Should Christians confess their sins?

Mathew Ward said:
The we in verse 6 are Christians?

The we in verse 8 are Christians?

The we in verse 10 are Christians?

If he is the propitiation for our sins (2:2) and he is writing because their sins are forgiven (2:12) why do they need to confess their sins?

I know you don't agree...but the context of the letter demands that this is true...all the "we's" are believers.  And he is not talking about their eternal state that has already been settled, but he is talking about their daily walk.  In reading the Scripture you must distiquish between our position in Christ that does not change and our practical daily walk which can and does change.

You must believe it is possible for a Christian to walk in darkness...though that is not his permanant state...Paul warned against that in Galatians 6 when he warned Christians not to walk in the flesh, but rather be lead by the Spirit. 

How can a professing Christian pastor commit adultery!  Certainly he wasn't walking in the light when he did that.
 
T-Bone said:
Mathew Ward said:
The we in verse 6 are Christians?

The we in verse 8 are Christians?

The we in verse 10 are Christians?

If he is the propitiation for our sins (2:2) and he is writing because their sins are forgiven (2:12) why do they need to confess their sins?

I know you don't agree...but the context of the letter demands that this is true...all the "we's" are believers.  And he is not talking about their eternal state that has already been settled, but he is talking about their daily walk.  In reading the Scripture you must distiquish between our position in Christ that does not change and our practical daily walk which can and does change.

You must believe it is possible for a Christian to walk in darkness...though that is not his permanant state...Paul warned against that in Galatians 6 when he warned Christians not to walk in the flesh, but rather be lead by the Spirit. 

How can a professing Christian pastor commit adultery!  Certainly he wasn't walking in the light when he did that.

Either a person is saved and in the light or he is unsaved and in darkness.  As far as the we's and that church later in the epistle he makes this comment...

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:19-22 KJV)

So obviously all the we's were not Christians.

Paul said in Galatians that our flesh was crucified with Christ.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20 KJV)

He made it plainer...

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Galatians 5:24 KJV)

Not to mention Romans 6

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Romans 6:6 KJV)

No besides 1 John 1:9, which we differ on.  Are there any other NT references to confessing our sins to God?  If this is so important of a doctrine and not confessing my sins adversly affects my fellowship with God I would think that it would be dealt with in a fairly large magnitude, don't you?
 
Mathew Ward said:
T-Bone said:
Mathew Ward said:
The we in verse 6 are Christians?

The we in verse 8 are Christians?

The we in verse 10 are Christians?

If he is the propitiation for our sins (2:2) and he is writing because their sins are forgiven (2:12) why do they need to confess their sins?

I know you don't agree...but the context of the letter demands that this is true...all the "we's" are believers.  And he is not talking about their eternal state that has already been settled, but he is talking about their daily walk.  In reading the Scripture you must distiquish between our position in Christ that does not change and our practical daily walk which can and does change.

You must believe it is possible for a Christian to walk in darkness...though that is not his permanant state...Paul warned against that in Galatians 6 when he warned Christians not to walk in the flesh, but rather be lead by the Spirit. 

How can a professing Christian pastor commit adultery!  Certainly he wasn't walking in the light when he did that.

Either a person is saved and in the light or he is unsaved and in darkness.  As far as the we's and that church later in the epistle he makes this comment...

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:19-22 KJV)

So obviously all the we's were not Christians.

Paul said in Galatians that our flesh was crucified with Christ.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20 KJV)

He made it plainer...

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Galatians 5:24 KJV)

Not to mention Romans 6

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Romans 6:6 KJV)

No besides 1 John 1:9, which we differ on.  Are there any other NT references to confessing our sins to God?  If this is so important of a doctrine and not confessing my sins adversly affects my fellowship with God I would think that it would be dealt with in a fairly large magnitude, don't you?

Actually the "they went out from us because they weren't of us" proves that the "we" has to do with true believers...there are clearly in the organized church the "we" and the "they"...in John's letter to be consistent the "we's" are expressed as the true believers and the "they's" are the apostate (gnostics in this case) who are in the church organization, but not truly in the body.

Your theology requires that a Christian walk in sinless perfection, because of the new creation verses from your perspective. Life itself and an honest look at any of our walks prove this not to be so.  Our position in Christ cannot and does not change...in Him we are made perfect before God and are acceptable because of what He has done...but clearly you and I don't always walk in Him and abide in Him...thus we sin.

As far as  the number of times in the NT you find the phrase concerning confession, doesn't really matter to me...if it says it once that is enough.

