Bizarre Numbers

RAIDER said:
Binaca Chugger said:
My first teaching job, Bro. Hyles told me where we should go.  When I asked the pastor about pay, he simply told me that we would have our needs met and we did.  Our second teaching job, we were simply told, yes, you will be paid a livable wage.  After 6 mo there, we got no salary.  My third position, we were told where we would live and given sub-standard pay.  The fourth place we went, when I asked about payment, I was told that if we wanted to serve God there, we would just come and trust God to provide because we should serve God, not mammon.  I was finally given an amount after I committed to move.  I realized it was going to be hand to mouth, but off to serve the Lord we went.  When I complained that I needed more money, I was told to trust God more.  When I asked for more, I was told to get on welfare.  I was then told to increase the size of the church if I wanted more money, so I started working less on teaching and more on visitation.  After the 50th adult joined the church through my outreach, I was told to just keep relying on God if I needed more money.  All the while, the "pastor," of course, lived in gluttonous luxury.

Yes, I subjected myself to this mentality.  I finally figured out that serving God in full time ministry to the detriment of your own family is a fatally flawed pursuit.  Different mindset now!
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You have just described the post-graduate trail of a true Hacker!  Just kidding.  :)
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I've told you before - I was HACker born and HACker bred!  It's amazing - you use some Binaca before the meeting to ask for money just to make sure your breath is not offensive.  The next morning, you wake up and your all like "I agreed to what!?!"
 
I just heard Dr. Chapman on Moody radio. (the one who wrote the 5 love languages) He said that women will often come to his office for counseling and complain that their husbands were not spiritual leaders. He said that when he hears that they always mean he doesn't have devotions with the family, isn't involved enough in church, etc. He says that he always asks if they go out and work every day and support the family. He said that is a part of spiritual leadership. It is taking charge and providing for your family which is a spiritual endeavor.

I am afraid that too often when we talk about serving the Lord that it has got to be some kind of full time service. I had that mindset for years that if you weren't in full time work that you were a failure or a sluggard. One of my kids had a teacher at hac who said that anyone who has graduated from hac and is in secular work is an antichrist. By the way, he is no longer in full time church work.

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might!
 
Balaam, I had a HAC graduate who was an assistant pastor, when FBCH was the world´s  greatest-dying church, rebuke me for having a part-time paid ministry and a part-time secular job.
 
Vince Massi said:
Balaam, I had a HAC graduate who was an assistant pastor, when FBCH was the world´s  greatest-dying church, rebuke me for having a part-time paid ministry and a part-time secular job.
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My dad was often criticized for working part-time as a meat cutter to supplement the income of a pastor's salary.  He and mom had seven growing children to feed (five of which were boys with healthy appetites).  Still, all seven of us are in church and work in church ministries somehow. 

Some people just need to mind their own business.
 
BALAAM said:
I am afraid that too often when we talk about serving the Lord that it has got to be some kind of full time service. I had that mindset for years that if you weren't in full time work that you were a failure or a sluggard. One of my kids had a teacher at hac who said that anyone who has graduated from hac and is in secular work is an antichrist. By the way, he is no longer in full time church work.
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This mentality has ruined many an HAC graduate.  They believe there calling requires them to receive a FT check from a church.  They believe that being a Christian school janitor is a higher calling than being a "Bi-vocational" pastor.  In their eyes, you are only doing the will of God if you fully rely on the church for your income.

Nothing wrong with being paid by the church of course. 
1 Corinthians 9:14 "Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel."

However, Paul worked a "day job" many times because he refused to take money from the people he was called to serve.  He served them freely and didn't require his converts to support him.  Many HAC graduate would consider Paul a failure, a backslider, or a compromiser for not being in FT service.

I Thessalonians 2:9 "For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God."
 
Vince Massi said:
Balaam, I had a HAC graduate who was an assistant pastor, when FBCH was the world´s  greatest-dying church, rebuke me for having a part-time paid ministry and a part-time secular job.
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Then I think this idiotic asst pastor would have rebuked Paul. Consider yourself in good company then.
 
A few weeks back while watching FBC's live stream, JW announced that one of their chapels were going to form their own church, and would no longer receive any financial help from FBC.  JW then brought about 5 couples to the platform and had the new "pastor" of the chapel/church introduce them.

All five couples had a "pastor" title (i.e. music, finance, etc.).  I assume that they'll be receiving some form of a paycheck, but this new church was running maybe 80-90.  You figure the ten "pastors" and spouses and then add their children.... how many can be contributing financially?

This church is already going to be financially strangling a five couples.  I think that the church was in Porter County, maybe Valpo.
 
tobytyler said:
A few weeks back while watching FBC's live stream, JW announced that one of their chapels were going to form their own church, and would no longer receive any financial help from FBC.  JW then brought about 5 couples to the platform and had the new "pastor" of the chapel/church introduce them.

