Stuff Fundies Like is right on this one (and I hate to admit it)

[OZZY]

Ozzy,
Prov 20:1 can be read as a warning against over consumption. 
Again, I'm not for Christians drinking alcohol.  I just think its dishonest to compare Christians who believe alcohol is ok in moderation to homosexual advocates twisting scripture.  One is a lot clearer than the other.
Also, the point of the op was not that alcohol was ok for Christians (although that's what the debate turned into here) the point was that the preacher quite obviously and blatantly mishandled scripture and a bunch of heathen scorners pointed it out.  I meant it as a warning to be careful with the Word.  Not as a rubber stamp for social drinking.
I believe the Bible is overwhelmingly negative about alcohol and that in 2013, there is not one good reason for a child of God to drink.  But I also accept that there are people throughout history who have loved and defended God'S Word as much as I who came to different conclusions. 
I have said negative things about alcohol many times from the pulpit, I have never once said anything in preaching to give people the opinion that drinking is ok, but I've also been careful to not say things the Bible does not say.

it can be read anyway one wants to read it ,,, I guess .But I fail to see the words over consumption  or the implication that what it means. Kinda like the 2lips saying All doesnt mean all!

 

[pastorryanhayden]

Ozzy,
Prov 20:1 can be read as a warning against over consumption. 
Again, I'm not for Christians drinking alcohol.  I just think its dishonest to compare Christians who believe alcohol is ok in moderation to homosexual advocates twisting scripture.  One is a lot clearer than the other.
Also, the point of the op was not that alcohol was ok for Christians (although that's what the debate turned into here) the point was that the preacher quite obviously and blatantly mishandled scripture and a bunch of heathen scorners pointed it out.  I meant it as a warning to be careful with the Word.  Not as a rubber stamp for social drinking.
I believe the Bible is overwhelmingly negative about alcohol and that in 2013, there is not one good reason for a child of God to drink.  But I also accept that there are people throughout history who have loved and defended God'S Word as much as I who came to different conclusions. 
I have said negative things about alcohol many times from the pulpit, I have never once said anything in preaching to give people the opinion that drinking is ok, but I've also been careful to not say things the Bible does not say.

it can be read anyway one wants to read it ,,, I guess .But I fail to see the words over consumption  or the implication that what it means. Kinda like the 2lips saying All doesnt mean all!

There are probably 20 warnings against the dangers of alcohol, numerous references to drunkards not being a part of the body of Christ, commands not to keep company with drunkards and stories where alcohol was ruinous.  I have no problem warning people about alcohol, I have no problem telling people it's best not to touch it and I don't think you can be a faithful bible preacher and never preach against alcohol.  I have a problem with people who base a sermon argument about Christ's deity on a verse taken out of context.  I have a problem with people adding to the Word of God.  I have a problem with people so self-righteous they cannot admit that other people have come to a different opinion.
BTW I hate alcohol.  My father is not a Christian and had a party every weekend where I got the pleasure of watching grown men imbibe themselves then act like toddlers.  I've also seen Christians make excuses do their drunkenness and become addicted to alcohol.
Again, my original post was not about the alcohol, but the way the scriptures were handled.  SFL has been vicious to me.  When they point out abuse of scripture like this, it weakens the credibility of all fundamentalist and those who think Christians should totally abstain from alcohol. 
Being stronger than the Bible might be a short term gain in that it makes your sermon seem more forceful, but its a long term loss because it through a into question a preachers credibility.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=pastorryanhayden]There are probably 20 warnings against the dangers of alcohol abuse...[/quote]

Fixed. Now couple that with the 100+ instances where wine is considered a symbol of joy and we might be onto something...

[quote author=pastorryanhayden]...numerous references to drunkards not being a part of the body of Christ, commands not to keep company with drunkards...[/quote]

This one is always a favorite of mine: The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’

[quote author=pastorryanhayden]and stories where alcohol abuse was ruinous.[/quote]

Fixed that one for you as well. 

