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Wow...but, using your reasoning, aren't you supposed to "refrain from all appearance of evil?" One might thing you're soliciting a hooker, stripper, of doing something nefarious!
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You keep putting a lot of your ASSumptions on the table here...Got any proof that he's doing these things?
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Dr. Huk-N-Duck
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More rule-skirting cute spelling, I see.
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Dr. Huk-N-Duck
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Whatever you say, Joe.
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Wow....avoiding the subject...typical of your generation....continuously implying by never proving...then hiding behind diversions.....Geesh...go figure.More rule-skirting cute spelling, I see.
(Poking the bear here! LOL )
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Dr. Huk-N-Duck
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You really don’t like younger generations, do you?Wow....avoiding the subject...typical of your generation....continuously implying by never proving...then hiding behind diversions.....Geesh...go figure.
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and that;s what i meant when i mentioned other kinds of bars.... not all bars are equal.... in fact - here in hawaii if the place you are describing served food of any kind.... (other than just chips and salsa)... and if there was no bouncer watching the door and no prohibition on people under the age of 18 or 21 entering..... then it would not even be considered a bar at all... it would be more of a grill or a diner with a liquor license, and which offered live music as well.... ... families with children would be welcome, and most would probably feel very comfortable there....
however....... if a family.. or if anyone - took children into the kinds of places i was talking about... and which i was taken into as a child.... in fact... if they were even allowed in the door and then could sit down with their kids at a table and feel right at home....(especially once the entertainment started - as if the pictures on the walls shouldn;t have given them a clue)... . then not only should their commitment to Christ be questioned but proper authorities should be alerted as well....
there are some fundamentalists out there who will not sit down to eat a meal in any establishment that serves alcohol.... they would be out of luck finding a place other than mcdonalds or taco bell to eat at here..... but i also know of fundamentalist leaning christians who would have no problem eating there but who would never order the alcoholic drinks... and who... like the subject of the article... would probably not want to work there themselves... and especailly not be expected to serve the alcohol either... or even be part of the musical entertainment... ...each has to decide for themselves... .. but personally, i know that if i wouldn;t think it right to take a child into a particular place then i shouldn;t feel comfortable there either.... ..but that;s just me....
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so..... along the same lines of this subject..... performing music... . but on a slight and temporary diversion... (apparently our generation does that you know..
..) ... what would your opinion be of a saved by grace through faith in Christ, christian .. that occasionally volunteers to sing in an ensemble of a church that most baptists would never be seen standing in front of - believes the members of it are not even saved.... and a church which even makes some baptists cringe at the sound of it;s name?..... ....... or put another way..... could it be acceptable for a baptist or similarly believing christian to take part in the activities of a church considered pagan or idolatrous?..... ..could taking part ..or just simply being there to sit with other saved and like minded christians ...who are actual members.... be considered an opportunity for ministry?
to what extent should christian separation go?...... and should christians who believe in secondary separation - separation themselves even from that individual who sees no problem occasionally serving in this other church?........
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Dr. Huk-N-Duck
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Speaking for myself…I’m definitely not a separatist by any religious conviction when it comes to what you’re describing. Even when it comes to alcohol, I’ve already said I don’t view it as a sin to have an occasional glass of wine or whatever. Although I quit drinking a few years ago, I understand many people have an occasional beverage.so..... along the same lines of this subject..... performing music... . but on a slight and temporary diversion... (apparently our generation does that you know..
or put another way..... could it be acceptable for a baptist or similarly believing christian to take part in the activities of a church considered pagan or idolatrous?..... ..could taking part ..or just simply being there to sit with other saved and like minded christians ...who are actual members.... be considered an opportunity for ministry?
to what extent should christian separation go?...... and should christians who believe in secondary separation - separation themselves even from that individual who sees no problem occasionally serving in this other church?........
To me…I think it depends on intent. If someone is going to an establishment for the purpose of ministering, obviously that qualifies as ministry, regardless of the location. We know Jesus reached out to the outcasts of society.
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Dr. Huk-N-Duck
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Where I live, a bar is an establishment that requires “21 or over.” They rarely serve food, and sometimes the rules are skirted by having a food truck outside the establishment, or a very nearby restaurant that delivers food into the bar.
You know, I really think people are missing the entire point here! His desire is to finish up with his Seminary training and pursue "Full-Time Ministry" whatever that may happen to be in his near future! People leave secular professions all the time to serve the Lord in this capacity and it is not a matter to be taken lightly nor is it anything to be second-guessed by naysayers, busybodies, and others who do not know the man! No offense to anyone here, I am just stating facts! If his desire is to give his life in service to the Lord, I rejoice in this matter and I will be holding him up in prayer! I hope others do as well!