Brother we are not going to agree with each other clearly.  I make a distinction between our standing and our walk.  The santifying work of God in me and you is to make our walk more and more like out position.  So while I agree that all my sin is under the blood of Christ and is eternally forgiven...I also believe that if I choose to walk in sin it affects my effectiveness and my ability to hear and follow God.  In confession I come in to agreement with God about the reality of my act of sin...how horrible it is...and I turn from it to Him...and I am promised that I not only have His forgiveness...but I walk in it too.

Don't know how I can explain it any better...we will just have to leave it at that and pray that we both walk in the righteousness of Christ daily rather than in the flesh....blessings!
 
Of course, John is writing to a church, not to Christian individuals.  Since a local assembly will always have a mixture of confessing believers and false professors, it's entirely appropriate for the apostle to write to them as fellow believers on the one hand, while on the other hand to warn the false brethren amongst them of the consequences of their sin and unbelief.
 
There are two "types" or "aspects" to forgiveness: one is standing and one is relationship, as have been mentioned.

I would say that 1 John 1:9 is addressed to believers, and the word for confess is a present active participle. It implies a continuous action. However, this confession for forgiveness is not for standing, but for relationship.

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


John is addressing a plethora of different arguments (mostly from proto-gnostics, of course).
Some would go to extremes and try to say that we have no sin and have no need of forgiveness.
Some would go to other extremes and try to say that we as in the evil flesh can never be acceptable as righteous as long as we are in the flesh.
In answering the arguments, John is taking a "middle ground" that says that (1)everyone sins and no one is perfect, (2)there is a need to be right with God, (3)it is possible to be right with God, and (4)to be right with God and fellowship with Him requires us to agree with Him about our sins.

This is not to dismiss 1 John 1:9 as a characteristic of regeneration. A regenerate person will follow 1 John 1:9. However, it is not talking about getting justified over and over again. It is about children maintaining a proper relationship with their Father.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.


God will chasten His children when they sin. To restore fellowship, the children need to agree with their Father about their sin.

Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.


Question: If Almighty God has already forgiven us all sins, why would we have any further need of forgiving other believers and having them forgive us? The obvious answer is--fellowship. We all have the standing before God of having the righteousness of the Son. However, when we offend others, we need to make it right with them and seek their forgiveness to restore fellowship. Likewise, when we sin against God as His children, we need to agree with Him about our sins to maintain a proper relationship as children to our Father.
 
T-Bone said:
Actually the "they went out from us because they weren't of us" proves that the "we" has to do with true believers...there are clearly in the organized church the "we" and the "they"...in John's letter to be consistent the "we's" are expressed as the true believers and the "they's" are the apostate (gnostics in this case) who are in the church organization, but not truly in the body.

Your theology requires that a Christian walk in sinless perfection, because of the new creation verses from your perspective. Life itself and an honest look at any of our walks prove this not to be so.  Our position in Christ cannot and does not change...in Him we are made perfect before God and are acceptable because of what He has done...but clearly you and I don't always walk in Him and abide in Him...thus we sin.

As far as  the number of times in the NT you find the phrase concerning confession, doesn't really matter to me...if it says it once that is enough.

Brother we are not going to agree with each other clearly.  I make a distinction between our standing and our walk.  The santifying work of God in me and you is to make our walk more and more like out position.  So while I agree that all my sin is under the blood of Christ and is eternally forgiven...I also believe that if I choose to walk in sin it affects my effectiveness and my ability to hear and follow God.  In confession I come in to agreement with God about the reality of my act of sin...how horrible it is...and I turn from it to Him...and I am promised that I not only have His forgiveness...but I walk in it too.

Don't know how I can explain it any better...we will just have to leave it at that and pray that we both walk in the righteousness of Christ daily rather than in the flesh....blessings!

So were there "we's" in the church that later were going to go out from among them?  The answer is yes.  So the we's do not definitely define the Christians.

Folks have ascribed both sinless perfection and damnation to this view and neither of those would be correct.  You asked me if Christians sin and I said yes.

You and I both know that being transformed into the image of Christ is a marathon and not a sprint.

If 1 John 1:9 was written to Christians as you assert, if a Christian does not confess his sin does God not forgive nor cleanse him from unrighteousness?

If 1 John 1:9 was written to unbelievers, if they come to Christ confessing their sin Christ will forgive them and cleanse them from all unrighteousness.  If they walk in darkness and say they have no sin and don't ask for forgiveness then God won't forgive him.

It seems that the hermenutics supports the second senerio above.  But since this is such a vital doctrine in the NT where are all the other references commanding a Christian to confess their sins or it will adversely affect their fellowship with God?

Or I could believe that all my sins were paid for by Christ when he died on the cross.

But I agree with you that walking in the Spirit and reckoning the flesh dead in the capacities that God has called us too will bring Him the honor and glory He deserves.
 