All five couples had a "pastor" title (i.e. music, finance, etc.).  I assume that they'll be receiving some form of a paycheck, but this new church was running maybe 80-90.  You figure the ten "pastors" and spouses and then add their children.... how many can be contributing financially?

This church is already going to be financially strangling a five couples.  I think that the church was in Porter County, maybe Valpo.
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The church is in Portage. When these offshoot churches started, one of the first things they did was to introduce the "staff". Each one had a senior pastor, administrative pastor, youth pastor, children't pastor, and sometimes a Spanish pastor also. Kind of takes the air out of when JH used to tell us that you don't need an assistant until you are consistently running well over a hundred people.

By the way, I would be kind of interested to know how many of these churches are still in existence. JS started them with a lot of fanfare and introduced the staff, told of where they were, and had a lot of grand reports about how well they were doing and how many were in attendance. And of course, they all served food at their services. Good thing to get a crowd but that has to be financially draining to have to feed 50 - 100 people every week.
 
I´m really surprised at the response to this thread. Here is an important point:

When Jack Hyles was yelling "Don't quit! Cut the word `quit´out of your dictionary! Nevvah turn back!" he was more knowledgeable than we realized. Most Bible college graduates have no ministry and do not even attend church several years after they graduate. As a group, Bible colleges have failed to inform their students of this, and HAC was one of those that failed. But the percentage of HAC grads who are serving God in some capacity, even as lay people, is far higher than what the average Bible college produces. The leadership failed us, however, by not telling us that most of us would not have full-time ministries after a few years, and that we needed to be prepared to serve God as lay people.

Within a few days, I have found far more former Christian school teachers than I have found in decades from churches and other Christian forums.

Now you see why the Southern Baptist Convention and the Assemblies of God Bible colleges MUST be accredited: most of their graduates will quit after a few years, but at least they´ll have courses that will transfer.

 
Vince Massi said:
I´m really surprised at the response to this thread. Here is an important point:

When Jack Hyles was yelling "Don't quit! Cut the word `quit´out of your dictionary! Nevvah turn back!" he was more knowledgeable than we realized. Most Bible college graduates have no ministry and do not even attend church several years after they graduate. As a group, Bible colleges have failed to inform their students of this, and HAC was one of those that failed. But the percentage of HAC grads who are serving God in some capacity, even as lay people, is far higher than what the average Bible college produces. The leadership failed us, however, by not telling us that most of us would not have full-time ministries after a few years, and that we needed to be prepared to serve God as lay people.

Within a few days, I have found far more former Christian school teachers than I have found in decades from churches and other Christian forums.

Now you see why the Southern Baptist Convention and the Assemblies of God Bible colleges MUST be accredited: most of their graduates will quit after a few years, but at least they´ll have courses that will transfer.
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This may be only partly true. I was informed over and over again in college of the dropout rate of students and of pastors quitting. The problem with hac and fbch, as I see it, is that  no matter how much you want to be faithful and serve God, the only avenue is full time ministry of some sort and nothing else.  There was an overwhelming pressure starting in junior high that these kids all "surrender" to full time service. (I am starting to hate that word)

I was a young man and very involved in my little dead church. I wanted so badly to see something happen and to be involved in a ministry that I read everything I could get my hands on and went to every conference etc. that I could. I went to Pastor's School and decided to come to hac, mostly because I wanted to be a part of the church with all the ministries. Not really to pastor, although I was not against it, but to do something. When I got there it kind of became the only thing and that you had to be called or had to surrender to some area of service. I was surrendered to any area but finally gave in to the peer pressure and said I was called to pastor. Things did not work out like I thought they would and God in his infinite wisdom did not let me pastor. I would have been a disaster.

The youth department is constantly talking about their "products". (another word I am starting to despise) Only their "products" are the 10% or so who are only going to hac and going to the mission field or something. So many of the other kids feel like second class citizens because no matter how dedicated they are, they know that the only road is the one chosen by the intelligencia from fbch.

By the way, if you ever want to feel like a second class loser, stay around at fbch after you graduated and see all of the alumni and good-old-hac boys when they ask what you are doing. Working, serving God, taking care of your family, and all that is okay but if they would tell you the truth they would say you are despicable.  They like a lot of the slackers around to help pay the bills though.
 
Binaca Chugger said:
My first teaching job, Bro. Hyles told me where we should go.  When I asked the pastor about pay, he simply told me that we would have our needs met and we did.  Our second teaching job, we were simply told, yes, you will be paid a livable wage.  After 6 mo there, we got no salary.  My third position, we were told where we would live and given sub-standard pay.  The fourth place we went, when I asked about payment, I was told that if we wanted to serve God there, we would just come and trust God to provide because we should serve God, not mammon.  I was finally given an amount after I committed to move.  I realized it was going to be hand to mouth, but off to serve the Lord we went.  When I complained that I needed more money, I was told to trust God more.  When I asked for more, I was told to get on welfare.  I was then told to increase the size of the church if I wanted more money, so I started working less on teaching and more on visitation.  After the 50th adult joined the church through my outreach, I was told to just keep relying on God if I needed more money.  All the while, the "pastor," of course, lived in gluttonous luxury.

