How much do HAC/FBCH staff members really make?

[bgwilkinson]

The tuition at PCC is much less than HAC.  We were surprised by that.  But, hey!  Someone's gotta pay for the repairs on Stuart Mason's house.

PCC has a high profit publishing company as part of their portfolio.

Their problem is that the publishing company makes too much money.

FBCH has the opposite problem all of its companies are money burners there is not one that turns a profit, except maybe the thrift store, and not much. Oh I forgot our high profit funeral home operation. If all our companies made as much as the funeral home operation we could compete with PCC. It's the only one people are just dying to get in. The others you have to cajole and sweet-talk.

 

[RAIDER]

The tuition at PCC is much less than HAC.  We were surprised by that.  But, hey!  Someone's gotta pay for the repairs on Stuart Mason's house.

PCC has a high profit publishing company as part of their portfolio.

Their problem is that the publishing company makes too much money.

FBCH has the opposite problem all of its companies are money burners there is not one that turns a profit, except maybe the thrift store, and not not much.

ABEKA Books is a money making machine.

 

[kaba]

Loved their material. But would never send my kids to PCC, don't think they would want to go anyways!!

 

[Norefund]

Loved their material. But would never send my kids to PCC, don't think they would want to go anyways!!

What, in your opinion, is wrong with PCC? Just curious.

 

[kaba]

I am really petty in my reasons.

I just vowed to make it possible for my children to attend accredited schools, where they would receive great educations and then be able to find good jobs. So far so good 3 out of 4! I just cant not see how PCC can compare to Universities or colleges and their curriculum. (and Im not just talking about secular schools-my kids all went to Christian colleges). My kids laugh at the quality of education, when a church friend of theirs talks about her tennis class or her ice skating final. Just no comparison.

 

[Norefund]

That isn't petty at all. It's logical.

I am really petty in my reasons.

I just vowed to make it possible for my children to attend accredited schools, where they would receive great educations and then be able to find good jobs. So far so good 3 out of 4! I just cant not see how PCC can compare to Universities or colleges and their curriculum. (and Im not just talking about secular schools-my kids all went to Christian colleges). My kids laugh at the quality of education, when a church friend of theirs talks about her tennis class or her ice skating final. Just no comparison.

 

[nightbusheretic14]

A school bill for me at HAC was about $1260 after my two Jericho years.

 

[Still There]

Let me just say if it wasn't for my parents, my brother and his family would have starved to death or out in the cold when he worked at HAC!

 

[16KJV11]

Let me just say if it wasn't for my parents, my brother and his family would have starved to death or out in the cold when he worked at HAC!

That's why I work a second job driving a school bus, even after pastoring here for 9 years.

 

[Bruh]

I find that answer very interesting... Everyone that worked and stayed for any length of time knew what they were in for on payday.  Overall, I think pay of employees as about what one would expect when you think about what the student was receiving education wise.

Could you elaborate if possible?

I'm not saying they didn't know what they were in for. I'm saying, broadly speaking, independent Baptists in all walks and ministries pay their absurdly low. I grew up in a pastor's home. I've been a pastor now for 18 years. I have hundreds of friends in the ministry. I've done hours worth of work comparing pay rates for comparable size ministries of other denominations, comparable experience levels, etc. It is a disgrace.

It isn't popular to say that. But its the truth.

<thinking to myself I need to blog about this>

Tom, I completely understand what you are saying, I get it.

My only question/comment would be, are these salaries of pastors a reflection of how the pastor handles the churches finances?

It may be impossible to find out how the pastor's of IFB churches handle the finances.  Not saying that they would not be open but would be hard to do a survey.

Tom can you respond to this? Thanks!

 

[Fresh Air]

Tom, I completely understand what you are saying, I get it.

My only question/comment would be, are these salaries of pastors a reflection of how the pastor handles the churches finances?

It may be impossible to find out how the pastor's of IFB churches handle the finances.  Not saying that they would not be open but would be hard to do a survey.

