Bizarre Numbers

[RebeccasRants]

What I want to know is how many converts have the "big name" preachers had saved and baptized and now are members of their home church?  I'm thinking of one conference preacher in particular who stresses soul winning, but his stories are all about people he meets on the road, in the airport, and never about people he has led to the Lord and discipled in his own home church (which is also my home church).

Believe me, I grew up in a church that many famous (in our small circles) evangelists attended, I never saw them on visitation.  I'm not claiming they never went, but I never saw them.  Neither did I ever see them walk a convert down the aisle.

 

[RebeccasRants]

Was it a new church where the pastor and other staff were also living on a shoestring or was it a situation where the pastor had a good paycheck, housing, car, bill and expenses paid and asked his staff to live below federal min. wage?

God will supply, I have seen it time after time but no one should be expected to live like that. Even a missionary should have proper support before they go to the field. God expects us to care for our families.
[/quote]

No, it was not a new church.  It had been around 50 or more years, but the pastor received missionary support instead of a paid salary (Hispanic church in AZ).  I think other teachers were paid more than me because they considered me like a slightly paid volunteer, but I taught more that year that the fully paid teacher who for weeks rarely showed up.  I'm not bitter 'cause God was too good to us!  It was a great start to the grand adventure of living by faith and seeing God supply!  God is so creative!

 

[16KJV11]

Just because You haven't meet a "famous" preacher's convert doesn't mean they didn't go soul winning, or lead someone to the Lord.

Listen carefully to their stories.  Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.  When they go months without talking about someone they met outside of church who had trusted Christ or is visiting in church now, they don't go soul winning.  When all of their illustrations about visitation are from long ago, they don't go soul winning.  When their only stories of seeing people saved comes from events in the office or at the church, they don't go soul winning.

Get the idea?

Doh!

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

Now look who's bi-vocational!

 

[RebeccasRants]

Remember that I atended HAC at the very beginning, when the list of heroes was different.

I often met my converts when bus visiting, but I had one occasion, when I  met a convert years later. He was glad to see me (I didn´t remember him) and was enrolled in a Bible college. Granted, I might have met converts from the following list who didn´t inform me, but here goes:

I had a HAC room mate who was saved under Jack Hyles' preaching. I have never met another convert of Jack Hyles.

I have never met a convert of John R. Rice.
I have never met a convert of Lee Roberson.
I have never met a convert of Jerry Falwell.
I have never met a convert of R. G. Lee.
I have never met a convert of Bob Jones Sr., Jr., or the III.
I have never met a convert of John Rawlings.
I have never met a convert of Rex Humbard.

In addition to myself, I have met two converts of Billy Graham. Do the math, Folks.

I have met converts of Dr. John R. Rice:  my cousins whom he led to the Lord at my parents' wedding  I have met converts of Mrs. John R. Rice as she was quite a soul winner as well.  She would witness to people anywhere!
I have met a convert of Bro. Lee Roberson:  my pastor for many years Bro. Bob Kelley
I have met a convert of Jerry Fallwell I think:  Toby Weaver who was either saved by him or under his ministry
By the way, I read a bio of Bro. Fallwell which stated that when he started his church he knocked on 100 doors every day for weeks!!!!

 

[Vince Massi]

To this day, I am aggravated at Curtis Hudson´s story of how he built his church. His first church met in a double-wide mobile home, and at his first meeting with the local Southern Baptist Convention, the leaders divided the city among the churches. Every church was required to stay out of every other church´s territory. When they were done, a dismayed Curtis Hudson asked where his territory was. The laughing spokesman gave him a tiny area that ended at a nearby oak tree. Hudson announced that he would go anywhere in the city where someone needed to be saved and walked out of the Convention and never looked back.

Along with the other students, I cheered and applauded. The problem? Hudson didn´t tell us that his church didn´t grow from soul-winning alone. Godly Southern Baptists who wanted to do something with their lives started attending his church. God proviides churches with spiritual gifts, and brand-new saints aren´t up to par yet.

I was soul-winning with Jim Craw (who actually built the world´s largest bus route) and he told me of how he had stolen over half the membership of a small church and persuaded them to attend First Baptist, where they could do something with their lives. Wally Beebe, the bus director, had approved his actions.

