Views on tithing

[Just me]

The CEO of the IFBx establishment I attended for way to long always said before taking every up offering, "We tithe to prove we're honest. We give offerings to prove our love."   

 

[christundivided]

Hence, should a church staff member tithe? 

Absolutely, a church staff member should tithe.  Even if one considers only the necessities, such as lights, water, phones, etc., each member should participate in the cost of keeping the doors open.

As for my use of the word "tithe", I'm not talking about a specific percentage of giving.  To me, it's a handy word to describe "undesignated" offerings.  The amount of giving is between the giver and God.

Tell you what. Let all those that believe in tithing keep tithing.

Keep tithing instead of paying for your children's education. Keep tithing and running up your credit card bills that you will never pay off. Keep tithing and forget about contributing to a retirement account. After all, you can live off the government. Keep tithing and believing THATS what makes it so you have ANY MONEY AT ALL. Keep tithing and watch your church store up more money than you make in an entire year..... just to let it sit until God divinely influences your pastor/deacon board to add reserved parking spaces for them with everyone's name on it at the church. Or until God breathes and tells them all the church pews need replacing or the light fixtures have been around for 10 years and they need a refresh.....

Just keep on tithing.

Goodness!  What a popular, yet contentious, subject this is.  It seems like there is a lot of negative connotation attached to the word "tithe".

Apparently, I made a huge faux pas by assuming that my second paragraph would explain my particular use of the word "tithe".  Honestly, I meant it in the sense of giving to the "general fund"...you know, the one that pays the light bill, the water bill, etc., not as a percentage of income (which I do know is the historical, biblical definition).  Henceforth, I will not use the word "tithe" unless I mean 10%.   

After reading the many posts since mine, I have a few questions...

1.  Is it common practice that people contribute so much to the church (by giving a strict 10% on gross income) that they deplete their personal finances to the detriment of their families?

2.  Do people think the average church leadership doesn't practice good stewardship in determining how "general fund" offerings are disbursed?

3.  Do people think that owning property/buildings, creating the the need for monies to pay for upkeep, maintenance, repair, utility bill payments, etc.,  is a waste of "general fund" offerings?

4. How common is it that church members give nothing at all in support of the church, even as they enjoy the lights, air conditioning and flushing toilets each Sunday morning? 

1. Yes. Happens all the time. Just because you've not personally experienced this, doesn't mean that it "don't happen".

2. Yes. The average church leadership doesn't properly handle what monies are given to the "general fund". Family members of church leadership tend to get the first shot at "jobs" around the church. Regardless if there is someone in the church that doesn't have a "job" or not. These "family members" sometimes do poor jobs. When confronted, they tend to say "you should be glad I'm even doing this at all. I don't have to". The general fund in the average church tends to accumulate and accumulate until it grows large enough to fund a "refresh" of church fixtures. New carpet when none is needed. New lights when none are broke. New pews because.... the church "designer". (Usually the pastor's wife) feels the old ones are too hard or could use a little "sprucing" up. Oh yeah... we can donate the old ones somewhere and be doing "God's work". The parking lot needs to be "black topped" even though gravel has worked for 20 years. The fellowship is just too old. Its large enough but hey... some people complain about the paneling. We can't have that at all. God wouldn't like it. The tithe "monies" are the perfect source of funding.

Don't get me wrong. Do all this. Have at it. Yet, don't claim the "tithe" ... God's money.....is the source for such funding.

3. It doesn't take much money for the things on your list. In fact, by percentage, I'd say its less than 25 percent of the average churches "take" in tithes.

4. Its rather common. Especially if you're considered to be one of the more "wealthy" members of the church. Whether you are or not.

 

[lnf]

christundivided, thank you for answering my questions.  I'm rather sheltered, in that I have only been a member of one church...and for not quite 10 years, at that. 

Before joining this forum, I never even imagined that many of the pervasive problems talked of here even existed in "the church".  I'm glad that my church seems to have avoided many of them. 

