Bizarre Numbers

Exciting new programs? What new programs did Jesus introduce when He started the church?

Dynamic new staff members? DId Jesus have an assistant pastor or secretary?

New Church model or organization? Is Jesus' model too antiquated for today's culture?

Renewed outreach & evangelism? Shouldn't the church be doing this corporately instead of recruiting people to do it invidually?

Revised church standards? What church standards did Jesus fail to leave His disciples?

New church location? Did Jesus congregate His church in the same location every week or own a building or campus?

Other? Maybe church growth isn't where it is at. Maybe personal growth of each church member is.
 
This thread has drifted a bit into an overall discussion of quitting (what is it/isn't it, why do they, what's wrong with IFB colleges, etc.) I don't think the IFB movement has any more quitters (in relation to ministry) than anybody else. The simple truth is that ministry, whether teaching in a Christian school, being an evangelist, missionary, assistant or senior pastor, is incredibly difficult. It wears on you like a suit of plate armor on a hot August day. A number of people simply prepare poorly. I don't mean academically; I mean emotionally/spiritually. You run a sprint and a marathon totally differently. If you aren't in it for the long term, if you haven't structured for the long term, if you get your eyes on the material things others have that you don't, if you get weary of the discouragement and criticism, if you get mishandled by a pastor boss, if your wife grows to resent the ministry, etc. etc. you will find plenty of gift-wrapped opportunities to quit.

Dr. Evans used to say that our service for the Lord could only be measured, not in years, but in decades. I totally agree with him.

In relation to the discussion on the merits of those who are no longer in full time service, but are still serving God in their local church - well, I praise God for them. A number of my dearest friends from my HAC days are in that position, and they are such a help to their church/pastor. All work is honorable work, assuming you do it ethically with diligence. Sure, there are a few wingnuts here and there who think a person has to get a paycheck from the church to be valuable to God, but they usually weed themselves out. The typical pastor I know has a great respect for his laypeople, and for how hard they work inside of and outside of the church.

If I had to guess, I would say of the 100 or so HAC students that I have stayed relatively close with since my days there in the early 90's, probably 25% of them are in full time service and 90% of them are still in church 20 years later, and probably 75% of those in church are still in an IFB church. I don't think the numbers, at least in my experience, are near as bleak as Vince's experience shows.
 
Smellin Coffee said:
Exciting new programs? What new programs did Jesus introduce when He started the church?

Dynamic new staff members? DId Jesus have an assistant pastor or secretary?

New Church model or organization? Is Jesus' model too antiquated for today's culture?

Renewed outreach & evangelism? Shouldn't the church be doing this corporately instead of recruiting people to do it invidually?

Revised church standards? What church standards did Jesus fail to leave His disciples?

New church location? Did Jesus congregate His church in the same location every week or own a building or campus?

Other? Maybe church growth isn't where it is at. Maybe personal growth of each church member is.
Click to expand...

Kind of tired right now, so I'll just say, "What he said."
 
sword said:
It’s my understanding, the model used to start churches 100 yrs. ago worked very well.  I have read that small churches were started by men who worked a full or part time job and pastored on the side. As the churches grew, the core families would perform much of the work that had to be done around the church. At some point when the church had grown to the point they could partially support the pastor he would begin to take a salary.  Often assistants were added in the same way, working part time for the church, and working on the side for their income. 
No wonder churches are strapped for money when they run less than 400 people and have a dozen or more employees.
What is the correct ratio of staff to members???  Pastors to members???
Click to expand...

Okay, now I don't know the answer to this and maybe someone else does. In the past several years fbch has all of these missions teams out and they always have letters about how some of the native pastors start and pastor churches. I am wondering; How many of these guys who are pastors in Africa and other third world countries full time? I always wondered if any of them even received a salary from their churches.
 
Tom Brennan said:
This thread has drifted a bit into an overall discussion of quitting (what is it/isn't it, why do they, what's wrong with IFB colleges, etc.) I don't think the IFB movement has any more quitters (in relation to ministry) than anybody else. The simple truth is that ministry, whether teaching in a Christian school, being an evangelist, missionary, assistant or senior pastor, is incredibly difficult. It wears on you like a suit of plate armor on a hot August day. A number of people simply prepare poorly. I don't mean academically; I mean emotionally/spiritually. You run a sprint and a marathon totally differently. If you aren't in it for the long term, if you haven't structured for the long term, if you get your eyes on the material things others have that you don't, if you get weary of the discouragement and criticism, if you get mishandled by a pastor boss, if your wife grows to resent the ministry, etc. etc. you will find plenty of gift-wrapped opportunities to quit.