Tom can you respond to this? Thanks!
[/quote]

In some sense, yes, a pastor's salary is a direct result of how he handles the church's finances. He cannot be paid if he fritters the money away. On the other extreme, if he has an overbearing leadership style he can turn the church essentially into his personal piggybank, mining it for all it worth, and short circuiting the cause of Christ as a result. I would make an educated guess that the former is a larger problem in the IFB world and the latter is a larger problem in the charismatic world.

It would be relatively difficult to discover accurately the averages for IFB churches in relation to staff pay precisely b/c no organization exists or is motivated to do so. But the Clergy Law and Tax Report produces a yearly book designed to give guidelines for church in relation to paying staff. It is a very good place to start, both in understanding the current averages across the board, and how to formulate a pay package. Beyond that, it only takes google and some time to figure out what the larger/more organized denominations pay in your area since most of that information is publicly available for accountability reasons.

To me, the formula for determining pay isn't complicated. What is the pastor's level of education? What is the pastor's experience? How large is the church/how complicated are his responsibilities? What is the rate of inflation? What are equivalent pastors (in education/experience/church size) paid in other denominations? There are other things that ought to be considered, of course, but if churches would just start with those they would find a fairly accurate measuring stick.

The problem is - NOBODY wants to talk about it.

<yes, I really need to blog about this. I think I shall in February when my blog resumes.>

 

[4everfsu]

I am really petty in my reasons.

I just vowed to make it possible for my children to attend accredited schools, where they would receive great educations and then be able to find good jobs. So far so good 3 out of 4! I just cant not see how PCC can compare to Universities or colleges and their curriculum. (and Im not just talking about secular schools-my kids all went to Christian colleges). My kids laugh at the quality of education, when a church friend of theirs talks about her tennis class or her ice skating final. Just no comparison.

At one time I was one of the biggest opponents of sending students to PCC. That was until I read the success stories of their graduates, getting into public universities for graduate work, ranging from engineering to medical schools, etc. If I had it over to do again I would probably have gone to PCC, I mean I survived one year at BJU, so rules would not have bothered me.

 

[16KJV11]

I am really petty in my reasons.

I just vowed to make it possible for my children to attend accredited schools, where they would receive great educations and then be able to find good jobs. So far so good 3 out of 4! I just cant not see how PCC can compare to Universities or colleges and their curriculum. (and Im not just talking about secular schools-my kids all went to Christian colleges). My kids laugh at the quality of education, when a church friend of theirs talks about her tennis class or her ice skating final. Just no comparison.

At one time I was one of the biggest opponents of sending students to PCC. That was until I read the success stories of their graduates, getting into public universities for graduate work, ranging from engineering to medical schools, etc. If I had it over to do again I would probably have gone to PCC, I mean I survived one year at BJU, so rules would not have bothered me.

My wife has 4 sisters and 1 brother.  They all attended PCHS and PCC.  My wife went to HAC, the black sheep of the family..heh heh... 
But I digress.  Her brother is a CPA and owns his own business, making excellent money in California.
One of her sisters is trying to get into politics, but works at a law firm doing well.
Another of her sisters was a successful CPA until she contracted Parkinson's and is now pretty much disabled from it.
Another one of her sisters worked for GMAC for many many years making decent money.
One more sister and her husband are in the ministry at a children's home in Wisconsin.
None of them had military experience or other college/university degrees.
Seems like being a grad from PCC didn't hurt any of them.
Nowadays, you can pay big big money and still get bonehead classes from any college depending on what you sign up for.
Even me at HAC, I was able to work at Boeing for 5.5 years making a top salary of $72,500 back in 2000-01.  Not bad for someone with a degree from Hacker if I say so myself.
But to be fair, I was in the chairforce (which prophet delights and labeling me) and I got an Associate degree in my field while I was in.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I grew up at FBCH, graduated from HAC and worked nearly 20 years for Hyles cronies.

Jack Hyles purposely paid people less than a livable wage.  He proclaimed from the pulpit that church and school staff should not ever be paid so much that they are not dependent upon God.  This was one of his foundational principles for management.  He was afraid that if people got too much money, they would become content and no longer dependent upon God.  In reality, he wanted people dependent upon him.  His cronies used the same philosophy.

