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christundivided
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Tarheel Baptist said:
Well said....
Views on tithing
- Thread starter freelance_christian
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Well said....
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For the record, I don't believe tithing is the NT standard.
I think a Christian with his stewardship house in order would probably give more than a tithe. Not because he has to.....but because he wants to and is able to.
Because he has been taught and practices Biblical Stewardship!
I think a Christian with his stewardship house in order would probably give more than a tithe. Not because he has to.....but because he wants to and is able to.
Because he has been taught and practices Biblical Stewardship!
aleshanee said:
Thanks, aleshanee, you're my biggest cheerleader...and I greatly appreciate you and your friendship. If the worst that happens to me today is a little red, well, then I'm doing OK! I've still got two more to catch up to you...I hope it takes me awhile to get there, though. ;D
In all fairness to christundivided, I wasn't making a clear statement of my thoughts. We were talking past each other. I understand his passion for the subject. He exhibited quite a bit of restraint by only giving me one red. But I'm glad we got to the bottom of it and have a clearer understanding of each other's position. Happy day!!
I personally do not think that a person can give out of a sincere heart of love for God and give too much. It would totally go against the character and nature of our God to let such a person go hungry or without their needs being met.lnf said:
"Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you." Luke 6:38
"I have been young, and now am old; Yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken, Nor his descendants begging bread." Psalm 37:25
aleshanee said:
Excellent post! I just heard a statistic today the around 400 people each day lose their lives just because of their christian faith in the world in which we live today. Being born and raised in the USA tends to give us a very narrow perspective of what actually happens around the world.
aleshanee said:
Well, you quoted my answer but you changed the question. The question was not "do the righteous suffer?" The question was "can a person give their tithe to the detriment of their family." The Word of God ensures us that the godly will indeed suffer, but the same Word of God promises that God takes care of His own. These examples you have given were not of the righteous suffering for giving God too much. They suffered simply because they were righteous.
No, ma'am, not in the slightest degree. I've had my share of troubles just like the next Christian, but none of my troubles were a result of doing too much or giving too much to God.
Now, as to the charge of taking a verse out of context, I take that rather seriously. Would you mind explaining to me how either of the verses I quoted were quoted out of context?
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christundivided
Guest
[/quote]Citadel of Truth said:
I see you ignored the story of Lazaras. Typical!
I bet you're one of those people that believe God wouldn't let you run a stop sign unless it was His will?
I have heard many messages out of Malachi 3 in the IFB but few, if any, expound on the bold portion below:
Malachi 3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
If one does a Bible study on the word "meat" they will learn it has nothing to do with the operational needs or maintenance of the temple. This was the raw material needed for specific sacrifices. Christ is our all sufficient sacrifice and to teach the OT tithe in the NT, if you draw the logic out to conclusion, is near blaspheme against the work and person of Christ.
The teaching of the commanded 10% with all the curses of Malachi attached is not only unscriptural but antiscriptural:
2 Corinthians 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Malachi 3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
If one does a Bible study on the word "meat" they will learn it has nothing to do with the operational needs or maintenance of the temple. This was the raw material needed for specific sacrifices. Christ is our all sufficient sacrifice and to teach the OT tithe in the NT, if you draw the logic out to conclusion, is near blaspheme against the work and person of Christ.
The teaching of the commanded 10% with all the curses of Malachi attached is not only unscriptural but antiscriptural:
2 Corinthians 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
T
Torrent v.3
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christundivided said:
Excellent statement.
T
Torrent v.3
Guest
lnf said:
Most baptist churches have the same standard covenant that people either agree to verbally or sign when they become members. Here is an exceprt from one, pretty typical.
We will contribute cheerfully and regularly to the support of the ministry, the expenses of the church, the relief of the poor, and the spread of the Gospel through all nations.
christundivided said:
I'm not sure what you are implying when you use the word "typical." If you mean that it is typical not to be redundant, then I am guilty. If you mean that it is typical not to address an irrelevant illustration, then I am guilty. You see, Lazarus was well covered when I stated, "These examples you have given were not of the righteous suffering for giving God too much. They suffered simply because they were righteous." I joined this forum to engage in civil debate, not to run from it. If you were implying that I had no answer for Lazarus so I chose to ignore it, then you are mistaken.
I'm afraid you would lose that bet. I've ran my share of stop signs, but none of them because it was God's will. All of them were a result of my lack of attention.