 

[christundivided]

christundivided, thank you for answering my questions.  I'm rather sheltered, in that I have only been a member of one church...and for not quite 10 years, at that. 

Before joining this forum, I never even imagined that many of the pervasive problems talked of here even existed in "the church".  I'm glad that my church seems to have avoided many of them.

I'm glad your happy. Enjoy your church. Everyone should be able to do this. Not all churches are the same and some flourish regardless of teachings. Yet, I prefer to be accurate in how to teach "giving". It puts things in the proper perspective. I believe this is essential to growing in Christ. Its bothers me when people talk of "God's money" and then spend it as-if its their money. This just doesn't happen with church members refusing to give. It also happens AFTER the money is given. To say anything otherwise is to be total naive.

 

[ALAYMAN]

1.  Is it common practice that people contribute so much to the church (by giving a strict 10% on gross income) that they deplete their personal finances to the detriment of their families?

2.  Do people think the average church leadership doesn't practice good stewardship in determining how "general fund" offerings are disbursed?

3.  Do people think that owning property/buildings, creating the the need for monies to pay for upkeep, maintenance, repair, utility bill payments, etc.,  is a waste of "general fund" offerings?

4. How common is it that church members give nothing at all in support of the church, even as they enjoy the lights, air conditioning and flushing toilets each Sunday morning? 

I've been the treasurer of my church for years, and I wouldn't demand that my anecdotal experience is the norm for churches, I'd be willing to bet that my observations are fairly indicative of patterns that represent usual church giving by the average congregant.

1) I've never seen a person be so generous that they could not meet their own financial obligations.  I have seen one instance where a tithe was cut back due to personal financial stress.  Most people who don't tithe also don't indicate in any manner how they give (ie, they give unmarked envelopes in the offering plate, usually in very small amounts).

2) We've never had any indication of distrust that was voiced, but it is human nature to want to manage (or micromanage) matters where money is donated.  When 50 different people give to a cause, there's a reasonable chance that there will be 50 different opinions about how it should be managed.

3) Never had any type of negative feedback from our congregants that would indicate that we are misappropriating funds by paying the light bills and utilities, but, we are a small church and there is not an abundance of discretionary income.  We don't have multiple accounts that are building up funds.  Our budget is probably like many small churches, where we'd like to do more benevolent community-minded ministerial activities, but people often take care of their own luxuries before considering the needs that could be met by their financial gifts to the ministry.

4) My opinion, probably about 20-30 % give next to nothing.  It is a statistical fact that often it is a few who subsidize the needs of the many in congregations.

 

[lnf]

Thank you, alayman, for sharing your experience.  It shows a different perspective than many of the postings. 

I'm truly saddened by the sheer number of people who have been hurt by their church leadership's attitude toward the offering plate.  It oughtn't be so.  God loveth a cheerful giver.  I doubt He wants anyone to feel browbeaten, coerced, or "guilted" into giving more than they can give cheerfully. 

And having said that, I also believe that a church member should give a little something in support of the church.  If they can't do a little something cheerfully, they're probably in the wrong church.   

 

[christundivided]

Thank you, alayman, for sharing your experience.  It shows a different perspective than many of the postings. 

I'm truly saddened by the sheer number of people who have been hurt by their church leadership's attitude toward the offering plate.  It oughtn't be so.  God loveth a cheerful giver.  I doubt He wants anyone to feel browbeaten, coerced, or "guilted" into giving more than they can give cheerfully. 

And having said that, I also believe that a church member should give a little something in support of the church.  If they can't do a little something cheerfully, they're probably in the wrong church. 

I'd say there is also another "bad attitude" on display here. Why is it.... you have no problem saying "move on" to a different church? Why is it most of you have no problem saying "move on" to another church. Is it really so simple?

I can assure you, no apostle would have ever said, "maybe this is not the right church for you". "Go on down the street and find one you really like....." If you don't believe in tithing.... then "move on". This might not be the "church for you".