Staff were paid almost enough to make all their bills, if they were very diligent to watch sales, and didn't mind eating Ramen Noodles often.  When an event occurred in life (car breaking down, etc), they would need to "ask for prayer" from the pastor who would decide if God had a blessing to give them or not.  Of course, the pastor or church was to be praised for graciously allowing God to use them to meet this need.  In reality, this was a method of manipulation designed and perfected by a megalomaniac.  All of these cronies want the staff to be dependent upon themselves and nothing else.

I have worked for these megalomaniac MOGs.  At one location, I dared to ask what my pay would be.  I was simply told "If God wants you here, you will have enough money to make it."  I took the job.  I wanted what God wanted.  I worked for nearly a decade at a place where I remained in below poverty wages, even though I was responsible for a family.  When asked about increase to a livable wage, I was told to get on medicaid, welfare and food stamps.  Meanwhile, the pastor owned a different vehicle for each day of the week - after all, he was the MOG.  Once, when asking for a raise, I was told "If you bring in enough tithing people, we can give you a raise."  The result of my effort?  I was told to stop visiting because people were starting to become loyal to me instead of the preeeeeeeeacher.  When I tried getting a second job, I was told I had to choose between God or self, working for the church or x company.  I needed to be available at any time as a full time staff member.  In true Hyles fashion, if you had a life emergency, you could go to the preacher, ask for prayer, and wait to see if preacher (the god of the church) answered.

I understand missions.  I understand giving your all for God.  While working for a church that was going through a split, my family and I went 4 months without any guaranteed income.  It was a choice we made and God provided.  However, when there is plenty of money and the pastor is more than wealthy.........

To all the pastors:  PAY YOUR STAFF!

 

[RAIDER]

I grew up at FBCH, graduated from HAC and worked nearly 20 years for Hyles cronies.

Jack Hyles purposely paid people less than a livable wage.  He proclaimed from the pulpit that church and school staff should not ever be paid so much that they are not dependent upon God.  This was one of his foundational principles for management.  He was afraid that if people got too much money, they would become content and no longer dependent upon God.  In reality, he wanted people dependent upon him.  His cronies used the same philosophy.

Staff were paid almost enough to make all their bills, if they were very diligent to watch sales, and didn't mind eating Ramen Noodles often.  When an event occurred in life (car breaking down, etc), they would need to "ask for prayer" from the pastor who would decide if God had a blessing to give them or not.  Of course, the pastor or church was to be praised for graciously allowing God to use them to meet this need.  In reality, this was a method of manipulation designed and perfected by a megalomaniac.  All of these cronies want the staff to be dependent upon themselves and nothing else.

I have worked for these megalomaniac MOGs.  At one location, I dared to ask what my pay would be.  I was simply told "If God wants you here, you will have enough money to make it."  I took the job.  I wanted what God wanted.  I worked for nearly a decade at a place where I remained in below poverty wages, even though I was responsible for a family.  When asked about increase to a livable wage, I was told to get on medicaid, welfare and food stamps.  Meanwhile, the pastor owned a different vehicle for each day of the week - after all, he was the MOG.  Once, when asking for a raise, I was told "If you bring in enough tithing people, we can give you a raise."  The result of my effort?  I was told to stop visiting because people were starting to become loyal to me instead of the preeeeeeeeacher.  When I tried getting a second job, I was told I had to choose between God or self, working for the church or x company.  I needed to be available at any time as a full time staff member.  In true Hyles fashion, if you had a life emergency, you could go to the preacher, ask for prayer, and wait to see if preacher (the god of the church) answered.

I understand missions.  I understand giving your all for God.  While working for a church that was going through a split, my family and I went 4 months without any guaranteed income.  It was a choice we made and God provided.  However, when there is plenty of money and the pastor is more than wealthy.........

To all the pastors:  PAY YOUR STAFF!

Wow!  You worked for some real boneheads!  I have been fortunate enough to be around HAC grads or preachers that were greatly affected by Pastor's School that paid their staff a wage equal to or greater than what the average church member earned. 