Dr. Evans used to say that our service for the Lord could only be measured, not in years, but in decades. I totally agree with him.

In relation to the discussion on the merits of those who are no longer in full time service, but are still serving God in their local church - well, I praise God for them. A number of my dearest friends from my HAC days are in that position, and they are such a help to their church/pastor. All work is honorable work, assuming you do it ethically with diligence. Sure, there are a few wingnuts here and there who think a person has to get a paycheck from the church to be valuable to God, but they usually weed themselves out. The typical pastor I know has a great respect for his laypeople, and for how hard they work inside of and outside of the church.

If I had to guess, I would say of the 100 or so HAC students that I have stayed relatively close with since my days there in the early 90's, probably 25% of them are in full time service and 90% of them are still in church 20 years later, and probably 75% of those in church are still in an IFB church. I don't think the numbers, at least in my experience, are near as bleak as Vince's experience shows.
Click to expand...

Tom! You ought to know by now that this is the HACKER thread. If we could stay on subject we wouldn't be hackers. If we were totally honest then everything we post would be on the hacker thread about absolutely nothing at all. ;) ;)
 
sword said:
Can anyone name some Baptist churches that are seeing rapid growth?

Of the ones that are seeing growth what seems to be the cataylist.

Exciting new programs?
Dynamic new staff members?
New Church model or organization?
Renewed outreach & evangelism?
Revised church standards?
New church location?
Other?
Click to expand...

Holy Spirit?
 
Tom Brennan said:
This thread has drifted a bit into an overall discussion of quitting (what is it/isn't it, why do they, what's wrong with IFB colleges, etc.) I don't think the IFB movement has any more quitters (in relation to ministry) than anybody else.
Click to expand...

I totally have to agree with what Tom said,... Oooohhh shiny object!!!!!

Wait? Where was I?  ;D
 
Bravo said:
I totally have to agree with what Tom said,... Oooohhh shiny object!!!!!

Wait? Where was I?  ;D
Click to expand...

Have you seen my squirrel?
 
Holy Spirit?
[/quote]

Yes!  So many meetings looking to change the church schedule, add programs, new methods, go to conferences.  Where is the Holy Spirit power transforming lives and drawing men to Christ?
 
About Christian school teachers, think I told you before that the second year I taught school I was not told how much I'd be paid nor did I ask.  First month I received the awesome paycheck of $150 yes $150 for one month's work!  Well, I was young, recently married, stars in my eyes and didn't care much!  My husband was paid $200 yes $200 monthly working as the church's visitation man.  We earned $4000 our first year together (1991) and lived on love and were happy!  God provided!  Looking back I think we were rather crazy!  Yes, we were taken advantage of, but God took care of us!
 
RebeccasRants said:
About Christian school teachers, think I told you before that the second year I taught school I was not told how much I'd be paid nor did I ask.  First month I received the awesome paycheck of $150 yes $150 for one month's work!  Well, I was young, recently married, stars in my eyes and didn't care much!  My husband was paid $200 yes $200 monthly working as the church's visitation man.  We earned $4000 our first year together (1991) and lived on love and were happy!  God provided!  Looking back I think we were rather crazy!  Yes, we were taken advantage of, but God took care of us!
Click to expand...


Was it a new church where the pastor and other staff were also living on a shoestring or was it a situation where the pastor had a good paycheck, housing, car, bill and expenses paid and asked his staff to live below federal min. wage?

God will supply, I have seen it time after time but no one should be expected to live like that. Even a missionary should have proper support before they go to the field. God expects us to care for our families.
 
Remember that I atended HAC at the very beginning, when the list of heroes was different.

I often met my converts when bus visiting, but I had one occasion, when I  met a convert years later. He was glad to see me (I didn´t remember him) and was enrolled in a Bible college. Granted, I might have met converts from the following list who didn´t inform me, but here goes:

I had a HAC room mate who was saved under Jack Hyles' preaching. I have never met another convert of Jack Hyles.

I have never met a convert of John R. Rice.
I have never met a convert of Lee Roberson.
I have never met a convert of Jerry Falwell.
I have never met a convert of R. G. Lee.
I have never met a convert of Bob Jones Sr., Jr., or the III.
I have never met a convert of John Rawlings.
I have never met a convert of Rex Humbard.

In addition to myself, I have met two converts of Billy Graham. Do the math, Folks.
 
Tom Brennan said:
If I had to guess, I would say of the 100 or so HAC students that I have stayed relatively close with since my days there in the early 90's, probably 25% of them are in full time service and 90% of them are still in church 20 years later, and probably 75% of those in church are still in an IFB church. I don't think the numbers, at least in my experience, are near as bleak as Vince's experience shows.
Click to expand...

