Deceit

kaba said:
Vince Massi said:
The year after Vineyard's Gangsters were expelled, HAC realized that they were gong to have to do a better cover-up. Max Helton made the first try, and I was present when we laughed him down in chapel. Dr. Evans did better. He got us to promise not to tell anyone the names of the gang members, so that their ministries would not be destroyed.

All of us, including me, made the promise. I didn't trealize what I was doing. I was promising to help them deceive churches in the future. I was helping them to disobey the Biblical commands to go back and make things right with their victims. And I wasn´t informed that the slanders that Jim Vineyard had attached to the records of students who opposed gang violence would remain on the records.

Deceit was and is a major policy of HAC.
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I dont understand, in a post not too long ago you were saying that Dr Evans was one of the best Christians you knew. But yet, now you are saying he caused you guys to cover up evil.  Not sure why someone would glorify him then.
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Kaba, Dr. Evans kept Vineyard from expelling me, and also helped me in other áreas over the years. I THINK that when they wanted to carry out sin from the pulpit, they had Evans do it because he was known for his genuine Godliness.

Evil communications corrupt good manners; it doesn't say that they might or they can. It says that they do. But Evans was the only person in leadership who tried to stop the gang violence. He has been ridiculed in both the first and second FFF for trying to stop the gang violence.
 
RAIDER said:
Vince Massi said:
The year after Vineyard's Gangsters were expelled, HAC realized that they were gong to have to do a better cover-up. Max Helton made the first try, and I was present when we laughed him down in chapel. Dr. Evans did better. He got us to promise not to tell anyone the names of the gang members, so that their ministries would not be destroyed.

All of us, including me, made the promise. I didn't trealize what I was doing. I was promising to help them deceive churches in the future. I was helping them to disobey the Biblical commands to go back and make things right with their victims. And I wasn´t informed that the slanders that Jim Vineyard had attached to the records of students who opposed gang violence would remain on the records.

Deceit was and is a major policy of HAC.
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Two questions: 

1)  Who were Vineyard's gangsters?

2)  Who were those chosen to be in the Who's Who?
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I am beginning to think that the title of this thread should be changed to "Delusion".
 
Vineyard's Gangsters were only a sideshow, mainly because the students brought it to a stop after several months. But the students weren't told about Dave Hyles' immorality.

The Dave Hyles scandal may well be what brought the house down. In my last Spring Program before I graduated, we averaged over 40,000, and numbers continued to grow after that. When the janitor's son in Texas found the briefcase full of pornographic potos (including some of Dave) the decline began.

Regardless of when Jack knew, the solution was as painful as it was obvious: Jack needed to get into the pulpit and come clean. Instead, the church began a campaign of criticizing anyone who made an issue out of the sin, while they frantically tried to get Dave to straighten out. When Dave would not go back to those he had wronged, they announced that he had been "restored" by the Holy Spirit. This unscriptural "restoration" excused Dave from obeying the Scriptures, and it justified FBCH in disobeying the Scriptures.
 
Vince Massi said:
Vineyard's Gangsters were only a sideshow, mainly because the students brought it to a stop after several months. But the students weren't told about Dave Hyles' immorality.

The Dave Hyles scandal may well be what brought the house down. In my last Spring Program before I graduated, we averaged over 40,000, and numbers continued to grow after that. When the janitor's son in Texas found the briefcase full of pornographic potos (including some of Dave) the decline began.

Regardless of when Jack knew, the solution was as painful as it was obvious: Jack needed to get into the pulpit and come clean. Instead, the church began a campaign of criticizing anyone who made an issue out of the sin, while they frantically tried to get Dave to straighten out. When Dave would not go back to those he had wronged, they announced that he had been "restored" by the Holy Spirit. This unscriptural "restoration" excused Dave from obeying the Scriptures, and it justified FBCH in disobeying the Scriptures.
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"But the students weren't told about Dave Hyles' immorality" - Really?

So you were in school for 10 years??  You said you were at HAC when it started in 72 and now you say you were there when DH left to go to Texas?  Who is the "they" trying to get DH to "straighten out"?  "the church began a campaign of criticizing..." - was this announced during a Wednesday night or what?  "they announced that he had been "restored" - who did that?  When?
 
Grid, you need to stop throwing accusations. I clearly stated that Dave was in Texas when the scandal broke. I did not state that I was at HAC when Dave was in Texas. After one of his restorations, they brought him to HAC, where he received an ovation from the students when they announced that he had been restored. He preached a dynamite sermón and returned to his immorality.
 
FBCH went for years denying that Dave Hyles was inmoral. Then, when he got caught, they insisted that he had been restored and was exempt from obeying God's commands about dealing with his sin. The church spent years accusing Dave's critics of being hard-hearted and judgmental. They were accused of being unforgiving.

But new scandals kept appearing as Dave continued with new immoralities. Finally, someone got up at HAC chapel and announced that they weren't going to get hung up on something that had happened thirty years ago. But it hadn't happened thirty years ago. They had been bad-mouthing the people who told the truth twenty years ago. And ten years ago. And five years ago.. And one year ago. And the church is disobeying the Biblical commands to make those things right today.


The Dave Hyles scandal isn't over. TODAY, the church is disobeying the Biblical commands to make things right with the people they attacked who were telling the truth.
 
Have you ever wondered why Jack Hyles has such a bad testimony? One reason is found in Romans 12:19 "...Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

In the fifth year of HAC, they didn't have enough room in the dorms. Suddenly, a bunch of the more trustworthy students, including me, were rounded up, ordered to pack, and were driven across the state line to the Balmoral Hotel in Illinois. We weren't asked and we didn't volunteer. Determined to have a good testimony, the college made us keep our rooms spotless, while they did not provide us with adequate bus transportation.

