graduate, and do something great as missionaries, pastors, teachers, parents, even plumbers, pilots, and businessmen.

The pay scale at HAC seems to have had much to do with your political positioning.  Some did pretty well, others, not so much.  I don't know who you are, but you apparently held the good graces of the upper echelon quite well.  Hammond may be big enough to continue without upsetting any apple carts, or maybe that was something new after the Hyles era.  In the 90's, you would have a hard time being on staff without being 100% Hyles.

Also, as others pointed out, those who came to the college with a skill set and some money in reserves were able to do much better than those who did not.  When someone chooses to abandon a better paying career for the work of the ministry and willingly takes a paycut (knowing that previous endeavors will provide for his family), I understand.  When you grow up in the system, have a family and expect that one day, if you work hard enough and brown nose enough you might be able to take your wife out for a date or buy your kids clothes or afford some of the youth trips......only to discover.....  It is an entirely different paradigm.

Personally, I never received a paycheck from HAC or FBCH.  I share the story of several staff families with whom I grew up, one staff family who graduated HBHS with me and my own personal account.  I did work for three of their honorary "Dr.'s"  The story was the same with all three.  Yes - I was a fool.  A fool who not only worked for pennies to the hurt of my family, but who also bought into the IFB system of performance based Christianity, having known nothing else.

 

[subllibrm]

Pastors should have no control over church money or setting payroll. Just sayin'

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Here's a thought:

We were taught to never join the Southern Baptists because they control your finances.  If you ever speak against their policies, you will have your salary lowered or your retirement removed, or kicked out of the church and thus, the denomination controls the church.

Realization at IFB churches:  If you do not happily allow the pastor to treat you like his personal slave (mowing his grass, tending to his vehicles, etc after regular 75 hour work week), or heartily agree with his every policy, you will have your salary lowered, be fired and be kicked out of the church.

How is the IFB any better?  At least the SBC provides a retirement for you that you CAN take with you when you leave.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

The IFB churches claim to follow the book of Acts.  They want all the power of Pentecost, but none of the follow-through.

Acts 2:42-47King James Version (KJV)
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.  And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.  And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.  And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Discipleship?  Small groups sharing and learning over meals?  All things common?  Selling possessions and giving to those in need?  In home Bible studies?

Nope.  The IFB is the anti-thesis of the book of Acts model.

 

[RAIDER]

The IFB churches claim to follow the book of Acts.  They want all the power of Pentecost, but none of the follow-through.

Acts 2:42-47King James Version (KJV)
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.  And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.  And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.  And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Discipleship?  Small groups sharing and learning over meals?  All things common?  Selling possessions and giving to those in need?  In home Bible studies?

Nope.  The IFB is the anti-thesis of the book of Acts model.

The folks that you reference in the book of Acts were expecting the return of the Messiah any moment to set up his kingdom.  They were waiting for Israel to repent.  Peter's sermon at Pentecost was calling for national repentance.  These folks didn't need their lands and possessions because the Kingdom was going to happen within days.

While we should take care of others today, do you believe that everyone in a church today should sell their possessions and lands and bring the money to the church?  Do you know of a church that does this today?   

 

[Binaca Chugger]

The IFB churches claim to follow the book of Acts.  They want all the power of Pentecost, but none of the follow-through.

Acts 2:42-47King James Version (KJV)
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.  And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.  And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.  And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Discipleship?  Small groups sharing and learning over meals?  All things common?  Selling possessions and giving to those in need?  In home Bible studies?

Nope.  The IFB is the anti-thesis of the book of Acts model.

The folks that you reference in the book of Acts were expecting the return of the Messiah any moment to set up his kingdom.  They were waiting for Israel to repent.  Peter's sermon at Pentecost was calling for national repentance.  These folks didn't need their lands and possessions because the Kingdom was going to happen within days.

Are you not expecting the Lord's return? 
Luk_12:40  Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
Mar_13:32  But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mat 24:42  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat_24:44  Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Joh_5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Do you not want national repentance?