Over the decades, I have seen that whenever a small church grows into a medium-sized church, most of its members were already saved and had transferred in from other churches. The people might have been fleeing problems, might have wanted to do something with their lives, might have been attracted by preaching that wasn´t boring, might have wanted a better program for their children, etc., but their Godliness had originated elsewhere.

Check the list of America´s 100 largest churches and you'll notice that most of them are in the Bible belt. Then you'll know where most of their membership comes from.

Of course there are people attending churches where they actually got saved. But HAC should have told us that the initial growth of those churches, as well as their strogest members, came from other churches.

 

[tobytyler]

We had a guy who transferred in at the beginning. He was very friendly, very Godly, and a genuine spiritual leader--he even married one of the Lewis sisters. The year after he graduated, an enraged Max Helton blasted us from the chapel pulpit for not being Godly enough, because the guy was on welfare and had quit the ministry.

How many Lewis sisters are there?  David Nelms married one.  Chris Carter married one and I want to say Eugene Hayden married one (might be mistaken about that one).

There are six sisters.  Four sang in the "Lewis Sisters" group, then there were two younger sisters, one of whom married the Colsten's son, Jeff.

 

[kaba]

Was it a new church where the pastor and other staff were also living on a shoestring or was it a situation where the pastor had a good paycheck, housing, car, bill and expenses paid and asked his staff to live below federal min. wage?

God will supply, I have seen it time after time but no one should be expected to live like that. Even a missionary should have proper support before they go to the field. God expects us to care for our families.

No, it was not a new church.  It had been around 50 or more years, but the pastor received missionary support instead of a paid salary (Hispanic church in AZ).  I think other teachers were paid more than me because they considered me like a slightly paid volunteer, but I taught more that year that the fully paid teacher who for weeks rarely showed up.  I'm not bitter 'cause God was too good to us!  It was a great start to the grand adventure of living by faith and seeing God supply!  God is so creative!
[/quote]

Bob Kelley was my sister's Pastor in Columbia, SC. Loved to listen to him speak.  Since he passed away the church has slowly lost members. The current Pastor is horrible! I always enjoyed listen to Pastor Kelley.

 

[16KJV11]

To this day, I am aggravated at Curtis Hudson´s story of how he built his church. His first church met in a double-wide mobile home, and at his first meeting with the local Southern Baptist Convention, the leaders divided the city among the churches. Every church was required to stay out of every other church´s territory. When they were done, a dismayed Curtis Hudson asked where his territory was. The laughing spokesman gave him a tiny area that ended at a nearby oak tree. Hudson announced that he would go anywhere in the city where someone needed to be saved and walked out of the Convention and never looked back.

Along with the other students, I cheered and applauded. The problem? Hudson didn´t tell us that his church didn´t grow from soul-winning alone. Godly Southern Baptists who wanted to do something with their lives started attending his church. God proviides churches with spiritual gifts, and brand-new saints aren´t up to par yet.

I was soul-winning with Jim Craw (who actually built the world´s largest bus route) and he told me of how he had stolen over half the membership of a small church and persuaded them to attend First Baptist, where they could do something with their lives. Wally Beebe, the bus director, had approved his actions.

Over the decades, I have seen that whenever a small church grows into a medium-sized church, most of its members were already saved and had transferred in from other churches. The people might have been fleeing problems, might have wanted to do something with their lives, might have been attracted by preaching that wasn´t boring, might have wanted a better program for their children, etc., but their Godliness had originated elsewhere.

Check the list of America´s 100 largest churches and you'll notice that most of them are in the Bible belt. Then you'll know where most of their membership comes from.

Of course there are people attending churches where they actually got saved. But HAC should have told us that the initial growth of those churches, as well as their strogest members, came from other churches.

I have been a Christian for many years and I attest to what you say.

 

[Vince Massi]

Thank you, 16KJV11. I am a great admirer of John R. Rice and consider his book "Prayer: Asking and Receiving" to be one of the greatest books ever written. I am convinced that all of these men witnessed faithfully to others. But there is a problem with "Easy Believism," the doctrine that if you say the words "Jesús, please save me," and mean it, you are saved. There is no need for repentance, and no need for evidence of a new birth afterwards.