Why so callus? If you've got a Pastor that throws such things around so easily.... then you don't have a pastor worth having.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I'd say there is also another "bad attitude" on display here. Why is it.... you have no problem saying "move on" to a different church? Why is it most of you have no problem saying "move on" to another church. Is it really so simple?

I can assure you, no apostle would have ever said, "maybe this is not the right church for you". "Go on down the street and find one you really like....." If you don't believe in tithing.... then "move on". This might not be the "church for you".

Why so callus? If you've got a Pastor that throws such things around so easily.... then you don't have a pastor worth having.

Not trying to speak for Inf but my guess is that she was saying "move on" in the sense that a person should go where their belief system most closely approximates the philosophy of ministry that they subscribe to. 

In my case,  I would say that I don't want anybody to hit the road merely because they disagree with leadership regarding non-essential doctrine, but, if they disagree to the extent of causing division and dissension, they should expect to be confronted for causing schism.

 

[Torrent v.3]

Wow. Just freakin Wow.

 

[lnf]

Thank you, alayman, for sharing your experience.  It shows a different perspective than many of the postings. 

I'm truly saddened by the sheer number of people who have been hurt by their church leadership's attitude toward the offering plate.  It oughtn't be so.  God loveth a cheerful giver.  I doubt He wants anyone to feel browbeaten, coerced, or "guilted" into giving more than they can give cheerfully. 

And having said that, I also believe that a church member should give a little something in support of the church.  If they can't do a little something cheerfully, they're probably in the wrong church. 

I'd say there is also another "bad attitude" on display here. Why is it.... you have no problem saying "move on" to a different church? Why is it most of you have no problem saying "move on" to another church. Is it really so simple?

I can assure you, no apostle would have ever said, "maybe this is not the right church for you". "Go on down the street and find one you really like....." If you don't believe in tithing.... then "move on". This might not be the "church for you".

Why so callus? If you've got a Pastor that throws such things around so easily.... then you don't have a pastor worth having.

Ooh, goodness!  I got my first red! 

christundivided, I don't believe you understand the spirit of my post.  First of all, nothing in my post concerns "tithing".  I already learned my lesson not to throw that word around lightly.  ;D  "A little something"  is not a tithe.

I did not say that a person who does not believe in tithing should move on.  At least in my particular church, all are welcome, whether they be tithers or not.

What I did say what that I believe if a church member cannot give "a little something" cheerfully, then they're probably in the wrong church.  Much of the 7 pages of this thread mention a lack of trust in the church leadership regarding finances.  Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly...but if I didn't trust my church leadership with my "little something", why ever in the world would I trust them enough to listen to a sermon?  As for me, if I didn't trust my church leadership with my little something, I would run, not walk to another church.  As for me, yes, it is that simple. 

Just to be clear, I don't speak for my Pastor.  Actually, he preaches very little on giving.  On the rare occasion that he might mention giving of any kind, it's always quite cheerful.  I have never once heard or seen him pressure anyone to give.  8)

No, I don't believe I have a bad attitude nor am I callous.  But I do believe it is important to be able to have trust in my church's leadership.         

 

[christundivided]

Thank you, alayman, for sharing your experience.  It shows a different perspective than many of the postings. 

I'm truly saddened by the sheer number of people who have been hurt by their church leadership's attitude toward the offering plate.  It oughtn't be so.  God loveth a cheerful giver.  I doubt He wants anyone to feel browbeaten, coerced, or "guilted" into giving more than they can give cheerfully. 

And having said that, I also believe that a church member should give a little something in support of the church.  If they can't do a little something cheerfully, they're probably in the wrong church. 

I'd say there is also another "bad attitude" on display here. Why is it.... you have no problem saying "move on" to a different church? Why is it most of you have no problem saying "move on" to another church. Is it really so simple?

I can assure you, no apostle would have ever said, "maybe this is not the right church for you". "Go on down the street and find one you really like....." If you don't believe in tithing.... then "move on". This might not be the "church for you".