 

[cast.sheep]

Your experience is not the norm, Raider.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I grew up at FBCH, graduated from HAC and worked nearly 20 years for Hyles cronies.

Jack Hyles purposely paid people less than a livable wage.  He proclaimed from the pulpit that church and school staff should not ever be paid so much that they are not dependent upon God.  This was one of his foundational principles for management.  He was afraid that if people got too much money, they would become content and no longer dependent upon God.  In reality, he wanted people dependent upon him.  His cronies used the same philosophy.

Staff were paid almost enough to make all their bills, if they were very diligent to watch sales, and didn't mind eating Ramen Noodles often.  When an event occurred in life (car breaking down, etc), they would need to "ask for prayer" from the pastor who would decide if God had a blessing to give them or not.  Of course, the pastor or church was to be praised for graciously allowing God to use them to meet this need.  In reality, this was a method of manipulation designed and perfected by a megalomaniac.  All of these cronies want the staff to be dependent upon themselves and nothing else.

I have worked for these megalomaniac MOGs.  At one location, I dared to ask what my pay would be.  I was simply told "If God wants you here, you will have enough money to make it."  I took the job.  I wanted what God wanted.  I worked for nearly a decade at a place where I remained in below poverty wages, even though I was responsible for a family.  When asked about increase to a livable wage, I was told to get on medicaid, welfare and food stamps.  Meanwhile, the pastor owned a different vehicle for each day of the week - after all, he was the MOG.  Once, when asking for a raise, I was told "If you bring in enough tithing people, we can give you a raise."  The result of my effort?  I was told to stop visiting because people were starting to become loyal to me instead of the preeeeeeeeacher.  When I tried getting a second job, I was told I had to choose between God or self, working for the church or x company.  I needed to be available at any time as a full time staff member.  In true Hyles fashion, if you had a life emergency, you could go to the preacher, ask for prayer, and wait to see if preacher (the god of the church) answered.

I understand missions.  I understand giving your all for God.  While working for a church that was going through a split, my family and I went 4 months without any guaranteed income.  It was a choice we made and God provided.  However, when there is plenty of money and the pastor is more than wealthy.........

To all the pastors:  PAY YOUR STAFF!

Wow!  You worked for some real boneheads!

You can say that again.  Worse, I really thought I was serving God by not caring for my family.  But, when the only reality you have ever known in your life is FBCH, it may not be until your forties that you start to figure things out.  By then, of course, your finances are crap and you just start teaching your kids a better way.  Better to let the abuse of the megalomaniac end with me than my children be affected in the same way.

 

[Bruh]

I grew up at FBCH, graduated from HAC and worked nearly 20 years for Hyles cronies.

Jack Hyles purposely paid people less than a livable wage.  He proclaimed from the pulpit that church and school staff should not ever be paid so much that they are not dependent upon God.  This was one of his foundational principles for management.  He was afraid that if people got too much money, they would become content and no longer dependent upon God.  In reality, he wanted people dependent upon him.  His cronies used the same philosophy.

Staff were paid almost enough to make all their bills, if they were very diligent to watch sales, and didn't mind eating Ramen Noodles often.  When an event occurred in life (car breaking down, etc), they would need to "ask for prayer" from the pastor who would decide if God had a blessing to give them or not.  Of course, the pastor or church was to be praised for graciously allowing God to use them to meet this need.  In reality, this was a method of manipulation designed and perfected by a megalomaniac.  All of these cronies want the staff to be dependent upon themselves and nothing else.

I have worked for these megalomaniac MOGs.  At one location, I dared to ask what my pay would be.  I was simply told "If God wants you here, you will have enough money to make it."  I took the job.  I wanted what God wanted.  I worked for nearly a decade at a place where I remained in below poverty wages, even though I was responsible for a family.  When asked about increase to a livable wage, I was told to get on medicaid, welfare and food stamps.  Meanwhile, the pastor owned a different vehicle for each day of the week - after all, he was the MOG.  Once, when asking for a raise, I was told "If you bring in enough tithing people, we can give you a raise."  The result of my effort?  I was told to stop visiting because people were starting to become loyal to me instead of the preeeeeeeeacher.  When I tried getting a second job, I was told I had to choose between God or self, working for the church or x company.  I needed to be available at any time as a full time staff member.  In true Hyles fashion, if you had a life emergency, you could go to the preacher, ask for prayer, and wait to see if preacher (the god of the church) answered.