Those in local churches sold their goods to care for others in their local church.  This is the pattern established for us by Scripture.  The Law of first mention should help you understand that this is the method God chooses for a church to care for its own.  So, why aren't you the kind of Christian Christ calls you to be?  Have you not heard of the gift of helps?

While we should take care of others today, do you believe that everyone in a church today should sell their possessions and lands and bring the money to the church?  Do you know of a church that does this today? 

Is this what Christ calls us to do in Acts?  How about Romans 15:25-27?  And what about God's call for the church to provide for the poor?
2Co 9:12-13  For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God; Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;

But what would happen if someone were to sell their luxury car, by a modest car and donate $20,000 to the church?  Would the poor be cared for?  Not in the IFB model.  Oh, a bus is given gas money or a sucker is bought for the bus kid, but where does the money stay?  The oppressed member, even the mid to low level staff member is ignored in their need while the MOG gets an all expense paid vacation.

Do churches today do this?  Nope.  Christians do not care for their own.  Instead, the responsibility has fallen to the government.  The MOG preaches against that "lazy hand out program" that is only in place because the church is to selfish, stingy and carnal to obey God's command of caring for the poor.  Try reading 1 Timothy 6, James 5 or 2 Peter 2  to get God's opinion on this matter.  Money is given to us by God to alleviate the stresses of this world and share God's care with others.  Not to showcase just how much people love us through their offerings.  If a MOG evangelist really wanted to showcase how God provides, he would give his honorarium to a church member in need, rather than buying luxury clothing and bragging about what a stylish fellow he is.

The MOG has run greedily after filthy lucre.  He does not realize that the workman is worthy of his hire.  He dwells in luxury while his staff and church members are in poverty.  He bridles the oxen plowing his own field.

HAC didn't teach us to study the Bible as a whole.  I suggest you try it.  You might be surprised at what you discover.

 

[RAIDER]

Binaca Chugger, while I agree with much of your post you have missed my point.


Acts 2:42-47
42" And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

You may want to learn to "rightly divide" the Word.  Notice that many signs and wonders were done by the apostles.  How are you doing with that today?  Sounds like something unique for the early Jewish believers, doesn't it.

Please notice that it wasn't just one guy who decided to sell his chariot and help the poor in the assembly.  "All" who believed had "all" things common "and sold" "and parted".  Sounds almost like Socialism doesn't it.  If you were pastoring would you preach to your church members that they should sell their possessions and goods and bring the money for distribution?

Notice also that they "continued with one accord at the local church on the corner".  Oops!!  The Bible actually says that they "continued with one accord in the temple".  That almost sounds like they were still holding on the some old Jewish ways, doesn't it?

Yes, I am looking for the Lord's return.  I am ashamed that I don't look for it as often as I should.  On the other hand, these Jewish believers were just days removed from the crucifixion.

Notice before the Ascension what the apostles were interested in:

Acts 1
6 "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

The apostles had the Kingdom on their mind.  What the angel told them excited them even more.

Acts 1
9 "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

So the apostles go to an upper room to "wait".  Instead, Peter knows that Jesus promised the apostles that they would sit on 12 thrones to judge Israel in His Kingdom.  Peter realizes that Christ will be returning soon and he needed to make sure that there is a 12th apostle to fill that seat.

Acts 1
23 "And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles."

I agree with you that local churches should do everything possible to care for their own.  If someone sells a car and says, "I want this money to be used to care for the poor in our church" I think that is fantastic!  I also agree with you that the government has taken over the church's responsibility.

I realize that HAC didn't teach you to study the Bible as a whole.  I suggest you try it.  You might be surprised what you discover when you rightly divide the Word.


 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Binaca Chugger, while I agree with much of your post you have missed my point.

I see your point.  You don't believe this teaching of the Bible applies to churches today. 

Acts 2:42-47
42" And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

You may want to learn to "rightly divide" the Word.  Notice that many signs and wonders were done by the apostles.  How are you doing with that today?  Sounds like something unique for the early Jewish believers, doesn't it.

Nope.  Sounds like what we need today.  If you have a relationship with God that includes prayer, you may have seen some signs and wonders done also.  I know my family has seen both signs and wonders.  I still believe Eph 3:20  Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.   Why do you not believe Eph 3?