[quote author=pastorryanhayden]I have no problem warning people about alcohol, I have no problem telling people it's best not to touch it and I don't think you can be a faithful bible preacher and never preach against alcohol.[/quote]

You don't think you can be a faithful preacher and not preach some form of gnosticism, calling that which God has made evil and flat telling people to avoid what He explicitly calls a blessing in certain circumstances?

[quote author=pastorryanhayden]I have a problem with people who base a sermon argument about Christ's deity on a verse taken out of context.  I have a problem with people adding to the Word of God.  I have a problem with people so self-righteous they cannot admit that other people have come to a different opinion.

BTW I hate alcohol.  My father is not a Christian and had a party every weekend where I got the pleasure of watching grown men imbibe themselves then act like toddlers.  I've also seen Christians make excuses do their drunkenness and become addicted to alcohol.

Again, my original post was not about the alcohol, but the way the scriptures were handled.  SFL has been vicious to me.  When they point out abuse of scripture like this, it weakens the credibility of all fundamentalist and those who think Christians should totally abstain from alcohol. 

Being stronger than the Bible might be a short term gain in that it makes your sermon seem more forceful, but its a long term loss because it through a into question a preachers credibility.[/quote]

And, even though we disagree on the alcohol point, I can agree with your sentiment here. (FTR: My brother and his friend burned alive after they were rear-ended by a guy who was later charged with his third DUI. I don't use that as an reason to "preach against alcohol" anymore than I use the flaming homosexual who picks up men at bars to "preach against sex". I recognize that a man is wicked because of what comes out of him, not because of what goes into him.)

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

[quote author=pastorryanhayden]There are probably 20 warnings against the dangers of alcohol abuse...

Fixed. Now couple that with the 100+ instances where wine is considered a symbol of joy and we might be onto something...

[quote author=pastorryanhayden]...numerous references to drunkards not being a part of the body of Christ, commands not to keep company with drunkards...[/quote]

This one is always a favorite of mine: The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’

[quote author=pastorryanhayden]and stories where alcohol abuse was ruinous.[/quote]

Fixed that one for you as well. 

[quote author=pastorryanhayden]I have no problem warning people about alcohol, I have no problem telling people it's best not to touch it and I don't think you can be a faithful bible preacher and never preach against alcohol.[/quote]

You don't think you can be a faithful preacher and not preach some form of gnosticism, calling that which God has made evil and flat telling people to avoid what He explicitly calls a blessing in certain circumstances?

[quote author=pastorryanhayden]I have a problem with people who base a sermon argument about Christ's deity on a verse taken out of context.  I have a problem with people adding to the Word of God.  I have a problem with people so self-righteous they cannot admit that other people have come to a different opinion.

BTW I hate alcohol.  My father is not a Christian and had a party every weekend where I got the pleasure of watching grown men imbibe themselves then act like toddlers.  I've also seen Christians make excuses do their drunkenness and become addicted to alcohol.

Again, my original post was not about the alcohol, but the way the scriptures were handled.  SFL has been vicious to me.  When they point out abuse of scripture like this, it weakens the credibility of all fundamentalist and those who think Christians should totally abstain from alcohol. 

Being stronger than the Bible might be a short term gain in that it makes your sermon seem more forceful, but its a long term loss because it through a into question a preachers credibility.[/quote]

And, even though we disagree on the alcohol point, I can agree with your sentiment here. (FTR: My brother and his friend burned alive after they were rear-ended by a guy who was later charged with his third DUI. I don't use that as an reason to "preach against alcohol" anymore than I use the flaming homosexual who picks up men at bars to "preach against sex". I recognize that a man is wicked because of what comes out of him, not because of what goes into him.)
[/quote]

I wish rsc2a understood Gnosticism....I wish he understood obtuse.
I wish he understood. Period.