Seriously, it has been a true spiritual battle during my seminary studies and I am often questioning what in the world I am doing and why I am doing this so I can only imagine this gentleman is going through some very similar struggles!
Seriously, it has been a true spiritual battle during my seminary studies and I am often questioning what in the world I am doing and why I am doing this so I can only imagine this gentleman is going through some very similar struggles!
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what.... have you been away from the FFF for so long that you forgot how it works?...... discussions frequently drift off topic here .... and since it didnt bother the person who started this thread to see other aspects of this mans former career and decision for the ministry being discussed ,.... why should it rankle your feathers?.. ... and why should we care if it does?.....
besides... you took the conversation off course yourself here in your second post of thread - talking about CMA types and bikers.. the infamous "bandidos" that even i heard about when i was a kid being dragged into bars by my mom.. ... have you ever seen the ones i was talking about in one of the bars you played at?.... the guys with "california" emblazoned on the lower back of their jackets and "hells angels" across the shoulders?.... i only brought up people like that because you did - - thought it might be pertinent to your part of the conversation....
i don;t know what the source of your spiritual battles are and i never studied for full time ministry in a seminary either... . the part time ministries i work in are involved with getting homeless families into shelter .... chronic and mentally ill homeless the help they need... and getting trafficked teenagers off the street - while presenting the gospel to all of them...... .. don;t have to know much greek or whatever else they teach you in seminary.. other than the value of prayer.. to be useful in that...
but i can tell you with some certainty that until you learn the value of gentle persuasion and the proper ways of speaking to people you are trying to guide and redirect... versus trying to nag them into submission with sanctimonious scolding. .. ..you will continue to go through battles and struggles - of many different kinds... . some of which will overwhelm you... ... ..
and i am not saying all this to offend you either... i have seen many people come out to the street with us with a desire to help... only to revert to anger and speaking in a hostile tone when they got frustrated with how things were going... eventually they are confronted by the very people we are trying to help with words they never expected to hear... , as well as some variation of what i asked you at the end of the first paragraph above.. .....what is your problem?... and why should i care?....
try turning the conversation around or getting anywhere with someone you are trying to minister to.... especially the unchurched or unsaved... once you have driven onto that dead end street......
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Dr. Huk-N-Duck
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I think he also missed the entire point of our “conversation drift,” which was directly related to the original article, which is the fact that the ex-country singer didn’t think continuing to follow the old path of a country star qualified as “ministry,” despite what he was being told by a few preachers.
It digressed into a "Can't a Christian play music and minister in bars?" argument and perhaps they may but it is very difficult and opportunities are very few and far between. You don't get to go into bars with your "guns ablazing" and preaching out of your King James Bible! This will go over like a lead balloon which I believe is pretty much a "Captain Obvious" statement.
Can a Christian play secular music in bar bands? I did for several years and the Lord allowed me to do so for a season then he started making me feel really uneasy, uncomfortable, and then downright miserable and no longer having any fun! God restored me to fellowship with him and showered his grace upon me in measures far beyond what I ever deserved. He brought a very special lady back into my life who encouraged me to follow Christ and vice versa! We found ourselves back in Church, back in leadership, and back to following a serious path towards ministry! I wouldn't trade what I have right now for anything and I am guessing this country star feels exactly the same way. He is certainly catching a good bit of grief from walking away from a lucrative career in Country music. May God help anyone who discourages one of his children from serving him!
You would likely never see Hells Angels and Bandidos in the same bar or even in the same city! They are not at war with each other but they are most certainly RIVAL clubs and being in the other's territory is an act of hostility. Most certainly not my world but also begs the question: Can a Christian be a member of a 1%er Motorcycle Club? What is a Hells Angel or Bandido to do when they come to faith in Christ? The motorcycle club is their whole world and they are expected to put it above everything else. Their Club meetings are commonly called "Church" which tells you what sort of devotion is expected! Perhaps 1 Cor 7:24 is applicable but to what extent? I would say the music and entertainment world has similar demands or at least it very much has a hold upon you and is very hard to walk away from! Christ makes it quite clear: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (Mt 16:24).
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i agree with you on that point.... and like i said... i fully undestand the decision this man made.... ... in fact i completely support him on it...... i don;t believe anyone studying and training for full time christian ministry should be playing music in a bar...... or be conflicted in any way especially if that way includes secular intertainment or an activity that could be viewed as unethical or questionable... . and i understand too well the difficulty of trying to make it through a college program and deal with distractions and negative influences at the same time.... ...
but he would still have to make money and earn his way through school in one way or another and i can see a problem and conflict coming up there too if he didn;t have another way to do that.... ....... unless someone is paying his way or he is independently rich, he will have to come up with money ..a way to make a living.... and i can;t imagine it;s good for a pastor to go into the ministry with a huge monetary debt over his head....... .. but maybe some do.... i really don;t know.......
