How much do HAC/FBCH staff members really make?

[RAIDER]

I don't have anything to sell.  I have always been that one who was abused.  I have never had money left over at the end of the month and have never been able to purchase anything of real value to sell.  I do have a responsibility to my family to provide for them.  I do that now.  It will take several years for me to be in a place to be able to give my possessions away.  Still, when I see a need of another Christian and I am so moved, I have given to meet needs.  Yes, I have put items on Craigslist and eBay to give money to another's need.  I did not give the money to the MOG, he has more than he can spend and didn't do anything about it.  I don't trust a MOG with money.

I absolutely admire your Christianity in this area.  It is noble and Godly.

While you like to pick out these verses in early Acts as a pattern for the NT church, it doesn't work.  If you are going to do it, let's not pick and choose just the verses we want to follow.

Please notice where the people put the money in the early chapters of Acts.  You need to make sure you follow suit.
 
Acts 4
32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

 

[kaba]

At a church we once worked at, we did get free housing, but the husband got paid I think about $12,000 a year before taxes. I taught one class a day and did the lunch room and I think I got $75 before taxes twice a month. One time The pastor took all the staff out to eat along with their wives. So that was the Pastor-his wife, Asst Pastor-his wife, Husband and myself. While driving to the location the husband and I are trying to figure out what we could order because we had NO extra money, got to the restaurant and as we are ordering the Pastor makes a big deal out of tell the husband that he (the Pastor) was paying and not to order the most expensive thing on the menu!!!

Out of all my experience from HAC and from living very poor on a Pastor's salary I have made conscience decisions about how to treat people!! I know what I went through was just life! And others went through a lot worse than I did. I do believe if you are going to have staff, make sure their needs are met and they are taken care of.

 

[RAIDER]

Healing sick?  Yes
Raising dead?  No
Casting out demons?  Yes
Why do you not believe Ephesians 3?

So you have healed the sick like the apostles did?  You have cast out demons like the apostles did?

Acts 2
6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.

Acts 5
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Acts 8
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.

Acts 19
12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Sorry, Binaca Chugger, the apostolic gift of healing is gone.  We can pray and God can hear and answer and heal, but it is different than the gift.

Ephesians 3 is a fantastic chapter.  I believe it all.  Here are the first 2 verses.

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

 

[RAIDER]

Luke 18:34 is talking about the crucifixion, not the second coming.

The point of this is not necessarily what they knew.  The point is they were living like the Second Coming is real.  Hoarding your goods and depriving the poor is NOT living like you believe the Second Coming is real.  Rather, Solomon claims this lifestyle to be vanity.

I agree with everything you have said here. 

They were preaching for national repentance from Israel.  They thought that God was giving Israel a second chance to bring the immediate return of Christ and bring His kingdom.  They were selling their goods because who needs goods if the kingdom is going to start next week.  The beginning of the book of Acts deals with Israel .  How many Gentiles do you see in the first few chapters of Acts?

 

[RAIDER]

Binaca Chugger, you and I are normally on the same page.  This time we are not.  I have enjoyed our little "debate".  It seems that you are more worked up than I am.  I'm sorry if I pushed you to that point. 

We both feel like Christian servants should be financially taken care of.  I served as an Assistant Pastor for 10 years after graduating from HAC.  It was the mid '80s and I made $13,000 - $15,000.  I knew what my pay was going to be before I worked my first day.  This is what the church could afford.  I took a 20 hour a week job to help make ends meet.  I was very happy and God took care of me.  I knew that working at that church in that position would be a sacrifice.  I loved every minute of it, and I learned much.  If I would have reached a point where I was miserable or going into debt, I would have left.  That is the only point I am trying to make.

If you want to continue to debate our "Acts discussion" I am game.  If you are tired of it, I am also game.  I'm sure you are a great guy who loves the Lord and I have no ax to grind with you, you stinkin' Hacker!! 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Why are you having such a hard time accepting the fact that MOGs are sinning in not caring for their staff members?  What's the rub, really?  Do you really like the idea of a staff member treated like a slave and fed crumbs?  But, fine, I'll answer your questions.

I have no idea where you are coming up with this stupidity.  I believe that those in full-time Christian service ought to be taken care of.  I believe this if you are a pastor or assistant pastor.  If you are going to start a Christian school, pay your teachers decently.  If you are going to start a college, pay your staff decently.  I am not condoning what FBCH is being accused of on the FFF.