Why do you feel the need to belittle those with whom you disagree?
I do not disagree with your interpretation of this passage. In this same great message, Jesus also says, "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.aleshanee said:
25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?
26 "Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
27 "Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
28 "So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;
29 "and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 "Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31 "Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
32 "For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
34 "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
Matthew 6:24-34
Here, in the New Testament, Jesus Himself promises that if God's children are faithful in serving Him more than mammon [material possessions], then their needs will be met.
Will the righteous suffer? Indeed they will. But never for giving God too much.
Yes, ma'am, I would be happy to. Lazarus was never forsaken by His God. Lazarus was ushered to Abraham's bosom immediately after his death. His eternal reward far outweighs any earthly hardship he endured. God certainly did not forsake him them nor will He ever forsake him.
We are not told if Lazarus had any children. If he did, then they were indeed blessed (vs. 26) by the godliness of their father. What an honor it would be to have your father's testimony records in the eternal Word of God.
Even in the greatest of afflictions, the righteous are "merciful and lendeth." Although we do not understand how God works (Isa. 55:8-9), we can be sure that He has never forsaken the righteous and their seed will indeed be blessed even if, humanly speaking, they seem to be begging bread.
I believe the overall context of Psalm 37 is that God's children should never envy the prosperity of the world. We must place our confidence in God alone, for He is well capable of caring for His children. I believe that it may have been written for the captives in Babylon, but I am not dogmatic in this position.
The relevance to the specific point I addressed, Is it common practice that people contribute so much to the church (by giving a strict 10% on gross income) that they deplete their personal finances to the detriment of their families?, is that God will not allow a Christian to suffer financially because they gave their tithe or because they were too generous in their giving.
You and I do not have a disagreement on this matter. I think our earlier misunderstanding was purely a matter of semantics. You raise some good questions which I would be happy to offer my opinion unless your questions are only rhetorical.
aleshanee said:
I honestly believe there has to be clear leadership of the Holy Spirit before a person should give "everything they have" to God. That being said, we have to trust in the words of Jesus Himself - Luke 18:29 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
30 "who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life."
The portion that I put in bold print is a key, in my opinion. We shouldn't give to get in return, but Jesus promises that we will. Perhaps not in the way we would choose or in the way that seems most logical, but the reward will indeed come, else Jesus is a liar.
We can only look at it from a human perspective. Jesus said that they will be rewarded "in this present time." Perhaps the difficulty some are facing is a mismanagement of the blessings that God has given them. The passage did not say that God will make each of us "filthy rich," but rather that their sincere sacrifices would be compensated.
I certainly cannot argue with your logic here. It did seem to be the case to those who knew Lazarus. I like to think that Lazarus had such a peace and contentment that the world at that time could never understand. Jesus put it like this: John 4:31 In the meantime His disciples urged Him, saying, "Rabbi, eat."
32 But He said to them, "I have food to eat of which you do not know."
33 Therefore the disciples said to one another, "Has anyone brought Him anything to eat?"
34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.
Only a fool would attribute hard times to sin. Who of us have not experienced hard times? I'm not saying that a person who flippantly signs over his paycheck to the church will not suffer financially. I will say that if a person follows the leading of the Holy Spirit and gives accordingly, even it is to give all, then that person will not suffer for it, even if it appears to you and me that they are. Simply asking that person would be a very telling answer and quite convicting, I'm sure.
I submit to you that it is rarely, if ever, a result of unconfessed sin, but rather mishandled finances. To be sure, sin can block the blessings of God from our lives (Jer 5:25 Your iniquities have turned these things away, And your sins have withheld good from you), but one giving a tithe to the church is rarely the financial decision that "broke the bank." More than likely it was the Blockbuster videos, or the smart phone, or the cable or satellite TV, or the X-Box, or the PC games, etc.
I believe paying a bill for a struggling individual is necessary at times. If it is a common reoccurance, a better solution would be to help him/her manage their finances better. Again, more times than not, the difficulty is brought about by unwise decisions rather than giving to the Lord's work.