Why so callus? If you've got a Pastor that throws such things around so easily.... then you don't have a pastor worth having.

Ooh, goodness!  I got my first red! 

christundivided, I don't believe you understand the spirit of my post.  First of all, nothing in my post concerns "tithing".  I already learned my lesson not to throw that word around lightly.  ;D  "A little something"  is not a tithe.

I did not say that a person who does not believe in tithing should move on.  At least in my particular church, all are welcome, whether they be tithers or not.

What I did say what that I believe if a church member cannot give "a little something" cheerfully, then they're probably in the wrong church.  Much of the 7 pages of this thread mention a lack of trust in the church leadership regarding finances.  Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly...but if I didn't trust my church leadership with my "little something", why ever in the world would I trust them enough to listen to a sermon?  As for me, if I didn't trust my church leadership with my little something, I would run, not walk to another church.  As for me, yes, it is that simple. 

Just to be clear, I don't speak for my Pastor.  Actually, he preaches very little on giving.  On the rare occasion that he might mention giving of any kind, it's always quite cheerful.  I have never once heard or seen him pressure anyone to give.  8)

No, I don't believe I have a bad attitude nor am I callous.  But I do believe it is important to be able to have trust in my church's leadership.       

I appreciate the response. While you haven't said "tithe". You haven't acknowledge one reason why someone shouldn't give. Not one reason. Even though you've been give several. You still have the attitude of "move on" if you don't "explicitly trust" the leadership to spend "just a little" properly. Sad.

I tell you what. If you can get those in your church to be truthful, how about asking some of them how much they owe on credit cards. Do you mind? Then find out how much they give to the church. You might just change your mind.

I've known literally dozens of church members that owed tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt. Debt some DIED owing. Debt it took all the estate to pay off. These same peoples wouldn't dare not tithe on their gross income. NEVER.

Pardon me... but if you've got someone in your church like that... and you still want at least a "little something" from them.... then you're the one with the problem. If they decide to pay off their bills instead of giving their "percentage" of the "light bill" each month, then by all means. Share your feelings about "moving on".

 

[ALAYMAN]

I appreciate the response. While you haven't said "tithe". You haven't acknowledge one reason why someone shouldn't give. Not one reason. Even though you've been give several. You still have the attitude of "move on" if you don't "explicitly trust" the leadership to spend "just a little" properly. Sad.

I tell you what. If you can get those in your church to be truthful, how about asking some of them how much they owe on credit cards. Do you mind? Then find out how much they give to the church. You might just change your mind.

I've known literally dozens of church members that owed tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt. Debt some DIED owing. Debt it took all the estate to pay off. These same peoples wouldn't dare not tithe on their gross income. NEVER.

Pardon me... but if you've got someone in your church like that... and you still want at least a "little something" from them.... then you're the one with the problem. If they decide to pay off their bills instead of giving their "percentage" of the "light bill" each month, then by all means. Share your feelings about "moving on".

Giving is a form of worship.  It only stands to reason that a person would want to worship God, even in their giving.

 

[christundivided]

I appreciate the response. While you haven't said "tithe". You haven't acknowledge one reason why someone shouldn't give. Not one reason. Even though you've been give several. You still have the attitude of "move on" if you don't "explicitly trust" the leadership to spend "just a little" properly. Sad.

I tell you what. If you can get those in your church to be truthful, how about asking some of them how much they owe on credit cards. Do you mind? Then find out how much they give to the church. You might just change your mind.

I've known literally dozens of church members that owed tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt. Debt some DIED owing. Debt it took all the estate to pay off. These same peoples wouldn't dare not tithe on their gross income. NEVER.

Pardon me... but if you've got someone in your church like that... and you still want at least a "little something" from them.... then you're the one with the problem. If they decide to pay off their bills instead of giving their "percentage" of the "light bill" each month, then by all means. Share your feelings about "moving on".

Giving is a form of worship.  It only stands to reason that a person would want to worship God, even in their giving.