 

[Just John]

Ozzy,
Prov 20:1 can be read as a warning against over consumption. 
Again, I'm not for Christians drinking alcohol.  I just think its dishonest to compare Christians who believe alcohol is ok in moderation to homosexual advocates twisting scripture.  One is a lot clearer than the other.
Also, the point of the op was not that alcohol was ok for Christians (although that's what the debate turned into here) the point was that the preacher quite obviously and blatantly mishandled scripture and a bunch of heathen scorners pointed it out.  I meant it as a warning to be careful with the Word.  Not as a rubber stamp for social drinking.
I believe the Bible is overwhelmingly negative about alcohol and that in 2013, there is not one good reason for a child of God to drink.  But I also accept that there are people throughout history who have loved and defended God'S Word as much as I who came to different conclusions. 
I have said negative things about alcohol many times from the pulpit, I have never once said anything in preaching to give people the opinion that drinking is ok, but I've also been careful to not say things the Bible does not say.

it can be read anyway one wants to read it ,,, I guess .But I fail to see the words over consumption  or the implication that what it means. Kinda like the 2lips saying All doesnt mean all!

There are probably 20 warnings against the dangers of alcohol, numerous references to drunkards not being a part of the body of Christ, commands not to keep company with drunkards and stories where alcohol was ruinous.  I have no problem warning people about alcohol, I have no problem telling people it's best not to touch it and I don't think you can be a faithful bible preacher and never preach against alcohol.  I have a problem with people who base a sermon argument about Christ's deity on a verse taken out of context.  I have a problem with people adding to the Word of God.  I have a problem with people so self-righteous they cannot admit that other people have come to a different opinion.
BTW I hate alcohol.  My father is not a Christian and had a party every weekend where I got the pleasure of watching grown men imbibe themselves then act like toddlers.  I've also seen Christians make excuses do their drunkenness and become addicted to alcohol.
Again, my original post was not about the alcohol, but the way the scriptures were handled.  SFL has been vicious to me.  When they point out abuse of scripture like this, it weakens the credibility of all fundamentalist and those who think Christians should totally abstain from alcohol. 
Being stronger than the Bible might be a short term gain in that it makes your sermon seem more forceful, but its a long term loss because it through a into question a preachers credibility.

YES! Your warnings against alcohol and your teachings of the Bible's warnings of alcohol abuse are so much more credible because you are truthful. Others would do well to emulate.

 

[Recovering IFB]

I wish rsc2a understood Gnosticism....I wish he understood obtuse.
I wish he understood. Period.

I wished you and Ryan understood Bible, evidence right in front of you two. Ryan uses his personal experience over Scriptures. But I cant blame you guys, you have bought trained into this Finneyist belief that moralism trumps Bible.

I'm not for Christians drinking alcohol.  I just think its dishonest to compare Christians who believe alcohol is ok in moderation to homosexual advocates twisting scripture.  One is a lot clearer than the other.

Yes, One is a blessing and one is sinful behavior, I'm sure you can figure that out

the point was that the preacher quite obviously and blatantly mishandled scripture and a bunch of heathen scorners pointed it out. 

Really?!?! Ryan, who are you? Do you know the Lord? I mean, Do you know the Lord? You really think of yourself in such a way that you can cast a judgement people on an online forum to call them heathens? Another one of the big reasons the the IFBx'rs who sit there in their pulpits calling people heathens, when they are the very people that Our Lord Jesus died for. Did you forget what you came from? If they are "heathens", where is your sympathy? but is it because they disagree with you?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I wish rsc2a understood Gnosticism....I wish he understood obtuse.
I wish he understood. Period.

I wished you and Ryan understood Bible, evidence right in front of you two. Ryan uses his personal experience over Scriptures. But I cant blame you guys, you have bought trained into this Finneyist belief that moralism trumps Bible.

I'm not for Christians drinking alcohol.  I just think its dishonest to compare Christians who believe alcohol is ok in moderation to homosexual advocates twisting scripture.  One is a lot clearer than the other.

Yes, One is a blessing and one is sinful behavior, I'm sure you can figure that out

the point was that the preacher quite obviously and blatantly mishandled scripture and a bunch of heathen scorners pointed it out. 