Ransom said:
Of course, John is writing to a church, not to Christian individuals.  Since a local assembly will always have a mixture of confessing believers and false professors, it's entirely appropriate for the apostle to write to them as fellow believers on the one hand, while on the other hand to warn the false brethren amongst them of the consequences of their sin and unbelief.

Very true...
 
Ransom said:
Of course, John is writing to a church, not to Christian individuals.  Since a local assembly will always have a mixture of confessing believers and false professors, it's entirely appropriate for the apostle to write to them as fellow believers on the one hand, while on the other hand to warn the false brethren amongst them of the consequences of their sin and unbelief.

The NT letters were addressed for the admonition and instruction of believers...but they also contained warnings to and instruction for sinners to be saved.

But, the letters were addressed to believers....the false professors were not a part of the true church.

In 1 John, the we John spoke to were believers...not we who have our name on the roll but may or may not be true believers.
 
AresMan said:
There are two "types" or "aspects" to forgiveness: one is standing and one is relationship, as have been mentioned.

I would say that 1 John 1:9 is addressed to believers, and the word for confess is a present active participle. It implies a continuous action. However, this confession for forgiveness is not for standing, but for relationship.

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


John is addressing a plethora of different arguments (mostly from proto-gnostics, of course).
Some would go to extremes and try to say that we have no sin and have no need of forgiveness.
Some would go to other extremes and try to say that we as in the evil flesh can never be acceptable as righteous as long as we are in the flesh.
In answering the arguments, John is taking a "middle ground" that says that (1)everyone sins and no one is perfect, (2)there is a need to be right with God, (3)it is possible to be right with God, and (4)to be right with God and fellowship with Him requires us to agree with Him about our sins.

This is not to dismiss 1 John 1:9 as a characteristic of regeneration. A regenerate person will follow 1 John 1:9. However, it is not talking about getting justified over and over again. It is about children maintaining a proper relationship with their Father.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.


God will chasten His children when they sin. To restore fellowship, the children need to agree with their Father about their sin.

Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.


Question: If Almighty God has already forgiven us all sins, why would we have any further need of forgiving other believers and having them forgive us? The obvious answer is--fellowship. We all have the standing before God of having the righteousness of the Son. However, when we offend others, we need to make it right with them and seek their forgiveness to restore fellowship. Likewise, when we sin against God as His children, we need to agree with Him about our sins to maintain a proper relationship as children to our Father.

Your position is that if a Christian does not confess his sins to God then he falls out of fellowship with God.  What does that mean?  Does God not hear our prayers or will not answer them?  Does He withhold love or His protective hand?  Are there any verses in the NT that teach when a Christian confesses his sin that it restores fellowship with God?

The chastisement is not for the purpose of confession of sin it is for the purpose of bringing us into subjection and to partake of His holiness...all for our profit.

In order to get confession of sins into this passage you must read into it.

Hebrews 12:6-10 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

But if a Christian confesses his sins, will he avoid chastisement?

If a Christian does not confess his sins, will he be chastised?
 
Matt, you continue to ask for verses where the word confession is used.  You miss the point on two counts.  Beastiality is not forbidden in the new testament, so do you think the lack of repeated mentions in Scripture invalidates its prohibition?  And secondly, the concept of confession (agreement with God about sin) is elsewhere in Scripture, as I pointed out in regards to repentance/sorrow, and AresMan pointed out with regards to forgiveness.


In addition to those points, you find a similar concept of restoration to fellowship (on a horizontal level) here....

Mat 5:21  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22  But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23  Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24  Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25  Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

"Agree with then adversary quickly" obviously means to go and work out the animosity/sin towards thy brother so that there can be restoration, and consequently the gift of sacrifice can be offered vertically.
 
ALAYMAN said:
Matt, you continue to ask for verses where the word confession is used.  You miss the point on two counts.  Beastiality is not forbidden in the new testament, so do you think the lack of repeated mentions in Scripture invalidates its prohibition?  And secondly, the concept of confession (agreement with God about sin) is elsewhere in Scripture, as I pointed out in regards to repentance/sorrow, and AresMan pointed out with regards to forgiveness.


In addition to those points, you find a similar concept of restoration to fellowship (on a horizontal level) here....

Mat 5:21  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22  But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23  Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24  Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25  Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

"Agree with then adversary quickly" obviously means to go and work out the animosity/sin towards thy brother so that there can be restoration, and consequently the gift of sacrifice can be offered vertically.

I think there is a difference between the first covenant and the second.  I believe Scripture shows that.  When you want to use confession of sin to restore fellowship with God from the first covenant and apply it to the second then you would need Scripture to back up your premise.

Why don't we have animal sacrifices as an offering for sin?  Because there is adaquate Scripture that teaches such.