Yes, I subjected myself to this mentality.  I finally figured out that serving God in full time ministry to the detriment of your own family is a fatally flawed pursuit.  Different mindset now!
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That's amazing that three churches would treat you and your family that way. It's just so hard to imagine! It's sinful!
 
Vince Massi said:
I´m really surprised at the response to this thread. Here is an important point:

When Jack Hyles was yelling "Don't quit! Cut the word `quit´out of your dictionary! Nevvah turn back!" he was more knowledgeable than we realized. Most Bible college graduates have no ministry and do not even attend church several years after they graduate. As a group, Bible colleges have failed to inform their students of this, and HAC was one of those that failed. But the percentage of HAC grads who are serving God in some capacity, even as lay people, is far higher than what the average Bible college produces. The leadership failed us, however, by not telling us that most of us would not have full-time ministries after a few years, and that we needed to be prepared to serve God as lay people.

Within a few days, I have found far more former Christian school teachers than I have found in decades from churches and other Christian forums.

Now you see why the Southern Baptist Convention and the Assemblies of God Bible colleges MUST be accredited: most of their graduates will quit after a few years, but at least they´ll have courses that will transfer.
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Huh?  I remember being told 1 in 5 won't graduate and 1 in 3 will quit after they do graduate.  That statement was followed by a challenge to just go home now and save yourself the demerits and the money.... and miss out on joining Gideon's band!  I remember watching all the graduates and drop outs sitting in the church, simply happy to settle on their lees and live out their days as a part of the great FBC.  I was determined to do more.
 
It would appear that they were forced to improve on their honesty. Binaca Chugger and Balaam, what years did you attend? And if only 1 in 3 quit after they graduated, I´m amazed at how well HAC is doing.

We had a guy who transferred in at the beginning. He was very friendly, very Godly, and a genuine spiritual leader--he even married one of the Lewis sisters. The year after he graduated, an enraged Max Helton blasted us from the chapel pulpit for not being Godly enough, because the guy was on welfare and had quit the ministry.
 
Vince Massi said:
We had a guy who transferred in at the beginning. He was very friendly, very Godly, and a genuine spiritual leader--he even married one of the Lewis sisters. The year after he graduated, an enraged Max Helton blasted us from the chapel pulpit for not being Godly enough, because the guy was on welfare and had quit the ministry.
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How many Lewis sisters are there?  David Nelms married one.  Chris Carter married one and I want to say Eugene Hayden married one (might be mistaken about that one).
 
I got the lecture from Bro. Grady, so it was quite animated.  They also told us this in chapel numerous times during the "Don't Quit" period of each semester.

The 1 in 3 number has to be pure conjecture, since there was no alumni association tracking graduates to determine their involvement in church.
 
It’s my understanding, the model used to start churches 100 yrs. ago worked very well.  I have read that small churches were started by men who worked a full or part time job and pastored on the side. As the churches grew, the core families would perform much of the work that had to be done around the church. At some point when the church had grown to the point they could partially support the pastor he would begin to take a salary.  Often assistants were added in the same way, working part time for the church, and working on the side for their income. 
No wonder churches are strapped for money when they run less than 400 people and have a dozen or more employees.
What is the correct ratio of staff to members???  Pastors to members???
 
sword said:
It’s my understanding, the model used to start churches 100 yrs. ago worked very well.  I have read that small churches were started by men who worked a full or part time job and pastored on the side. As the churches grew, the core families would perform much of the work that had to be done around the church. At some point when the church had grown to the point they could partially support the pastor he would begin to take a salary.  Often assistants were added in the same way, working part time for the church, and working on the side for their income. 
No wonder churches are strapped for money when they run less than 400 people and have a dozen or more employees.
What is the correct ratio of staff to members???  Pastors to members???
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This post says A LOT about my issues with the church. Step back and look at how Christ operated His church while He was on earth, moving it from place to place, daily living, no leadership tier apart from Christ Himself, etc. Instead of "working for the church" it should be the church "working for Christ and those in need".

I've said it before and I say it again: The church has become an organization rather than an organism that it was intended to be.
 
Can anyone name some Baptist churches that are seeing rapid growth?

Of the ones that are seeing growth what seems to be the cataylist.

Exciting new programs?
Dynamic new staff members?
New Church model or organization?
Renewed outreach & evangelism?
Revised church standards?
New church location?
Other?
 
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