Really?!?! Ryan, who are you? Do you know the Lord? I mean, Do you know the Lord? You really think of yourself in such a way that you can cast a judgement people on an online forum to call them heathens? Another one of the big reasons the the IFBx'rs who sit there in their pulpits calling people heathens, when they are the very people that Our Lord Jesus died for. Did you forget what you came from? If they are "heathens", where is your sympathy? but is it because they disagree with you?

I don't believe drinking alcohol is a sin.
Again, you use the tactics you claim to hate in the fundys....

 

[pastorryanhayden]

Really?!?! Ryan, who are you? Do you know the Lord? I mean, Do you know the Lord? You really think of yourself in such a way that you can cast a judgement people on an online forum to call them heathens? Another one of the big reasons the the IFBx'rs who sit there in their pulpits calling people heathens, when they are the very people that Our Lord Jesus died for. Did you forget what you came from? If they are "heathens", where is your sympathy? but is it because they disagree with you?

I refer to SFL as a bunch of heathens because their commenters routinely act in a way completely contrary to all of the fruits of the Spirit.  Maybe i should say they act like heathen.  That's not to say no SFL readers are saved, but the overall tone of the sight is cruel, hateful, and mocking and many of its regular commenters are open homosexuals and avowed atheists.  I know there is much to despise about fundamentalism, but that doesn't give you a pass to ignore the scripture for catharsis. 
BTW I would say the same thing about hateful, mocking IFBx preachers.
"The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace."

 

[christundivided]

Really?!?! Ryan, who are you? Do you know the Lord? I mean, Do you know the Lord? You really think of yourself in such a way that you can cast a judgement people on an online forum to call them heathens? Another one of the big reasons the the IFBx'rs who sit there in their pulpits calling people heathens, when they are the very people that Our Lord Jesus died for. Did you forget what you came from? If they are "heathens", where is your sympathy? but is it because they disagree with you?

I refer to SFL as a bunch of heathens because their commenters routinely act in a way completely contrary to all of the fruits of the Spirit.  Maybe i should say they act like heathen.  That's not to say no SFL readers are saved, but the overall tone of the sight is cruel, hateful, and mocking and many of its regular commenters are open homosexuals and avowed atheists.  I know there is much to despise about fundamentalism, but that doesn't give you a pass to ignore the scripture for catharsis. 
BTW I would say the same thing about hateful, mocking IFBx preachers.
"The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace."

I believe your issue has more to do with "preaching against alcohol" and not "preaching against the dangers of alcohol". Even though you have readily admitted that good reformed men of old did not do the same, you haven't take the next step. You're still holding on to the misconception that alcohol is altogether wrong. While you may allow for "SOME" to partake, you still consider it a bad choice.

With all due respect, its not your choice to make and its not you choice to judge. Once you get past this, then you will have the proper perspective. I have never seen anyone here promote drunkenness. No one. Never. On the other hand, you have several here that think just a little "alcohol" will ruin anyone. You also, have some here that believe "just a little" is a stupid choice that will end up ruining just about anyone. Where do you fall in this?

 

[Recovering IFB]

I don't believe drinking alcohol is a sin.
Again, you use the tactics you claim to hate in the fundys....

If you don't think it's a sin, then why are you dead set against it. You and Ryan are not being consistent. Do you preach this way against gluttony?  This has always seem to be acceptable behavior in IFB circles..... There was a preacher who was/ is morbidly obese who visited our church and joked from the pulpit that his belt "was a leather strap around a chicken graveyard" which got a huge laugh and "haymens" from the congregation. Funny, we never hear pastors railing on this very subject which was deemed unacceptable in Jesus's day.
  As CU said, nobody is advocating drunkeness but have seen everybody advocate thankfulness as Calvin said....
"It is permissible to use wine not only for necessity, but also to make us merry...... [it must be moderate] lest men forget themselves, drown their senses,.....in making merry [those who enjoy wine] feel a livelier gratitude to God."