as far as other christians and whether or not they could patronize a bar and consider being there part of a ministry at the same time.... i guess it would depend on the bar....... if it;s the kind i know of and which you wrote about, then i say absolutely not.... .. but if it;s something closer to a grill that just happens to serve alcohol and have a live band too..... then i would have to say i don;t know... i would think that if a christian would not take their children into a place.. and especially if they would be ashamed for their mom or dad to see them there... then they probably should not be in there either.... ...unless they are in there as part of an emergency rescue operation.. or a police officer on the job...
the anti-valentines day parties we use to have were in places that had bars and restaurants together.... most nicer places here do.... but children were present on both sides of it.. ... and i don;t remember anyone there ever being visibly drunk... some of the women that came to that party did order drinks... ...but none of us who did the planning - set it all up - or who were the regulars at it every year drank... ... because the party lasted all night and ended about an hour before sunrise when we would grab our surfboards and hit the waves - to do what;s called "surfing the dawn patrol"... ..going out there with even one drink in your system is a good way to assure you don;t make it back.....
in the world of emergency response it;s a common saying that if you can be happy doing some other job then do it... but if saving lives and making the positive difference in others is in your blood you won;t be happy anywhere else.. .. it;s a life of service that requires sacrifices most people have no comprehension of... .. .. . and i;m sure it;s the same with the ministry.... maybe even more so..... if God has called you to do that with your life then He won;t let you be comfortable following some other path.. and He wants you looking forward and dedicated to it with everything you have..... and if necessary He will even make you despise distractions and hinderances to what He has called you to do.... ..
denying oneself sometimes becomes denying those close to you as well - even if they are unable to understand at that moment why you can;t be where they want you to be.... or even where they need you to be at some given time.... ..you can never despise them but at those times they might think you do... i;m not in the ministry and have never been a first responder myself... but i finished growing up as the child of one.. and i understand that side of it very well . .
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A few Banditos ride through Lewiston once in a while. I've ridden past the HA clubhouse in Spokane. It's painted in HA colors but it looks abandoned. I didn't dawdle around to check it out.
There is a little interaction between CMA and 1%ers. Our state coordinator, Tom, is in touch with some HA guys. HA puts on community oriented events; I guess they are trying to keep themselves legitimate in the public eye and keep the heat off. They sometimes call Tom asking for volunteers for their more civic events. HA recognizes CMA is a ministry, not a club, therefore we're not invading their turf. We aren't out to cause trouble and we can be quite helpful at times. (Our motto, "Here if you need us.") Tom is very selective about who he asks to work with them. He reminds us, "You aren't going to lead one to the Lord... you're just there as a witness and a servant."
As I alluded to in an earlier post, 1%ers know CMA and they know CMAs code of conduct. If someone from CMA is in violation of their code or otherwise disrespecting their own colors, a 1%er has been known to pull their "cut" (vest with a patch) and inform a leader. Respect (or their concept of it) is part of the culture.
A guy I've known that came to Christ from that background quietly left and was never heard from in those circles. He never divulged what club he was part of. Only after he passed away did my pastor tell me he told him what club he was part of.
Yes, there would be a conflict of loyalty if one of them came to Christ. Typically, they do so when they become disillusioned by the life; when they put their heart and soul into it and it lets them down. IOW, if they become a believer, they were typically on the outs with the club already.
Then there's Warriors of the Cross... a Christian version of 1% er MCs. They're an interesting bunch. There is a chapter here in town and their president and I talk occasionally.
All that to say, Christians and MCs? It's complicated.
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Dr. Huk-N-Duck
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He’s got an estimated net worth of around 6 million dollars, so I think he’s okay. He wasn’t Garth Brooks or anything, but he definitely already had enough success that he’s quite comfortable.
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Oh, I like THEM just fine...it's their stupidity and twisted views I don't like.You really don’t like younger generations, do you?
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It's the same in most of the mainland. We frequent several places that serve alcohol, but they have food, and even have separate rooms for gatherings. They're considered a "bar and grill. "
My 1/2 sister was a "pole dancer" in Louisville, KY, and there were times she had to take her kids to work with her. They sat in the section where they couldn't see the nudity but were still able to see people being served alcohol. I'm pretty sure they knew what was going on since their mother practiced her "craft" at home on the pole she had in her living room.
One of the professors in the first Bible college I attended flew in once a week from New Mexico...in one of his chapel sermons, he states that he would eat in a "Burly-Q" if they served a good enough steak. I won't give his name since he's passed on, but I can tell you he was one of the strangest IFB pastors I had ever met.
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Dr. Huk-N-Duck
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Come on Joe…you’re still too young to turn into this guyOh, I like THEM just fine...it's their stupidity and twisted views I don't like.