I'm afraid that all of these men believed in easy Believism, and many of their professions were not genuine. Billy Graham, Incidentally, was the king of easy believers, and it's a good thing that I was a Catholic, or I would not have known that I was going to Hell.

 

[patriotic]

To this day, I am aggravated at Curtis Hudson´s story of how he built his church. His first church met in a double-wide mobile home, and at his first meeting with the local Southern Baptist Convention, the leaders divided the city among the churches. Every church was required to stay out of every other church´s territory. When they were done, a dismayed Curtis Hudson asked where his territory was. The laughing spokesman gave him a tiny area that ended at a nearby oak tree. Hudson announced that he would go anywhere in the city where someone needed to be saved and walked out of the Convention and never looked back.

Along with the other students, I cheered and applauded. The problem? Hudson didn´t tell us that his church didn´t grow from soul-winning alone. Godly Southern Baptists who wanted to do something with their lives started attending his church. God proviides churches with spiritual gifts, and brand-new saints aren´t up to par yet.

I was soul-winning with Jim Craw (who actually built the world´s largest bus route) and he told me of how he had stolen over half the membership of a small church and persuaded them to attend First Baptist, where they could do something with their lives. Wally Beebe, the bus director, had approved his actions.

Over the decades, I have seen that whenever a small church grows into a medium-sized church, most of its members were already saved and had transferred in from other churches. The people might have been fleeing problems, might have wanted to do something with their lives, might have been attracted by preaching that wasn´t boring, might have wanted a better program for their children, etc., but their Godliness had originated elsewhere.

Check the list of America´s 100 largest churches and you'll notice that most of them are in the Bible belt. Then you'll know where most of their membership comes from.

Of course there are people attending churches where they actually got saved. But HAC should have told us that the initial growth of those churches, as well as their strogest members, came from other churches.

In many years of observation and participation in various ministries, I have noticed that when a church/pastor is faithful at proclaiming the Word of God and winning new "converts", God supplies the "older" Christians to help man the work and train the new.  These also help fund the work of bus ministry, etc., where those being ministered to do not self-support. 

Again, just observation.  No records, numbers, statistics to back my observations up.  My faith doesn't need all that. 

 

[4everfsu]

Thank you, 16KJV11. I am a great admirer of John R. Rice and consider his book "Prayer: Asking and Receiving" to be one of the greatest books ever written. I am convinced that all of these men witnessed faithfully to others. But there is a problem with "Easy Believism," the doctrine that if you say the words "Jesús, please save me," and mean it, you are saved. There is no need for repentance, and no need for evidence of a new birth afterwards.

I'm afraid that all of these men believed in easy Believism, and many of their professions were not genuine. Billy Graham, Incidentally, was the king of easy believers, and it's a good thing that I was a Catholic, or I would not have known that I was going to Hell.

So by your admission the thief on the cross and the man who said God be merciful to me a sinner are not saved according to your test of easy belief.

 

[kaba]

To this day, I am aggravated at Curtis Hudson´s story of how he built his church. His first church met in a double-wide mobile home, and at his first meeting with the local Southern Baptist Convention, the leaders divided the city among the churches. Every church was required to stay out of every other church´s territory. When they were done, a dismayed Curtis Hudson asked where his territory was. The laughing spokesman gave him a tiny area that ended at a nearby oak tree. Hudson announced that he would go anywhere in the city where someone needed to be saved and walked out of the Convention and never looked back.

Along with the other students, I cheered and applauded. The problem? Hudson didn´t tell us that his church didn´t grow from soul-winning alone. Godly Southern Baptists who wanted to do something with their lives started attending his church. God proviides churches with spiritual gifts, and brand-new saints aren´t up to par yet.

I was soul-winning with Jim Craw (who actually built the world´s largest bus route) and he told me of how he had stolen over half the membership of a small church and persuaded them to attend First Baptist, where they could do something with their lives. Wally Beebe, the bus director, had approved his actions.

Over the decades, I have seen that whenever a small church grows into a medium-sized church, most of its members were already saved and had transferred in from other churches. The people might have been fleeing problems, might have wanted to do something with their lives, might have been attracted by preaching that wasn´t boring, might have wanted a better program for their children, etc., but their Godliness had originated elsewhere.