I have said that we need to confess our faults to each other (and used Scripture from the NT) to those with whom we have hurt.  We need to secure their forgiveness in order to restore their fellowship.  Now with God who has forgiven us of all our sin, we have already secured that forgiveness. So the principle used for dealing with a brother doesn't apply with our dealing with God.
 
Mathew Ward said:
ALAYMAN said:
Matt, you continue to ask for verses where the word confession is used.  You miss the point on two counts.  Beastiality is not forbidden in the new testament, so do you think the lack of repeated mentions in Scripture invalidates its prohibition?  And secondly, the concept of confession (agreement with God about sin) is elsewhere in Scripture, as I pointed out in regards to repentance/sorrow, and AresMan pointed out with regards to forgiveness.


In addition to those points, you find a similar concept of restoration to fellowship (on a horizontal level) here....

Mat 5:21  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22  But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23  Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24  Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25  Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

"Agree with then adversary quickly" obviously means to go and work out the animosity/sin towards thy brother so that there can be restoration, and consequently the gift of sacrifice can be offered vertically.

I think there is a difference between the first covenant and the second.  I believe Scripture shows that.  When you want to use confession of sin to restore fellowship with God from the first covenant and apply it to the second then you would need Scripture to back up your premise.

Why don't we have animal sacrifices as an offering for sin?  Because there is adaquate Scripture that teaches such.

I have said that we need to confess our faults to each other (and used Scripture from the NT) to those with whom we have hurt.  We need to secure their forgiveness in order to restore their fellowship.  Now with God who has forgiven us of all our sin, we have already secured that forgiveness. So the principle used for dealing with a brother doesn't apply with our dealing with God.

Since you dismiss this text out of hand as being part of the Old Covenant does that mean you think that you can have enmity in your heart against a brother and still properly worship God?
 
Maybe someone could answer these questions...

If 1 John 1:9 was written to Christians, if a Christian does not confess his sin does God not forgive his sin nor cleanse him from unrighteousness?

When our fellowship with God is broken because of sin, what is the result of that broken fellowship?

 
Mathew Ward said:
Maybe someone could answer these questions...

If 1 John 1:9 was written to Christians, if a Christian does not confess his sin does God not forgive his sin nor cleanse him from unrighteousness?

When our fellowship with God is broken because of sin, what is the result of that broken fellowship?

Jesus said in the model prayer that if we should forgive or we wouldn't be forgiven.....
Do you discount His words and therefore the model prayer was a model for thr Old Covenant, which was ending!
Please.

And John, in chapter 2, says he writes that they sin not?
That lost people sin not?

If any man sin, he has an advocate with the Father.
 
ALAYMAN said:
Matt, you continue to ask for verses where the word confession is used.  You miss the point on two counts.  Beastiality is not forbidden in the new testament, so do you think the lack of repeated mentions in Scripture invalidates its prohibition?  And secondly, the concept of confession (agreement with God about sin) is elsewhere in Scripture, as I pointed out in regards to repentance/sorrow, and AresMan pointed out with regards to forgiveness.


In addition to those points, you find a similar concept of restoration to fellowship (on a horizontal level) here....

Mat 5:21  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22  But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23  Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24  Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25  Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

"Agree with then adversary quickly" obviously means to go and work out the animosity/sin towards thy brother so that there can be restoration, and consequently the gift of sacrifice can be offered vertically.

He would also negate the model prayer.....as I brilliantly posted earlier!  :D
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
Mathew Ward said:
Maybe someone could answer these questions...

If 1 John 1:9 was written to Christians, if a Christian does not confess his sin does God not forgive his sin nor cleanse him from unrighteousness?

When our fellowship with God is broken because of sin, what is the result of that broken fellowship?

Jesus said in the model prayer that if we should forgive or we wouldn't be forgiven.....
Do you discount His words and therefore the model prayer was a model for thr Old Covenant, which was ending!
Please.

And John, in chapter 2, says he writes that they sin not?
That lost people sin not?

If any man sin, he has an advocate with the Father.

So if someone hasn't forgiven his brother and God won't forgive his sin does that mean he will send them to hell because they have unforgiven sin?

Because in your position of mixing the 2 covenants your sin will separate you from God according to Isaiah 59:2, but you don't say what that means to the Christian today.

But to make sure I understand your position at salvation God forgives all sin past, present and future.  But in the future if you sin and don't confess it or if you refuse to forgive your brother God will not forgive your sin that he has already forgiven you of?  Is that correct?

I have asked this repeatedly of you in regards to 1 John 1:9 but you won't, can't or refuse to answer.
 
Mathew Ward said:
Maybe someone could answer these questions...

If 1 John 1:9 was written to Christians, if a Christian does not confess his sin does God not forgive his sin nor cleanse him from unrighteousness?