Wise people here 8) Great posts..hoping I don't spoil it
How is our hard earned cash is to be spent? Scripture prioritizes it for us
All Teaching/Preaching Elders are rightfully allowed to be monetarily compensated for basic needs according to that persons measure (need). It's not cool to deliberately be needy every single month as a way of life. point here is that Pastors/Elders have a back up. Skills, Education, a Trade. Fancy Cars, internet cellphones, modern homes, monkey suits, etc.. are extras. Frills. Not something the church is responsible for. [/quote]
Until certain Elders to learn a skill, it may be agreed the members float him for a time. If I did fleshly subscribe to the secular theology of one Pastor... elevated above Elders, I could easily lean towards he be paid the average wage for the area. But that would be doubly opposing scripture
Paul taught to rely upon charity as a consistent income to meet basic needs is not wise. See 2 Cor. below. He honed his tentmaking skills with Acquila (also a tentmaker), preaching and donating to the poor. He taught that the churches that reaped his spiritual seeds are to be those who help him with monetary financial help. As others articulated very well, the NT does not command tithing and the OT only had certain peoples tithing
2 Corinthians 11:8-9 I robbed other churches, taking wages (of them) that I might minister unto you; 9 and when I was present with you and was in want, I was not a burden on any man; for the brethren, when they came from Macedonia, supplied the measure of my want;
How is our hard earned cash is to be spent? Scripture prioritizes it for us
All Teaching/Preaching Elders are rightfully allowed to be monetarily compensated for basic needs according to that persons measure (need). It's not cool to deliberately be needy every single month as a way of life. point here is that Pastors/Elders have a back up. Skills, Education, a Trade. Fancy Cars, internet cellphones, modern homes, monkey suits, etc.. are extras. Frills. Not something the church is responsible for. [/quote]
Until certain Elders to learn a skill, it may be agreed the members float him for a time. If I did fleshly subscribe to the secular theology of one Pastor... elevated above Elders, I could easily lean towards he be paid the average wage for the area. But that would be doubly opposing scripture
Paul taught to rely upon charity as a consistent income to meet basic needs is not wise. See 2 Cor. below. He honed his tentmaking skills with Acquila (also a tentmaker), preaching and donating to the poor. He taught that the churches that reaped his spiritual seeds are to be those who help him with monetary financial help. As others articulated very well, the NT does not command tithing and the OT only had certain peoples tithing
2 Corinthians 11:8-9 I robbed other churches, taking wages (of them) that I might minister unto you; 9 and when I was present with you and was in want, I was not a burden on any man; for the brethren, when they came from Macedonia, supplied the measure of my want;
I will speak only for my church
1. Is it common practice that people contribute so much to the church (by giving a strict 10% on gross income) that they deplete their personal finances to the detriment of their families? This is not taught in our church, thank God. The church is it's members, I don't generally know how much they financially help each other out. Not my business really.
2. Do people think the average church leadership doesn't practice good stewardship in determining how "general fund" offerings are disbursed? We are an Elder run church so the church is not informed of how general funds are spent. If we cannot pay the rent, lights, it's time to downgrade. We would never consider asking for additional monies to pay for a structure. We can meet in homes or somewhere else if needed
3. Do people think that owning property/buildings, creating the the need for monies to pay for upkeep, maintenance, repair, utility bill payments, etc., is a waste of "general fund" offerings? Maybe. we have minimal expenses. Nowadays with the recession, you can even rent an SDA church instead of putting your church in debt.
4. How common is it that church members give nothing at all in support of the church, even as they enjoy the lights, air conditioning and flushing toilets each Sunday morning? We have none. I have no idea how much people donate, but I see most everyone helping in some capacity. Volunteering or just helping to clean up after church. Money is unimportant
1. Is it common practice that people contribute so much to the church (by giving a strict 10% on gross income) that they deplete their personal finances to the detriment of their families? This is not taught in our church, thank God. The church is it's members, I don't generally know how much they financially help each other out. Not my business really.
2. Do people think the average church leadership doesn't practice good stewardship in determining how "general fund" offerings are disbursed? We are an Elder run church so the church is not informed of how general funds are spent. If we cannot pay the rent, lights, it's time to downgrade. We would never consider asking for additional monies to pay for a structure. We can meet in homes or somewhere else if needed
3. Do people think that owning property/buildings, creating the the need for monies to pay for upkeep, maintenance, repair, utility bill payments, etc., is a waste of "general fund" offerings? Maybe. we have minimal expenses. Nowadays with the recession, you can even rent an SDA church instead of putting your church in debt.
4. How common is it that church members give nothing at all in support of the church, even as they enjoy the lights, air conditioning and flushing toilets each Sunday morning? We have none. I have no idea how much people donate, but I see most everyone helping in some capacity. Volunteering or just helping to clean up after church. Money is unimportant