Check the list of America´s 100 largest churches and you'll notice that most of them are in the Bible belt. Then you'll know where most of their membership comes from.

Of course there are people attending churches where they actually got saved. But HAC should have told us that the initial growth of those churches, as well as their strogest members, came from other churches.

In many years of observation and participation in various ministries, I have noticed that when a church/pastor is faithful at proclaiming the Word of God and winning new "converts", God supplies the "older" Christians to help man the work and train the new.  These also help fund the work of bus ministry, etc., where those being ministered to do not self-support. 

Again, just observation.  No records, numbers, statistics to back my observations up.  My faith doesn't need all that.

I agree with your observation!!

 

[16KJV11]

Thank you, 16KJV11. I am a great admirer of John R. Rice and consider his book "Prayer: Asking and Receiving" to be one of the greatest books ever written. I am convinced that all of these men witnessed faithfully to others. But there is a problem with "Easy Believism," the doctrine that if you say the words "Jesús, please save me," and mean it, you are saved. There is no need for repentance, and no need for evidence of a new birth afterwards.

I'm afraid that all of these men believed in easy Believism, and many of their professions were not genuine. Billy Graham, Incidentally, was the king of easy believers, and it's a good thing that I was a Catholic, or I would not have known that I was going to Hell.

Now, I don't know the difference between easy believism and hard believism.
I do know that the Bible says that "Whosoever calleth upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
But I agree that many churches aren't built on converts, but on mature Christians moving to that church from another area or another church.
That I have seen with my own two eyes.
And, to be honest, that is a good thing b/c new and immature believers need to see mature, seasoned believers living out their faith.
In my church, we don't have a lot of seasoned, mature Christians.
So, even if we do get any converts, and it's rare, there aren't many people that I could say:
Philippians 3:17 (KJV)
17  Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

 

[Vince Massi]

"So by your admission the thief on the cross and the man who said God be merciful to me a sinner are not saved according to your test of easy belief."

Valid point.

The Gospels tell us that both thieves were mocking Jesus. The repentant thief stopped his mocking, rebuked the other thief, publicly acknowledged that he deserved to be crucified, proclaimed Christ to the other thief, and was not repeating a prayer when he asked Christ to save him.

The repentant sinner in the Temple acknowledged to God that he was a sinner, and he acknowledged it repeatedly. He did not merely repeat a prayer.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

To this day, I am aggravated at Curtis Hudson´s story of how he built his church. His first church met in a double-wide mobile home, and at his first meeting with the local Southern Baptist Convention, the leaders divided the city among the churches. Every church was required to stay out of every other church´s territory. When they were done, a dismayed Curtis Hudson asked where his territory was. The laughing spokesman gave him a tiny area that ended at a nearby oak tree. Hudson announced that he would go anywhere in the city where someone needed to be saved and walked out of the Convention and never looked back.

Along with the other students, I cheered and applauded. The problem? Hudson didn´t tell us that his church didn´t grow from soul-winning alone. Godly Southern Baptists who wanted to do something with their lives started attending his church. God proviides churches with spiritual gifts, and brand-new saints aren´t up to par yet.

I was soul-winning with Jim Craw (who actually built the world´s largest bus route) and he told me of how he had stolen over half the membership of a small church and persuaded them to attend First Baptist, where they could do something with their lives. Wally Beebe, the bus director, had approved his actions.

Over the decades, I have seen that whenever a small church grows into a medium-sized church, most of its members were already saved and had transferred in from other churches. The people might have been fleeing problems, might have wanted to do something with their lives, might have been attracted by preaching that wasn´t boring, might have wanted a better program for their children, etc., but their Godliness had originated elsewhere.

Check the list of America´s 100 largest churches and you'll notice that most of them are in the Bible belt. Then you'll know where most of their membership comes from.

Of course there are people attending churches where they actually got saved. But HAC should have told us that the initial growth of those churches, as well as their strogest members, came from other churches.

In many years of observation and participation in various ministries, I have noticed that when a church/pastor is faithful at proclaiming the Word of God and winning new "converts", God supplies the "older" Christians to help man the work and train the new.  These also help fund the work of bus ministry, etc., where those being ministered to do not self-support. 