Please notice that it wasn't just one guy who decided to sell his chariot and help the poor in the assembly.  "All" who believed had "all" things common "and sold" "and parted".  Sounds almost like Socialism doesn't it.  If you were pastoring would you preach to your church members that they should sell their possessions and goods and bring the money for distribution?

ABSOLUTELY!  I would follow Solomon's instruction in Ecclesiastes to warn people about attempting to find purpose and meaning in life through their accumulation of goods.  I would follow the aforementioned instruction to help people understand the wastefulness of piling up mammon.  If God blesses a Christian with much goods, it is for the ministry of helps.  Choosing to hoard your goods and not help your brother in need is sin.  I have many friends who have been so blessed and who have made a determination to use their business and the profits from their business to help Christians in need rather than increasing their car payments and mortgage payments.  These people understand the Scriptural purpose of money.  Why do you not?  Are you greedy of filthy lucre?

Notice also that they "continued with one accord at the local church on the corner".  Oops!!  The Bible actually says that they "continued with one accord in the temple".  That almost sounds like they were still holding on the some old Jewish ways, doesn't it?

No, RAIDER, it doesn't.  Jesus went to the temple to explain the Gospel.  Paul went to the temple to explain the Gospel.  After hearing the Gospel from Peter at Pentecost, they went to the temple to continue their instruction.  They also continued daily from house to house, over meals, discipling and fellow shipping.  Sounds like they had regular church meetings and small group studies in homes.  Again, we see an example of what a church should be.  Which of course, is prevented by the IFB.

Yes, I am looking for the Lord's return.  I am ashamed that I don't look for it as often as I should.  On the other hand, these Jewish believers were just days removed from the crucifixion.

Notice before the Ascension what the apostles were interested in:

Acts 1
6 "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

The apostles had the Kingdom on their mind.  What the angel told them excited them even more.

Acts 1
9 "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

So the apostles go to an upper room to "wait".  Instead, Peter knows that Jesus promised the apostles that they would sit on 12 thrones to judge Israel in His Kingdom.  Peter realizes that Christ will be returning soon and he needed to make sure that there is a 12th apostle to fill that seat.

Acts 1
23 "And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles."

So you believe the disciples had to much zeal and not enough knowledge.  If only they would have been filled with the knowledge that you have, right!  We are to believe that the Lord could return, but not so much belief that it effects our lifestyle today.  Got it.

I agree with you that local churches should do everything possible to care for their own.  If someone sells a car and says, "I want this money to be used to care for the poor in our church" I think that is fantastic!  I also agree with you that the government has taken over the church's responsibility.

I realize that HAC didn't teach you to study the Bible as a whole.  I suggest you try it.  You might be surprised what you discover when you rightly divide the Word.

It seems that you don't really believe the Bible should affect your lifestyle today.  I am sorry for you that you do not expect God to do marvelous things in your life.  I am sorry for you that you are not really expecting the Lord to return.  In short, you have a paradigm that was taught to you and you are trying to throw away and Scripture that is in contradiction to your paradigm.

All of this because you are looking for a way to justify the MOG living wealthy while the staff live in poverty.  The MOG is a manipulator who intentionally keeps his staff poor to better control them and build loyalty to himself.  This alone is sin.  This practice also is in violation of the Scriptural usage of money.

Once again:  PASTORS, PAY YOUR STAFF!

[/quote]

 

[RAIDER]

Binaca Chugger, so I have to ask, since you believe the passage that we have referenced is in local NT church language, have you sold your possessions and laid the proceeds at the apostles.....I mean you preacher's feet for distribution?

I also must ask, are you a member of a house church?  If not, why?  If it's the way the NT church is suppose to be today.

Do the signs and wonders that you are experiencing include healing the sick, raising the dead, and casting out devils?  That is the type "signs and wonders" that Acts 2 is referencing.  The Jews seek for a sign.  These were the apostolic gifts.
Yes, I also see many signs and wonders in my life, but they are not the apostolic gifts from Acts 2.