Giving is means tested. If you don't have the means, then don't give.

Worship isn't means tested. I can still raise my hands and Thank God. I can still lift my voice and praise God. I can still lift my heart to God. Its doesn't cost a thing.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Giving is means tested. If you don't have the means, then don't give.

What if the reason you have the debt (you mentioned in a previous post) is due to materialism and living beyond your means?

 

[christundivided]

Giving is means tested. If you don't have the means, then don't give.

What if the reason you have the debt (you mentioned in a previous post) is due to materialism and living beyond your means?

Yes, That is a problem. A real problem. That should be fixed as well. You know, "this you should have done and not left the other undone.".

 

[ALAYMAN]

Yes, That is a problem. A real problem. That should be fixed as well. You know, "this you should have done and not left the other undone.".

Agreed.


In my own experience, very few church people are living in such destitute situations that they need every dime in order to pay their bills in order to meet their needs for surviving.  And I'd imagine that the vast majority who might fit that bill are only that way for short periods of time.  If they are so pressed for money for extremely long periods of time I'd suggest they get help from the church on how to dig themselves out of the hole they are in, so that they might experience the joy of not only living debt free, but also of cheerful giving to the Lord. 

And finally, Scripture shows us in more than one instance that the poor can also give unto the Lord as a means of worship, even liberally, in spite of their pitiable condition.

 

[lnf]

I appreciate the response. While you haven't said "tithe". You haven't acknowledge one reason why someone shouldn't give. Not one reason. Even though you've been give several. You still have the attitude of "move on" if you don't "explicitly trust" the leadership to spend "just a little" properly. Sad.

I tell you what. If you can get those in your church to be truthful, how about asking some of them how much they owe on credit cards. Do you mind? Then find out how much they give to the church. You might just change your mind.

I've known literally dozens of church members that owed tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt. Debt some DIED owing. Debt it took all the estate to pay off. These same peoples wouldn't dare not tithe on their gross income. NEVER.

Pardon me... but if you've got someone in your church like that... and you still want at least a "little something" from them.... then you're the one with the problem. If they decide to pay off their bills instead of giving their "percentage" of the "light bill" each month, then by all means. Share your feelings about "moving on".

christundivided, I really would like to extend an olive branch to you.  We still are not on exactly the same page, but I think we are moving closer.  Let me specifically address this post.  Perhaps it will change your poor opinion of my opinion. 

I do understand that there are economic situations where one cannot give, even if one has the desire to do so.  The loss of a job, medical issues, etc. that result in debt, sometimes crushing debt, are very real and very prevalent in our country today.

It was never my intention to belittle or place guilt upon people who are dealing with these kinds of issues.  Frankly, my church helps people who are in this position.  And I do understand that there are probably plenty more church members that my church doesn't help, because they haven't let the leadership know they are in financial straits.

Not so very long ago, I might have been counted among this group of people who don't speak up.  You see, after my husband died, our son got into some serious legal trouble.  I placed him in a home for troubled youth.  It was quite expensive.  My Pastor helped me with all the details.  He was there when financial issues were discussed.  He knew the price I would have to pay to get my son the help he needed.  He told me that he was sure the church would help me to pay for it...that they would be honored to partner with me to help my son.  Well, I really didn't want to take from the church, but I appreciated what he said.  So I told him that I would let him know if I couldn't work it out.  Well, by the grace of God, I was able to work it out.  Would I have told him if I couldn't?  To be honest, probably not.

No, I don't expect people who cannot afford to give to do anything to worsen their already tenuous financial position.  If someone came to me to discuss their financial situation, I would advise them to cut out all discretionary spending.

I apologize that I didn't make my position crystal clear.  My previous comments were from a position of trust and the lack thereof, not from a position of inability.       

 

[christundivided]

Yes, That is a problem. A real problem. That should be fixed as well. You know, "this you should have done and not left the other undone.".

Agreed.