On the other hand, if I have a life's dream of working in the sporting good's department at WalMart, I will not be expecting to make $50,000 a year.  it is not what the job pays.  Do I curse WalMart for not paying me $50,000? No!  Do I think WalMart is a stinkin' company? Absolutely!

I have a choice.  I can fulfill my life's dream and work at WalMart and try to live on what they pay, or I can find another job doing something else and make more money.

I really don't understand why you can't see what I am saying.  Churches should pay their employees a liveable wage.  If a church employee is not receiving a liveable wage they should find a job elsewhere. 

Final answer!

I have been trying to point out the following:
When a MOG intentionally denies his staff member a livable wage and the opportunity to work other jobs in order to keep the staff member loyal and dependent upon the MOG, the MOG is nothing more than a manipulative bully.  Add to this the extravagance of the MOGs lifestyle in contrast to the poverty of the staff member and you have a real problem in the "church."

I don't understand why you have no sympathy for people who feel stuck in such a system of abuse.  Their sense of loyalty to God's work coupled with a fear of the MOG keep him in his place of abuse.

I have no sympathy for the abuser.  I hope that one day the misappropriation of funds and corporate malfeasance is discovered and the MOG goes to jail.

I have deep sympathy for the abused.  I understand the feeling of hopelessness and desperation and wish I could help these find their way to a place of help.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I don't have anything to sell.  I have always been that one who was abused.  I have never had money left over at the end of the month and have never been able to purchase anything of real value to sell.  I do have a responsibility to my family to provide for them.  I do that now.  It will take several years for me to be in a place to be able to give my possessions away.  Still, when I see a need of another Christian and I am so moved, I have given to meet needs.  Yes, I have put items on Craigslist and eBay to give money to another's need.  I did not give the money to the MOG, he has more than he can spend and didn't do anything about it.  I don't trust a MOG with money.

I absolutely admire your Christianity in this area.  It is noble and Godly.

While you like to pick out these verses in early Acts as a pattern for the NT church, it doesn't work.  If you are going to do it, let's not pick and choose just the verses we want to follow.

Please notice where the people put the money in the early chapters of Acts.  You need to make sure you follow suit.
 
Acts 4
32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

If I had the funds to do so, and knew a pastor that could be trusted with money, I would.  Since I don't know any MOGs I trust with even $40.00 to help someone with a tank of gas, I send it directly to the person via PayPal, hand them the cash or find another way to do it anonymously.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Healing sick?  Yes
Raising dead?  No
Casting out demons?  Yes
Why do you not believe Ephesians 3?

So you have healed the sick like the apostles did?  You have cast out demons like the apostles did?

Um.  Well, God did it.  But, yes.  Not in great number, but, yes.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Binaca Chugger, you and I are normally on the same page.  This time we are not.  I have enjoyed our little "debate".  It seems that you are more worked up than I am.  I'm sorry if I pushed you to that point. 

We both feel like Christian servants should be financially taken care of.  I served as an Assistant Pastor for 10 years after graduating from HAC.  It was the mid '80s and I made $13,000 - $15,000.  I knew what my pay was going to be before I worked my first day.  This is what the church could afford.  I took a 20 hour a week job to help make ends meet.  I was very happy and God took care of me.  I knew that working at that church in that position would be a sacrifice.  I loved every minute of it, and I learned much.  If I would have reached a point where I was miserable or going into debt, I would have left.  That is the only point I am trying to make.

If you want to continue to debate our "Acts discussion" I am game.  If you are tired of it, I am also game.  I'm sure you are a great guy who loves the Lord and I have no ax to grind with you, you stinkin' Hacker!!

If someone chooses to work for low wages and the church honestly is doing all they can to support the staff, great.  I have no problem with that.  When the MOG refuses to tell people what they will make and then intentionally keeps them a pauper - I have a big problem with that.

I am worked up because I have seen too many staff member's families destroyed because of destitute poverty.  Poverty that was a tool of deception and manipulation by the MOG who enjoyed his luxury.  This stuff really bothers me.  The whole "You need to sacrifice for Jesus while my family goes on a Bahama cruise" line is disgusting.

I have problem with the IFB churches who want to be a "Book of Acts" church, but refuse to follow the financial pattern of the book of Acts.  They claim to have the power of Acts, while denying the grace of Acts.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Churches should pay their employees a liveable wage.  If a church employee is not receiving a liveable wage they should find a job elsewhere. 

Final answer!

Although I do not believe the church's should be paying any direct salary (but that is another argument for another day), your principle seems to hold up with Jesus' parable in Matthew 20:

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’ And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius.  Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius. And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house, saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’ So the last will be first, and the first last.