From God's perspective our sins are already paid for forensically, and we are eternally secure, but from our perspective, we are warned to not fall away by making sure we examining ourselves to see that we are in the faith.  It's an aspect of perserverance, and Scriptures warns the believer to be diligent to pursue holiness (without which no man will see God) and such admonitions regularly.

Here's Johnny Macs answer to your question (and he covers your erroneous dispensational view of the covenants as well)...


Well, some teachers increasingly popular, by the way today, claim that since we are already forgiven we must never ask God to forgive our sins. To do so, they tell us, is an expression of unbelief. It's an expression of doubt. And, in fact, you are calling God's Word into question. Why would you ever ask the Lord to forgive your sins when He has told you all your sins are already forgiven? And so they insist that 1 John 1:9 has nothing to do with Christians but it is an invitation to non-Christians. When I was writing the book on forgiveness, I used some illustration from the best-known contemporary proponents of this view, a man named Bob George who teaches on the radio, a popular author, he says that Christians who pray for forgiveness, quote: "Live in daily insecurity, doubting whether all their sins are forgiven." He and several others who teach similarly claim that the only way to enjoy your liberty in Christ is to forget your sin, forget about it all together and just embrace God's forgiveness as a fully accomplished reality because of the work of Christ and never again pay any attention to your sin.

Well there's enough truth, of course, in saying that all your sins are forgiven to confuse people with that. And, you know, that's a...that would be a great way to live, pay absolutely no attention to your sin as if it didn't exist. That's what historically and theologically is known as antinomianism, disregard for the law of God and your violation of it. Our sins are all forgiven, that's true. But to say therefore we should pay no attention to our sin and if we ever were to ask forgiveness we would be disavowing, doubting or denying the promise of God indicates that you may understand some of the truth but you don't understand all the truth. It is true that all our sins are forgiven but that's not all the truth. From the perspective of God's judgment throne, the sins of believers are forgiven...forgiven, even before they're committed and even if they're never confessed. Did you get that one? Before the judgment throne of God the sins of believers are forgiven even before they are committed and even if they are never confessed because God has said He has forgiven all our sins.

As a righteous judge, He has done that because He thoroughly and completely punished Jesus Christ for our sins. The price is paid in full and therefore God by justice cannot hold us guilty because the price has been paid.

But that's not all the truth in this matter and to say that God therefore pays absolutely no attention to our sin is ridiculous and to say that you are to pay no attention to your sin is also ridiculous and dangerous. To say that we can sin and completely ignore it and bear no guilt and no remorse and offer no confession and ask for no forgiveness will, believe me, bring down on such a person's head the discipline and the displeasure of God. The idea that a Christian should never pray a penitent prayer seeking forgiveness is unbiblical, it's heretical. So-called Christians who think they can sin and never need to seek their Father's forgiveness is seriously deceived, but that is an increasingly popular view.

Another advocate says, I'm quoting, "You've probably heard people pray like this, 'And, Lord, we ask You to forgive us for all our sins,' but why do forgiven Christians ask God's forgiveness? Do they not believe they are forgiven? If they believe they're forgiven then why do they ask for it repeatedly? Their prayers reveal unbelief." Same approach. A few paragraphs later he proposes what he thinks is a better way to pray. This is what he writes, 'How frequently do you hear someone pray and...Lord, I thank You that I stand before You a completely forgiven man, thank You that I am as spotless as the driven snow? How frequently do you hear people pray that?' he asks. Those words are rare but they thrill the heart of God because they demonstrate faith that a man believes God who says we are forgiven in Christ. There is no way you're going to cozy up to God if you feel He is increasingly upset with you. To feel secure you must believe that He does not hold one single sin against you."

Here is a bold statement he writes, "It is impossible for a Christian to ask God's forgiveness for a besetting sin the umpteenth time and then snuggle up to Him. He will feel like God's patience is being stretched to the limit," end quote. I don't even know what cozy up and snuggle up to God means. But what he is saying is, you're never going to enjoy the presence of God until you stop thinking about your sin. And if you really want to get close to God, pay no attention to your sin. How much sense does that make? That's a happy doctrine for an antinomian. That's a wonderful conclusion to come to if you don't want to pay any attention to your sin. Very convenient theology.

But don't be under any illusions. Just because you tolerate your sin doesn't mean God does. In fact, the Bible teaches the opposite. Luke 11:4, Jesus said to the disciples, "Here's how you pray, 'Forgive us our sins.'"

You say, "Well what do people do with that verse?" Well, those who argue against praying for forgiveness say that that verse applies to the Old Covenant under Moses' law. They say that under the Old Covenant, under the law of Moses, under the legal dispensation of the past and maybe some future legal dispensations, some of them refer to, that prayer applied. In other words, when you ask for forgiveness you got it and the next time you asked you got it, and the next time you asked you got it. And that's how it was, they say, under the Old Covenant.