In my own experience, very few church people are living in such destitute situations that they need every dime in order to pay their bills in order to meet their needs for surviving.  And I'd imagine that the vast majority who might fit that bill are only that way for short periods of time.  If they are so pressed for money for extremely long periods of time I'd suggest they get help from the church on how to dig themselves out of the hole they are in, so that they might experience the joy of not only living debt free, but also of cheerful giving to the Lord. 

And finally, Scripture shows us in more than one instance that the poor can also give unto the Lord as a means of worship, even liberally, in spite of their pitiable condition.

I agree. Yes, the poor do give and some have given "all their living". Yet, this is a rather unique time in which a person can run up massive amounts of debt.... all for a "low monthly" payment. The "widow" probably didn't have 360 payments of $500 a month left to pay.....

Just a thought. At a time when some need help, they shouldn't be required to help.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I think the back and forth about tithing, giving, debt, indebtedness can and should be resolved in a local church with a proper....Biblical view of Stewardship.
Biblical Stewardship should include helping/ teaching people how and why they should avoid indebtedness....why they should save money and prepare for the future as well as honoring The Lord and His ministry with their time, talent as well as their treasure.

Too many times, Pastors and churches have had wrong...selfish...un-Biblical philosophies of stewardship.....give to the church and all will be well. That isn't true and obviously not Biblical. However, a proper view of stewardship does include giving to the work of The Lord.....in my case, the local church.

 

[christundivided]

I appreciate the response. While you haven't said "tithe". You haven't acknowledge one reason why someone shouldn't give. Not one reason. Even though you've been give several. You still have the attitude of "move on" if you don't "explicitly trust" the leadership to spend "just a little" properly. Sad.

I tell you what. If you can get those in your church to be truthful, how about asking some of them how much they owe on credit cards. Do you mind? Then find out how much they give to the church. You might just change your mind.

I've known literally dozens of church members that owed tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt. Debt some DIED owing. Debt it took all the estate to pay off. These same peoples wouldn't dare not tithe on their gross income. NEVER.

Pardon me... but if you've got someone in your church like that... and you still want at least a "little something" from them.... then you're the one with the problem. If they decide to pay off their bills instead of giving their "percentage" of the "light bill" each month, then by all means. Share your feelings about "moving on".

christundivided, I really would like to extend an olive branch to you.  We still are not on exactly the same page, but I think we are moving closer.  Let me specifically address this post.  Perhaps it will change your poor opinion of my opinion. 

I do understand that there are economic situations where one cannot give, even if one has the desire to do so.  The loss of a job, medical issues, etc. that result in debt, sometimes crushing debt, are very real and very prevalent in our country today.

It was never my intention to belittle or place guilt upon people who are dealing with these kinds of issues.  Frankly, my church helps people who are in this position.  And I do understand that there are probably plenty more church members that my church doesn't help, because they haven't let the leadership know they are in financial straits.

Not so very long ago, I might have been counted among this group of people who don't speak up.  You see, after my husband died, our son got into some serious legal trouble.  I placed him in a home for troubled youth.  It was quite expensive.  My Pastor helped me with all the details.  He was there when financial issues were discussed.  He knew the price I would have to pay to get my son the help he needed.  He told me that he was sure the church would help me to pay for it...that they would be honored to partner with me to help my son.  Well, I really didn't want to take from the church, but I appreciated what he said.  So I told him that I would let him know if I couldn't work it out.  Well, by the grace of God, I was able to work it out.  Would I have told him if I couldn't?  To be honest, probably not.

No, I don't expect people who cannot afford to give to do anything to worsen their already tenuous financial position.  If someone came to me to discuss their financial situation, I would advise them to cut out all discretionary spending.

I apologize that I didn't make my position crystal clear.  My previous comments were from a position of trust and the lack thereof, not from a position of inability.     

No problem. Thanks for the explanation. I've been known to be argumentative at times. Please accept my apology.

I am glad your pastor offered to help you. Too often, "widows in deed" are overlooked in the assembly. May God bless you always.