Again, just observation.  No records, numbers, statistics to back my observations up.  My faith doesn't need all that.

Your faith doesn't need all that?  ???  What does your casual observation have to do with faith?  Your first paragraph is your opinion based upon your observation.  So... your faith doesn't need data, just your observation? 

 

[patriotic]

To this day, I am aggravated at Curtis Hudson´s story of how he built his church. His first church met in a double-wide mobile home, and at his first meeting with the local Southern Baptist Convention, the leaders divided the city among the churches. Every church was required to stay out of every other church´s territory. When they were done, a dismayed Curtis Hudson asked where his territory was. The laughing spokesman gave him a tiny area that ended at a nearby oak tree. Hudson announced that he would go anywhere in the city where someone needed to be saved and walked out of the Convention and never looked back.

Along with the other students, I cheered and applauded. The problem? Hudson didn´t tell us that his church didn´t grow from soul-winning alone. Godly Southern Baptists who wanted to do something with their lives started attending his church. God proviides churches with spiritual gifts, and brand-new saints aren´t up to par yet.

I was soul-winning with Jim Craw (who actually built the world´s largest bus route) and he told me of how he had stolen over half the membership of a small church and persuaded them to attend First Baptist, where they could do something with their lives. Wally Beebe, the bus director, had approved his actions.

Over the decades, I have seen that whenever a small church grows into a medium-sized church, most of its members were already saved and had transferred in from other churches. The people might have been fleeing problems, might have wanted to do something with their lives, might have been attracted by preaching that wasn´t boring, might have wanted a better program for their children, etc., but their Godliness had originated elsewhere.

Check the list of America´s 100 largest churches and you'll notice that most of them are in the Bible belt. Then you'll know where most of their membership comes from.

Of course there are people attending churches where they actually got saved. But HAC should have told us that the initial growth of those churches, as well as their strogest members, came from other churches.

In many years of observation and participation in various ministries, I have noticed that when a church/pastor is faithful at proclaiming the Word of God and winning new "converts", God supplies the "older" Christians to help man the work and train the new.  These also help fund the work of bus ministry, etc., where those being ministered to do not self-support. 

Again, just observation.  No records, numbers, statistics to back my observations up.  My faith doesn't need all that.

Your faith doesn't need all that?  ???  What does your casual observation have to do with faith?  Your first paragraph is your opinion based upon your observation.  So... your faith doesn't need data, just your observation?

I see how God works (observation), and the faith I have had and have in HIM and HIS workings is increased.

People who put a negative spin to it don't decrease it though, so please.  Have another swig of your Binaca.  I think you need it.  You seem in a horrible mood. 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

To this day, I am aggravated at Curtis Hudson´s story of how he built his church. His first church met in a double-wide mobile home, and at his first meeting with the local Southern Baptist Convention, the leaders divided the city among the churches. Every church was required to stay out of every other church´s territory. When they were done, a dismayed Curtis Hudson asked where his territory was. The laughing spokesman gave him a tiny area that ended at a nearby oak tree. Hudson announced that he would go anywhere in the city where someone needed to be saved and walked out of the Convention and never looked back.

Along with the other students, I cheered and applauded. The problem? Hudson didn´t tell us that his church didn´t grow from soul-winning alone. Godly Southern Baptists who wanted to do something with their lives started attending his church. God proviides churches with spiritual gifts, and brand-new saints aren´t up to par yet.

I was soul-winning with Jim Craw (who actually built the world´s largest bus route) and he told me of how he had stolen over half the membership of a small church and persuaded them to attend First Baptist, where they could do something with their lives. Wally Beebe, the bus director, had approved his actions.

Over the decades, I have seen that whenever a small church grows into a medium-sized church, most of its members were already saved and had transferred in from other churches. The people might have been fleeing problems, might have wanted to do something with their lives, might have been attracted by preaching that wasn´t boring, might have wanted a better program for their children, etc., but their Godliness had originated elsewhere.

Check the list of America´s 100 largest churches and you'll notice that most of them are in the Bible belt. Then you'll know where most of their membership comes from.