I went through FB and kind of did the same with folks that I went to college with... The numbers are pretty much the same, with the exception that those still attending IFB churches seems to be a little lower than 75%.
 
Just because You haven't meet a "famous" preacher's convert doesn't mean they didn't go soul winning, or lead someone to the Lord.
 
kaba said:
Just because You haven't meet a "famous" preacher's convert doesn't mean they didn't go soul winning, or lead someone to the Lord.
Click to expand...

Listen carefully to their stories.  Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.  When they go months without talking about someone they met outside of church who had trusted Christ or is visiting in church now, they don't go soul winning.  When all of their illustrations about visitation are from long ago, they don't go soul winning.  When their only stories of seeing people saved comes from events in the office or at the church, they don't go soul winning.

Get the idea?
 
Binaca Chugger said:
When their only stories of seeing people saved comes from events in the office or at the church, they don't go soul winning.
Click to expand...

Yikes...my soul was supposedly won in a pastor's office.... never would have know that location was contingent.

I should probably make that right posthaste, can you let me know an appropriate location where it is acceptable!
 
But does "soul winning" have to be cold door knocking? I think getting saved in the Pastor's office is leading someone to the Lord. Who makes the rules that you cant count that as soul winning?

I personally think the list of "famous" preachers that was given, walked the walk. Although I couldn't say about Rex Humbard he wasn't even IFB.

 
Vince Massi said:
Remember that I atended HAC at the very beginning, when the list of heroes was different.

I often met my converts when bus visiting, but I had one occasion, when I  met a convert years later. He was glad to see me (I didn´t remember him) and was enrolled in a Bible college. Granted, I might have met converts from the following list who didn´t inform me, but here goes:

I had a HAC room mate who was saved under Jack Hyles' preaching. I have never met another convert of Jack Hyles.

I have never met a convert of John R. Rice.
I have never met a convert of Lee Roberson.
I have never met a convert of Jerry Falwell.
I have never met a convert of R. G. Lee.
I have never met a convert of Bob Jones Sr., Jr., or the III.
I have never met a convert of John Rawlings.
I have never met a convert of Rex Humbard.

In addition to myself, I have met two converts of Billy Graham. Do the math, Folks.
Click to expand...

I've never met a convert of Billy Graham.
I've met a few converts of John Rice.
I've met and know personally many, many converts of Jerry Falwell.

Just goes to show that your experience is just your experience.
As is mine.....  :)
 
Vince Massi said:
Remember that I atended HAC at the very beginning, when the list of heroes was different.

I often met my converts when bus visiting, but I had one occasion, when I  met a convert years later. He was glad to see me (I didn´t remember him) and was enrolled in a Bible college. Granted, I might have met converts from the following list who didn´t inform me, but here goes:

I had a HAC room mate who was saved under Jack Hyles' preaching. I have never met another convert of Jack Hyles.

I have never met a convert of John R. Rice.
I have never met a convert of Lee Roberson.
I have never met a convert of Jerry Falwell.
I have never met a convert of R. G. Lee.
I have never met a convert of Bob Jones Sr., Jr., or the III.
I have never met a convert of John Rawlings.
I have never met a convert of Rex Humbard.

In addition to myself, I have met two converts of Billy Graham. Do the math, Folks.
Click to expand...

How can you do the math on something purely anecdotal? I mean, if you want anecdotes, well, I've pastored in Chicago for the past ten years, and in those ten years I've met at least two converts that Jack Hyles personally led to Christ...even though it is years after his death, and even though we are at least an hour away from Hammond. Anecdotes don't prove anything, really. They simply provide talking points.
 
qwerty said:
Binaca Chugger said:
When their only stories of seeing people saved comes from events in the office or at the church, they don't go soul winning.
Click to expand...

Yikes...my soul was supposedly won in a pastor's office.... never would have know that location was contingent.

I should probably make that right posthaste, can you let me know an appropriate location where it is acceptable!
Click to expand...

Obviously someone can get saved in a pastor's office. 

What I am tired of is hearing the "Famous," big name speakers wander around telling everyone what they ought to do, but they don't do it themselves.  These "conference specialists" are good at preaching on soul winning, but when you examine their own lives, the only time they personally witness is if someone begs of their time, rushes past the secretary and pleads "What must I do to be saved!?!"  Otherwise, they don't personally share the Gospel.  When some such instance does happen, they will brag about it for a few months as a lesson for all others to follow on how we ought to be able to share the Gospel.  Such a person is not a soul conscious Christian.  Rather, he is a fraud.
 
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