You ask me if the apostles had zeal without knowledge. Yes!  God has a plan.  There is a time for them to know things.  They had these type issues all through the Gospels.

Luke 18
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

Yes, Binaca Chugger, I am expecting the Lord to come.  I am looking for Him to come at any moment.  Do I look for the Lord to come as much as I ought to?  No, and neither do you.

Many of the things you are saying are right and correct.  You have chosen a Scripture to prove your point that does not do the job. 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Why are you having such a hard time accepting the fact that MOGs are sinning in not caring for their staff members?  What's the rub, really?  Do you really like the idea of a staff member treated like a slave and fed crumbs?  But, fine, I'll answer your questions.

Binaca Chugger, so I have to ask, since you believe the passage that we have referenced is in local NT church language, have you sold your possessions and laid the proceeds at the apostles.....I mean you preacher's feet for distribution?

I don't have anything to sell.  I have always been that one who was abused.  I have never had money left over at the end of the month and have never been able to purchase anything of real value to sell.  I do have a responsibility to my family to provide for them.  I do that now.  It will take several years for me to be in a place to be able to give my possessions away.  Still, when I see a need of another Christian and I am so moved, I have given to meet needs.  Yes, I have put items on Craigslist and eBay to give money to another's need.  I did not give the money to the MOG, he has more than he can spend and didn't do anything about it.  I don't trust a MOG with money.

I also must ask, are you a member of a house church?  If not, why?  If it's the way the NT church is suppose to be today.

Go back and read the posts.  The NT model is meeting as a whole church AND locally in small groups.  The IFB prohibits small group Bible studies.  When I was on staff for a "Dr." he told me my wife was not allowed to meet with other women in the church to study 1 Peter.  He believed that women could not study the Bible for themselves and encourage each other.  The IFB is, again, the anti-thesis of the church in Acts.

Do the signs and wonders that you are experiencing include healing the sick, raising the dead, and casting out devils?  That is the type "signs and wonders" that Acts 2 is referencing.  The Jews seek for a sign.  These were the apostolic gifts.
Yes, I also see many signs and wonders in my life, but they are not the apostolic gifts from Acts 2.

Healing sick?  Yes
Raising dead?  No
Casting out demons?  Yes
Why do you not believe Ephesians 3?

You ask me if the apostles had zeal without knowledge. Yes!  God has a plan.  There is a time for them to know things.  They had these type issues all through the Gospels.

Luke 18
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

Yes, Binaca Chugger, I am expecting the Lord to come.  I am looking for Him to come at any moment.  Do I look for the Lord to come as much as I ought to?  No, and neither do you.

Many of the things you are saying are right and correct.  You have chosen a Scripture to prove your point that does not do the job.

Luke 18:34 is talking about the crucifixion, not the second coming.

The point of this is not necessarily what they knew.  The point is they were living like the Second Coming is real.  Hoarding your goods and depriving the poor is NOT living like you believe the Second Coming is real.  Rather, Solomon claims this lifestyle to be vanity.

 

[RAIDER]

Why are you having such a hard time accepting the fact that MOGs are sinning in not caring for their staff members?  What's the rub, really?  Do you really like the idea of a staff member treated like a slave and fed crumbs?  But, fine, I'll answer your questions.

I have no idea where you are coming up with this stupidity.  I believe that those in full-time Christian service ought to be taken care of.  I believe this if you are a pastor or assistant pastor.  If you are going to start a Christian school, pay your teachers decently.  If you are going to start a college, pay your staff decently.  I am not condoning what FBCH is being accused of on the FFF.

On the other hand, if I have a life's dream of working in the sporting good's department at WalMart, I will not be expecting to make $50,000 a year.  it is not what the job pays.  Do I curse WalMart for not paying me $50,000? No!  Do I think WalMart is a stinkin' company? Absolutely!

I have a choice.  I can fulfill my life's dream and work at WalMart and try to live on what they pay, or I can find another job doing something else and make more money.

I really don't understand why you can't see what I am saying.  Churches should pay their employees a liveable wage.  If a church employee is not receiving a liveable wage they should find a job elsewhere. 

Final answer!