Of course there are people attending churches where they actually got saved. But HAC should have told us that the initial growth of those churches, as well as their strogest members, came from other churches.

In many years of observation and participation in various ministries, I have noticed that when a church/pastor is faithful at proclaiming the Word of God and winning new "converts", God supplies the "older" Christians to help man the work and train the new.  These also help fund the work of bus ministry, etc., where those being ministered to do not self-support. 

Again, just observation.  No records, numbers, statistics to back my observations up.  My faith doesn't need all that.

Your faith doesn't need all that?  ???  What does your casual observation have to do with faith?  Your first paragraph is your opinion based upon your observation.  So... your faith doesn't need data, just your observation?

I see how God works (observation), and the faith I have had and have in HIM and HIS workings is increased.

People who put a negative spin to it don't decrease it though, so please.  Have another swig of your Binaca.  I think you need it.  You seem in a horrible mood.

Oh.  That makes more sense, I guess.  Apparently you were just having trouble with pronoun/antecedent agreement.  Your writing is normally much more clear.

There is a crowd within the IFB who refuses education and rather claims faith without knowledge is greater than adding knowledge to virtue  to faith.  That group bothers me.  Glad your not in the anti-knowledge group, but rather the trying of your faith has made your faith much more precious.

 

[Vince Massi]

Exact numbers are unavailable, but who was captain of the world´s largest bus route?

Jim Craw was a student at Hammond Baptist High School when he took a route in a middle class area and began running in the two hundreds. He was later expelled from HAC (and deserved it) and is currently pastoring a small church on a gigantic campus in California.

A HAC student named Daniel started a route in north Chicago and quickly grew into the high 100's. Jim Vineyard assigned more workers to his route, gave him more buses, and announced that he was captain of the world´s largest bus route. Daniel was an active leader in Vineyard´s Gangsters, a violent gang that operatied with the approval and protection of the administration. After decades of successfuly pastoring small churches, he was divorced and remarried and was selling insurance.

Dan Taylor was the #2 man on the world´s largest bus route. He brought in over 200 kids on a regular basis, and actually brought in more kids than the captain. After a long stint as an Atheist, he has quietly returned to some belief in God. He is a very kind-hearted man who cares for animals and people.

Cliff Falen was the #3 man on the world´s largest bus route, averaging in the high 100's. One of the kindest, friendliest people I've ever met, he took no part in the gang violence. Today he bitterly hates Jim Vineyard and HAC, but he has returned from his Atheism.

I have told my friends Taylor and Cliff that the God of Jim Vineyard is a fictional character. If I believed that God is pleased with your sins as long as you have a big bus route, I would turn Atheist too.

 

[4everfsu]

Exact numbers are unavailable, but who was captain of the world´s largest bus route?

Jim Craw was a student at Hammond baptist High School when he took a route in a middle class area and began running in the two hundreds. He was later expelled from HAC (and deserved it) and is currently pastoring a small church on a gigantic campus in California.

A HAC student named Daniel started a route in north Chicago and quickly grew into the high 100's. Jim Vineyard assigned more workers to his route, gave him more buses, and announced that he was captain of the world´s largest bus route. Daniel was an active leader in Vineyard´s Gangsters, a violent gang that operatied with the approval and protection of the administration. After decades of successfuly pastoring small churches, he was divorced and remarried and was selling insurance.

Dan Taylor was the #2 man on the world´s largest bus route. He brought in over 200 kids on a regular basis, and actually brought in more kids than the captain. After a long stint as an Atheist, he has quietly returned to some belief in God. He is a very kind-hearted man who cares for animals and people.

Cliff Falen was the #3 man on the world´s largest bus route, averaging in the high 100's. One of the kindest, friendliest people I've ever met, he took no part in the gang violence. Today he bitterly hates Jim Vineyard and HAC, but he has returned from his Atheism.

I have told my friends Taylor and Cliff that the God of Jim Vineyard is a fictional character. If I believed that God is pleased with your sins as long as you have a big bus route, I would turn Atheist too.

If Dan Taylor is the person on the old FFF I talked to I am glad he is approaching God with an open heart. The person I talked to was an atheist and big animal lover. I prayed for him at the time that God would open his eyes.