Guess what? That's never how it was under the Old Covenant...never. People were saved under the Old Covenant the same way they're saved under the New Covenant.
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/62-8

MW said:
When our fellowship with God is broken because of sin, what is the result of that broken fellowship?

As has been stated, chastening for the child of God.  And until we repent, the physical as well as spiritual effects are many, including sorrow and heaviness of heart, and loss of joy (Psalm 32 and 51).
 
Mathew Ward said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
Mathew Ward said:
Maybe someone could answer these questions...

If 1 John 1:9 was written to Christians, if a Christian does not confess his sin does God not forgive his sin nor cleanse him from unrighteousness?

When our fellowship with God is broken because of sin, what is the result of that broken fellowship?

Jesus said in the model prayer that if we should forgive or we wouldn't be forgiven.....
Do you discount His words and therefore the model prayer was a model for thr Old Covenant, which was ending!
Please.

And John, in chapter 2, says he writes that they sin not?
That lost people sin not?

If any man sin, he has an advocate with the Father.

So if someone hasn't forgiven his brother and God won't forgive his sin does that mean he will send them to hell because they have unforgiven sin?

Because in your position of mixing the 2 covenants your sin will separate you from God according to Isaiah 59:2, but you don't say what that means to the Christian today.

But to make sure I understand your position at salvation God forgives all sin past, present and future.  But in the future if you sin and don't confess it or if you refuse to forgive your brother God will not forgive your sin that he has already forgiven you of?  Is that correct?

I have asked this repeatedly of you in regards to 1 John 1:9 but you won't, can't or refuse to answer.

I think you might have a comprehension problem.....there is a vast difference between parental fellowship and the birth right. When I disobey as a son, it might bring chastisement but  I am born into Gods family and can never lose my salvation.

I believe that God doesn't impute sin to my account....just like David....you know, in Psalm 32 when he confessed his sins.
 
ALAYMAN said:
Mathew Ward said:
Maybe someone could answer these questions...

If 1 John 1:9 was written to Christians, if a Christian does not confess his sin does God not forgive his sin nor cleanse him from unrighteousness?

From God's perspective our sins are already paid for forensically, and we are eternally secure, but from our perspective, we are warned to not fall away by making sure we examining ourselves to see that we are in the faith.  It's an aspect of perserverance, and Scriptures warns the believer to be diligent to pursue holiness (without which no man will see God) and such admonitions regularly.

Here's Johnny Macs answer to your question (and he covers your erroneous dispensational view of the covenants as well)...


Well, some teachers increasingly popular, by the way today, claim that since we are already forgiven we must never ask God to forgive our sins. To do so, they tell us, is an expression of unbelief. It's an expression of doubt. And, in fact, you are calling God's Word into question. Why would you ever ask the Lord to forgive your sins when He has told you all your sins are already forgiven? And so they insist that 1 John 1:9 has nothing to do with Christians but it is an invitation to non-Christians. When I was writing the book on forgiveness, I used some illustration from the best-known contemporary proponents of this view, a man named Bob George who teaches on the radio, a popular author, he says that Christians who pray for forgiveness, quote: "Live in daily insecurity, doubting whether all their sins are forgiven." He and several others who teach similarly claim that the only way to enjoy your liberty in Christ is to forget your sin, forget about it all together and just embrace God's forgiveness as a fully accomplished reality because of the work of Christ and never again pay any attention to your sin.

Well there's enough truth, of course, in saying that all your sins are forgiven to confuse people with that. And, you know, that's a...that would be a great way to live, pay absolutely no attention to your sin as if it didn't exist. That's what historically and theologically is known as antinomianism, disregard for the law of God and your violation of it. Our sins are all forgiven, that's true. But to say therefore we should pay no attention to our sin and if we ever were to ask forgiveness we would be disavowing, doubting or denying the promise of God indicates that you may understand some of the truth but you don't understand all the truth. It is true that all our sins are forgiven but that's not all the truth. From the perspective of God's judgment throne, the sins of believers are forgiven...forgiven, even before they're committed and even if they're never confessed. Did you get that one? Before the judgment throne of God the sins of believers are forgiven even before they are committed and even if they are never confessed because God has said He has forgiven all our sins.

As a righteous judge, He has done that because He thoroughly and completely punished Jesus Christ for our sins. The price is paid in full and therefore God by justice cannot hold us guilty because the price has been paid.