We were plainly told that any demerits we got for not keeping the romos clean would be attached permanently to our records. In a Sunday evening service, Jack Hyles thundered out that they meant it; demerits for not keeping our rooms clean would be a permanent part of our records. Well, it worked. The fact that many of us were working, that we lost extra hours in transportation, and that transportation was inadequate were not counted.

And HAC got a great testimony for the good care we took of the rooms.

Decades later, I took a doctorate level course at Clemson University that was offered free to high school science teachers. My faculty adviser asked me to sit down, and he kept looking at me funny as he asked me about HAC. Finally he asked if I had ever seen my college transcript. He handed it to me, and there was every demerit I had ever received for dorm duties. There was also a slander from Jim Vineyard for opposing gang violence. Nothing about my being a bus captain, youth worker, Sunday School teacher, and assistant to two staff members.

Jack got a great testimony for the way we took care of the Balmoral Hotel. The students who earned that good testimony got a bad testimony. "...Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
 
Vince, you chose where to go to college.  You stayed in what you claim was an abusive situation.  After college you left and went to work for the guy that was behind the abuse.  A few of the claims you make have been made by others.  A lot of what you say is "new information" to most of us.  You make comments about students but give no names.  When people follow up your posts with a question, you many times ignore the question.  From time-to-time you contradict yourself.  You confuse me.
 
RAIDER said:
Vince, you chose where to go to college.  You stayed in what you claim was an abusive situation.  After college you left and went to work for the guy that was behind the abuse.  A few of the claims you make have been made by others.  A lot of what you say is "new information" to most of us.  You make comments about students but give no names.  When people follow up your posts with a question, you many times ignore the question.  From time-to-time you contradict yourself.  You confuse me.
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Exactly RAIDER!!!!!
 
Raider, not only did I choose to go to HAC, but God clearly called me there. That does not change the fact that having violent gangs, keeping false records, and abusing students is wrong. Of course I'm giving new information; I was there in the opening years, and HAC has strongly followed a policy of covering-up sin. I saw things that later students did not see. Students who attended later are posting information that I did not know; that's what happens when people give eyewitness testimony.

I chose to stay because I was being blessed by Jack's sermons, was succeeding in Christian service, and was growing spiritually. I prayed about it at the time and God clearly told me to stay. I was tricked in a chapel service into promising not to reveal the names of Vineyard's Gangsters; but revealing their names would not accomplish anything good that I can see. I do not give the names of students because I do not seek revenge; giving their names would not help people in dealing with the problems they are having from attending HAC.

And I do not argue with people who give eyewitness testimony about events they did not observe.
 
Vince Massi said:
but revealing their names would not accomplish anything good that I can see. I do not give the names of students because I do not seek revenge; giving their names would not help people in dealing with the problems they are having from attending HAC.
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Yet you started a thread titled "Jim Vineyard" and you continue to reference "Jack"????
 
qwerty said:
Sherryh said:
Tell who the 8 students are...my yearbooks are packed away...
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How about just one.....
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He can't.  He is Vineyard trained which means there is always another side to the story or more to the story then is being told.  It "can't" be revealed and those wanting to know are told to stay in their own circle because it is none of their business.  It is a tactic mastered by those who have learned the art of controlling people.    JAV is a master at it and passed it down to his flunkies.

And time usually shows that there never was "another side to the story"
 
Just me said:
qwerty said:
Sherryh said:
Tell who the 8 students are...my yearbooks are packed away...
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How about just one.....
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He can't.  He is Vineyard trained which means there is always another side to the story or more to the story then is being told.  It "can't" be revealed and those wanting to know are told to stay in their own circle because it is none of their business.  It is a tactic mastered by those who have learned the art of controlling people.    JAV is a master at it and passed it down to his flunkies.

And time usually shows that there never was "another side to the story"
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I arrived at HAC a couple of years after JV left.  There were still stories (mostly bus related) being told.  I am not a JV fan.  Vince obviously has an ax to grind.  I guess this is a good place to do it!  :)
 
RAIDER said:
Just me said:
qwerty said:
Sherryh said:
Tell who the 8 students are...my yearbooks are packed away...
Click to expand...

How about just one.....
Click to expand...

He can't.  He is Vineyard trained which means there is always another side to the story or more to the story then is being told.  It "can't" be revealed and those wanting to know are told to stay in their own circle because it is none of their business.  It is a tactic mastered by those who have learned the art of controlling people.    JAV is a master at it and passed it down to his flunkies.

And time usually shows that there never was "another side to the story"
Click to expand...

I arrived at HAC a couple of years after JV left.  There were still stories (mostly bus related) being told.  I am not a JV fan.  Vince obviously has an ax to grind.  I guess this is a good place to do it!  :)
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I am only pointing out that Vince clearly learned from JAV and still uses his techniques 30 to 40 years later.  Despite claiming to dispise Vineyard.
 
Just me said:
RAIDER said:
Just me said:
qwerty said:
Sherryh said:
Tell who the 8 students are...my yearbooks are packed away...
Click to expand...

How about just one.....
Click to expand...

He can't.  He is Vineyard trained which means there is always another side to the story or more to the story then is being told.  It "can't" be revealed and those wanting to know are told to stay in their own circle because it is none of their business.  It is a tactic mastered by those who have learned the art of controlling people.    JAV is a master at it and passed it down to his flunkies.

And time usually shows that there never was "another side to the story"
Click to expand...

I arrived at HAC a couple of years after JV left.  There were still stories (mostly bus related) being told.  I am not a JV fan.  Vince obviously has an ax to grind.  I guess this is a good place to do it!  :)
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I am only pointing out that Vince clearly learned from JAV and still uses his techniques 30 to 40 years later.  Despite claiming to dispise Vineyard.
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I definitely hear you.
 
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