 

[Castor Muscular]

  As CU said, nobody is advocating drunkeness but have seen everybody advocate thankfulness as Calvin said....
"It is permissible to use wine not only for necessity, but also to make us merry...... [it must be moderate] lest men forget themselves, drown their senses,.....in making merry [those who enjoy wine] feel a livelier gratitude to God."

Good quote!  Never saw that before. 

 

[brianb]

If you believe the wine in that passage was fermented then Jesus dumped another 135 gallons of premium alcohol on an already drunk crowd at a wedding feast which His own mother attended. To put that in context, examine what Proverbs says happens when people are drunk. And Jesus made them drunker...

Right.

I don't think they were drunk. That would be very strange for a Jewish wedding. Any one who is already drunk and wants more would have to be insane or an alcoholic. Even in a Christian or secular wedding most people are not drunk where there is alcohol. The verse means that collectively those at the wedding drank all the wine because there wasn't enough for everyone.

 

[Castor Muscular]

If you believe the wine in that passage was fermented then Jesus dumped another 135 gallons of premium alcohol on an already drunk crowd at a wedding feast which His own mother attended. To put that in context, examine what Proverbs says happens when people are drunk. And Jesus made them drunker...

Right.

I don't think they were drunk. That would be very strange for a Jewish wedding. Any one who is already drunk and wants more would have to be insane or an alcoholic. Even in a Christian or secular wedding most people are not drunk where there is alcohol. The verse means that collectively those at the wedding drank all the wine because there wasn't enough for everyone.

Maybe the winemaster didn't plan well.  Or maybe a lot of people crashed the wedding, and there were far more people than they expected.  Or maybe an alien space ship dropped in the middle of the wedding, and aliens sucked up all the wine.  Or, it was probably Bush's fault (and we're all racists).  The Bible doesn't say, so anything's possible. 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I think it was really Binaca

 

[4everfsu]

I don't drink any alcoholic or wine beverages. I would have no problem drinking wine if you could make it like Jesus straight out of water. Until then I will stick with my Dr. Pepper.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I don't believe drinking alcohol is a sin.
Again, you use the tactics you claim to hate in the fundys....

If you don't think it's a sin, then why are you dead set against it. You and Ryan are not being consistent. Do you preach this way against gluttony?  This has always seem to be acceptable behavior in IFB circles..... There was a preacher who was/ is morbidly obese who visited our church and joked from the pulpit that his belt "was a leather strap around a chicken graveyard" which got a huge laugh and "haymens" from the congregation. Funny, we never hear pastors railing on this very subject which was deemed unacceptable in Jesus's day.
  As CU said, nobody is advocating drunkeness but have seen everybody advocate thankfulness as Calvin said....
"It is permissible to use wine not only for necessity, but also to make us merry...... [it must be moderate] lest men forget themselves, drown their senses,.....in making merry [those who enjoy wine] feel a livelier gratitude to God."

Find a quote that shows I have ever said it was sinful!
And, I have preached 'against' gluttony...in this very context, more than a few times over the years.
Again...you use the same tactics you claim to hate in the fundys.

"Does't thou not knowest what thou talkest about-eth"?
That's rhetorical, the answer is obvious! 

 

[christundivided]

I don't believe drinking alcohol is a sin.
Again, you use the tactics you claim to hate in the fundys....

If you don't think it's a sin, then why are you dead set against it. You and Ryan are not being consistent. Do you preach this way against gluttony?  This has always seem to be acceptable behavior in IFB circles..... There was a preacher who was/ is morbidly obese who visited our church and joked from the pulpit that his belt "was a leather strap around a chicken graveyard" which got a huge laugh and "haymens" from the congregation. Funny, we never hear pastors railing on this very subject which was deemed unacceptable in Jesus's day.
  As CU said, nobody is advocating drunkeness but have seen everybody advocate thankfulness as Calvin said....
"It is permissible to use wine not only for necessity, but also to make us merry...... [it must be moderate] lest men forget themselves, drown their senses,.....in making merry [those who enjoy wine] feel a livelier gratitude to God."