But that's not all the truth in this matter and to say that God therefore pays absolutely no attention to our sin is ridiculous and to say that you are to pay no attention to your sin is also ridiculous and dangerous. To say that we can sin and completely ignore it and bear no guilt and no remorse and offer no confession and ask for no forgiveness will, believe me, bring down on such a person's head the discipline and the displeasure of God. The idea that a Christian should never pray a penitent prayer seeking forgiveness is unbiblical, it's heretical. So-called Christians who think they can sin and never need to seek their Father's forgiveness is seriously deceived, but that is an increasingly popular view.

Another advocate says, I'm quoting, "You've probably heard people pray like this, 'And, Lord, we ask You to forgive us for all our sins,' but why do forgiven Christians ask God's forgiveness? Do they not believe they are forgiven? If they believe they're forgiven then why do they ask for it repeatedly? Their prayers reveal unbelief." Same approach. A few paragraphs later he proposes what he thinks is a better way to pray. This is what he writes, 'How frequently do you hear someone pray and...Lord, I thank You that I stand before You a completely forgiven man, thank You that I am as spotless as the driven snow? How frequently do you hear people pray that?' he asks. Those words are rare but they thrill the heart of God because they demonstrate faith that a man believes God who says we are forgiven in Christ. There is no way you're going to cozy up to God if you feel He is increasingly upset with you. To feel secure you must believe that He does not hold one single sin against you."

Here is a bold statement he writes, "It is impossible for a Christian to ask God's forgiveness for a besetting sin the umpteenth time and then snuggle up to Him. He will feel like God's patience is being stretched to the limit," end quote. I don't even know what cozy up and snuggle up to God means. But what he is saying is, you're never going to enjoy the presence of God until you stop thinking about your sin. And if you really want to get close to God, pay no attention to your sin. How much sense does that make? That's a happy doctrine for an antinomian. That's a wonderful conclusion to come to if you don't want to pay any attention to your sin. Very convenient theology.

But don't be under any illusions. Just because you tolerate your sin doesn't mean God does. In fact, the Bible teaches the opposite. Luke 11:4, Jesus said to the disciples, "Here's how you pray, 'Forgive us our sins.'"

You say, "Well what do people do with that verse?" Well, those who argue against praying for forgiveness say that that verse applies to the Old Covenant under Moses' law. They say that under the Old Covenant, under the law of Moses, under the legal dispensation of the past and maybe some future legal dispensations, some of them refer to, that prayer applied. In other words, when you ask for forgiveness you got it and the next time you asked you got it, and the next time you asked you got it. And that's how it was, they say, under the Old Covenant.

Guess what? That's never how it was under the Old Covenant...never. People were saved under the Old Covenant the same way they're saved under the New Covenant.
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/62-8

MW said:
When our fellowship with God is broken because of sin, what is the result of that broken fellowship?

As has been stated, chastening for the child of God.  And until we repent, the physical as well as spiritual effects are many, including sorrow and heaviness of heart, and loss of joy (Psalm 32 and 51).


John MacArthur!? How can you bring someone of that stature into this argument!

How can he ever compare to Matt and Vic?
Have I said Bwaaaaaaah lately?  :D
 
ALAYMAN said:
Mathew Ward said:
Maybe someone could answer these questions...

If 1 John 1:9 was written to Christians, if a Christian does not confess his sin does God not forgive his sin nor cleanse him from unrighteousness?

From God's perspective our sins are already paid for forensically, and we are eternally secure, but from our perspective, we are warned to not fall away by making sure we examining ourselves to see that we are in the faith.  It's an aspect of perserverance, and Scriptures warns the believer to be diligent to pursue holiness (without which no man will see God) and such admonitions regularly.

Here's Johnny Macs answer to your question (and he covers your erroneous dispensational view of the covenants as well)...


Well, some teachers increasingly popular, by the way today, claim that since we are already forgiven we must never ask God to forgive our sins. To do so, they tell us, is an expression of unbelief. It's an expression of doubt. And, in fact, you are calling God's Word into question. Why would you ever ask the Lord to forgive your sins when He has told you all your sins are already forgiven? And so they insist that 1 John 1:9 has nothing to do with Christians but it is an invitation to non-Christians. When I was writing the book on forgiveness, I used some illustration from the best-known contemporary proponents of this view, a man named Bob George who teaches on the radio, a popular author, he says that Christians who pray for forgiveness, quote: "Live in daily insecurity, doubting whether all their sins are forgiven." He and several others who teach similarly claim that the only way to enjoy your liberty in Christ is to forget your sin, forget about it all together and just embrace God's forgiveness as a fully accomplished reality because of the work of Christ and never again pay any attention to your sin.