I understand missions.  I understand giving your all for God.  While working for a church that was going through a split, my family and I went 4 months without any guaranteed income.  It was a choice we made and God provided.  However, when there is plenty of money and the pastor is more than wealthy.........

To all the pastors:  PAY YOUR STAFF!

Wow!  You worked for some real boneheads!

You can say that again.  Worse, I really thought I was serving God by not caring for my family.  But, when the only reality you have ever known in your life is FBCH, it may not be until your forties that you start to figure things out.  By then, of course, your finances are crap and you just start teaching your kids a better way.  Better to let the abuse of the megalomaniac end with me than my children be affected in the same way.

Do you still attend a IB church?

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I grew up at FBCH, graduated from HAC and worked nearly 20 years for Hyles cronies.

Jack Hyles purposely paid people less than a livable wage.  He proclaimed from the pulpit that church and school staff should not ever be paid so much that they are not dependent upon God.  This was one of his foundational principles for management.  He was afraid that if people got too much money, they would become content and no longer dependent upon God.  In reality, he wanted people dependent upon him.  His cronies used the same philosophy.

Staff were paid almost enough to make all their bills, if they were very diligent to watch sales, and didn't mind eating Ramen Noodles often.  When an event occurred in life (car breaking down, etc), they would need to "ask for prayer" from the pastor who would decide if God had a blessing to give them or not.  Of course, the pastor or church was to be praised for graciously allowing God to use them to meet this need.  In reality, this was a method of manipulation designed and perfected by a megalomaniac.  All of these cronies want the staff to be dependent upon themselves and nothing else.

I have worked for these megalomaniac MOGs.  At one location, I dared to ask what my pay would be.  I was simply told "If God wants you here, you will have enough money to make it."  I took the job.  I wanted what God wanted.  I worked for nearly a decade at a place where I remained in below poverty wages, even though I was responsible for a family.  When asked about increase to a livable wage, I was told to get on medicaid, welfare and food stamps.  Meanwhile, the pastor owned a different vehicle for each day of the week - after all, he was the MOG.  Once, when asking for a raise, I was told "If you bring in enough tithing people, we can give you a raise."  The result of my effort?  I was told to stop visiting because people were starting to become loyal to me instead of the preeeeeeeeacher.  When I tried getting a second job, I was told I had to choose between God or self, working for the church or x company.  I needed to be available at any time as a full time staff member.  In true Hyles fashion, if you had a life emergency, you could go to the preacher, ask for prayer, and wait to see if preacher (the god of the church) answered.

I understand missions.  I understand giving your all for God.  While working for a church that was going through a split, my family and I went 4 months without any guaranteed income.  It was a choice we made and God provided.  However, when there is plenty of money and the pastor is more than wealthy.........

To all the pastors:  PAY YOUR STAFF!

Wow!  You worked for some real boneheads!

You can say that again.  Worse, I really thought I was serving God by not caring for my family.  But, when the only reality you have ever known in your life is FBCH, it may not be until your forties that you start to figure things out.  By then, of course, your finances are crap and you just start teaching your kids a better way.  Better to let the abuse of the megalomaniac end with me than my children be affected in the same way.

Do you still attend a IB church?

When I am asked to preach in one.

I am not a member of an FBCH modeled IFB church.  I want nothing to do with that group any more.  The decision to leave this group had more to do with the sexual perversion, performance based Christianity, pride, lack of Biblical teaching, easy prayerism conversions, lack of counseling, and other such things way before the pay scale thing.

 

[RAIDER]

Your experience is not the norm, Raider.

It is if you are around HAC grads that are not stinkin' Hackers!