Find a quote that shows I have ever said it was sinful!
And, I have preached 'against' gluttony...in this very context, more than a few times over the years.
Again...you use the same tactics you claim to hate in the fundys.

"Does't thou not knowest what thou talkest about-eth"?
That's rhetorical, the answer is obvious! 

I haven't seen you say it was sinful. Yet, I would say that you generally sympathize with those who do. How many "preachers" do you personally know that wouldn't say wine is sinful?

 

[Recovering IFB]

I don't believe drinking alcohol is a sin.
Again, you use the tactics you claim to hate in the fundys....

If you don't think it's a sin, then why are you dead set against it. You and Ryan are not being consistent. Do you preach this way against gluttony?  This has always seem to be acceptable behavior in IFB circles..... There was a preacher who was/ is morbidly obese who visited our church and joked from the pulpit that his belt "was a leather strap around a chicken graveyard" which got a huge laugh and "haymens" from the congregation. Funny, we never hear pastors railing on this very subject which was deemed unacceptable in Jesus's day.
  As CU said, nobody is advocating drunkeness but have seen everybody advocate thankfulness as Calvin said....
"It is permissible to use wine not only for necessity, but also to make us merry...... [it must be moderate] lest men forget themselves, drown their senses,.....in making merry [those who enjoy wine] feel a livelier gratitude to God."

Find a quote that shows I have ever said it was sinful!
And, I have preached 'against' gluttony...in this very context, more than a few times over the years.
Again...you use the same tactics you claim to hate in the fundys.

"Does't thou not knowest what thou talkest about-eth"?
That's rhetorical, the answer is obvious! 

Read what I wrote! I know what you said, and you never presented proof of your sermons that you preached for and against. And for my tactics, I guess you now knows what it's like to be a liberal freebird, without the alcohol.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I don't believe drinking alcohol is a sin.
Again, you use the tactics you claim to hate in the fundys....

If you don't think it's a sin, then why are you dead set against it. You and Ryan are not being consistent. Do you preach this way against gluttony?  This has always seem to be acceptable behavior in IFB circles..... There was a preacher who was/ is morbidly obese who visited our church and joked from the pulpit that his belt "was a leather strap around a chicken graveyard" which got a huge laugh and "haymens" from the congregation. Funny, we never hear pastors railing on this very subject which was deemed unacceptable in Jesus's day.
  As CU said, nobody is advocating drunkeness but have seen everybody advocate thankfulness as Calvin said....
"It is permissible to use wine not only for necessity, but also to make us merry...... [it must be moderate] lest men forget themselves, drown their senses,.....in making merry [those who enjoy wine] feel a livelier gratitude to God."

Find a quote that shows I have ever said it was sinful!
And, I have preached 'against' gluttony...in this very context, more than a few times over the years.
Again...you use the same tactics you claim to hate in the fundys.

"Does't thou not knowest what thou talkest about-eth"?
That's rhetorical, the answer is obvious! 

Read what I wrote! I know what you said, and you never presented proof of your sermons that you preached for and against. And for my tactics, I guess you now knows what it's like to be a liberal freebird, without the alcohol.

Again, my posts here on the subject are just that....here to be read by all.
Proof? I've NEVER stated any other position on alcohol here or the other forum.
Sorry I don't fit your stereotype of a fundy!
Your tactics illustrate the point 1611 made about freebirds having the same attitude as the Xers they hate.....

 

[Recovering IFB]

Wrong again, maybe it's my inadequate education that I don't properly interpret my self though my post, but I don't hate anybody, I really don't. It's actually sympathy, that people get caught up in their own righteousness that put Christ second, I have reached out to more people In my old church than have reached to me
I don't hate you bro, nor frag nor Ozzy not anyone else, I'd offer my home to you I'd you were near by to hang out and talk, anyone in the western Chicago suburbs or traveling this way, let me know, I'll have a cold one waiting for you, pop or whatever you want
Mi casa Su casa