Well there's enough truth, of course, in saying that all your sins are forgiven to confuse people with that. And, you know, that's a...that would be a great way to live, pay absolutely no attention to your sin as if it didn't exist. That's what historically and theologically is known as antinomianism, disregard for the law of God and your violation of it. Our sins are all forgiven, that's true. But to say therefore we should pay no attention to our sin and if we ever were to ask forgiveness we would be disavowing, doubting or denying the promise of God indicates that you may understand some of the truth but you don't understand all the truth. It is true that all our sins are forgiven but that's not all the truth. From the perspective of God's judgment throne, the sins of believers are forgiven...forgiven, even before they're committed and even if they're never confessed. Did you get that one? Before the judgment throne of God the sins of believers are forgiven even before they are committed and even if they are never confessed because God has said He has forgiven all our sins.

As a righteous judge, He has done that because He thoroughly and completely punished Jesus Christ for our sins. The price is paid in full and therefore God by justice cannot hold us guilty because the price has been paid.

But that's not all the truth in this matter and to say that God therefore pays absolutely no attention to our sin is ridiculous and to say that you are to pay no attention to your sin is also ridiculous and dangerous. To say that we can sin and completely ignore it and bear no guilt and no remorse and offer no confession and ask for no forgiveness will, believe me, bring down on such a person's head the discipline and the displeasure of God. The idea that a Christian should never pray a penitent prayer seeking forgiveness is unbiblical, it's heretical. So-called Christians who think they can sin and never need to seek their Father's forgiveness is seriously deceived, but that is an increasingly popular view.

Another advocate says, I'm quoting, "You've probably heard people pray like this, 'And, Lord, we ask You to forgive us for all our sins,' but why do forgiven Christians ask God's forgiveness? Do they not believe they are forgiven? If they believe they're forgiven then why do they ask for it repeatedly? Their prayers reveal unbelief." Same approach. A few paragraphs later he proposes what he thinks is a better way to pray. This is what he writes, 'How frequently do you hear someone pray and...Lord, I thank You that I stand before You a completely forgiven man, thank You that I am as spotless as the driven snow? How frequently do you hear people pray that?' he asks. Those words are rare but they thrill the heart of God because they demonstrate faith that a man believes God who says we are forgiven in Christ. There is no way you're going to cozy up to God if you feel He is increasingly upset with you. To feel secure you must believe that He does not hold one single sin against you."

Here is a bold statement he writes, "It is impossible for a Christian to ask God's forgiveness for a besetting sin the umpteenth time and then snuggle up to Him. He will feel like God's patience is being stretched to the limit," end quote. I don't even know what cozy up and snuggle up to God means. But what he is saying is, you're never going to enjoy the presence of God until you stop thinking about your sin. And if you really want to get close to God, pay no attention to your sin. How much sense does that make? That's a happy doctrine for an antinomian. That's a wonderful conclusion to come to if you don't want to pay any attention to your sin. Very convenient theology.

But don't be under any illusions. Just because you tolerate your sin doesn't mean God does. In fact, the Bible teaches the opposite. Luke 11:4, Jesus said to the disciples, "Here's how you pray, 'Forgive us our sins.'"

You say, "Well what do people do with that verse?" Well, those who argue against praying for forgiveness say that that verse applies to the Old Covenant under Moses' law. They say that under the Old Covenant, under the law of Moses, under the legal dispensation of the past and maybe some future legal dispensations, some of them refer to, that prayer applied. In other words, when you ask for forgiveness you got it and the next time you asked you got it, and the next time you asked you got it. And that's how it was, they say, under the Old Covenant.

Guess what? That's never how it was under the Old Covenant...never. People were saved under the Old Covenant the same way they're saved under the New Covenant.
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/62-8

MW said:
When our fellowship with God is broken because of sin, what is the result of that broken fellowship?

As has been stated, chastening for the child of God.  And until we repent, the physical as well as spiritual effects are many, including sorrow and heaviness of heart, and loss of joy (Psalm 32 and 51).

It is great that you quote Johhny Mac, however he was quoting others who might hold a similar but much different position, so I am not sure his answer really applies.

However you say that a lack of confession will result in chastening, while TB says in might, could result in chastening. 

Is it lack of confession or lack of repentance that will keep the chastening hand of God on the believer?

Sorrow for sin, humility and repentance for sin to result in holiness or Christlikeness.  You add confession of sin as though it is the magic wand.  Because those conditions for forgiveness are nowhere present in 1 John 1:9.  I would argue because of the erroneous teaching of 1 John 1:9 it has encouraged just confession without humility and repentance.

Now remember that anything not of faith is sin.  If you Have done anything that wasn't of faith and did not confess it as sin...God is coming to get you.

Now if you want to keep the old covenant you are more than welcome to try.  But only one person has ever kept the old covenant and He died to establish the new covenant.
 
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