Satan's Emergent "Church" Movement - By Bryan Denlinger

[PappaBear]

The most important question would be what the Emergents believe constitutes salvation?

Is it whatever makes one "feel saved"?

Seeing a 700 foot Jesus sitting on your bed post?

Since the Bible is only a partial foundation for belief, in their view, do Emergents believe in eternal salvation?  Or can one lose it once he no longer "feels" saved?  Is it a matter of "whatever you believe" synthesized into a conglomerated view of composite salvation?  Any doctrinal foundation at all?

 

[rsc2a]

You miss the point, I believe.
The only way we have of knowing God is thru His Word.

A statement that directly contradicts what God explicitly states through His word...

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]If you diminish the role of Scripture, then every man can truly do what is right in his own eyes...which is exactly what the Emergent movement is based on....

And if you elevate the role of Scripture, you turn Scripture itself into your god and, thus, commit idolatry. The proper thing to do is put Scripture in the place God intended instead of higher or lower than He intended.

The heavens declare the Glory of God, but He revealed Himself and instructs us as to His plan thru His Son and His Word. His Word records the life of His son...so we come back to His word...Oh Obtuse One![/quote]

"Yes. Along with [dreams, visions, feelings, experience], a community of faith, examples of the saints, revelations through the created order, and most importantly, the Holy Spirit."

Do you want verses for all of these because they are all mentioned in that Scripture you're ignoring?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]And I'm not responsible for you extremists that don't comprehend the place of Gods Word. [/quote]

If it's extreme to refuse elevating the Bible to the place of God and make it supreme authority over all things, then color me extremist. I'd rather let God be God.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]If you leave the authority of His word, you are left with your authority....which is the point of the emergents...and Satan....you are god and you decide right from wrong.[/quote]

I haven't seen where anyone said on this thread that we should "leave the authority of His word". People have stated that we should understand the proper place (and role) of that authority. I don't leave the authority of stop signs, but I recognize that they aren't inherently authoritative and also serve a particular purpose.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]And, I don't give your authority any more credence than you give mine.

So, we come back to the authority of Gods word.
You're welcome![/quote]

:

 

[PappaBear]

Isaiah  8:20  To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Izdaari]

The most important question would be what the Emergents believe constitutes salvation?

Is it whatever makes one "feel saved"?

Seeing a 700 foot Jesus sitting on your bed post?

Since the Bible is only a partial foundation for belief, in their view, do Emergents believe in eternal salvation?  Or can one lose it once he no longer "feels" saved?  Is it a matter of "whatever you believe" synthesized into a conglomerated view of composite salvation?  Any doctrinal foundation at all?

This Emergent believes:
 

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

—Episcopal Church Book of Common Prayer (1979)


As to the nature of salvation and whether it can be lost?

Salvation is not a matter of feelings, and not of works, but of accepting the gift of grace by faith in the crucified and resurrected Messiah.

I am inclined to the view that it can be lost, but only by deliberately turning against God.


And as to what other Emergents believe?

I couldn't tell you. We are very not unified. We come from a variety of different faith traditions and denominations, some of us more orthodox and conservative, others more liberal.  The only thing that unites us is the questions we ask.

 

[Izdaari]

[quote author=Biblebeliever]So Izdaari, you don't see anything wrong with being ecumenical? Or being friendly to the roman catholic church?

Let me just make something clear, I am not anti-Catholic, I am anti papacy. It is the system of roman Catholicism which I am against. There are a lot of people who get caught up in the roman catholic church because they are ignorant and they do not know what their religion is really all about or what they teach. But if any Catholic would simply study the Bible and compare with the practices of the roman catholic church, they would soon see that the catholic church does things which are contrary to the Scriptures.

They would see that the Catholic church disobeys Scripture. 

Change RCC to any other Christian tradition / denomination and it would still be true...[/quote]

Well, I don't believe in following the Pope either. But I think there are plenty of Christians in the Catholic Church.
And I don't think something is bad merely because it came from that tradition.

[quote author=Biblebeliever]Well Izdaari, I would not consider Rick Warren a conservative evangelical. Many of Rick Warren's programs which he has implemented are not Scriptural.

I consider Rick Warren more of a liberal. You see, he is all about change and ecumenism.

Rick Warren has sought to redo the way church has been done for many years. In his Purpose Driven Church Format, look at these steps that are taken to change the Biblical and traditional church into a more modern and liberal one:


• Change in music to a contemporary rock style.
.
.
.

This list is virtually all a matter of personal preference and/or an issue I could point to in all kinds of churches from the most "liberal" to the most "conservative". And personal preference is the largest chunk by far.
[/quote]

Right. Of Rick Warren's "purpose driven" format, I like about 1/3, am neutral on 1/3, and kinda negative on the remaining 1/3. But that's all methods of "doing church", and is not doctrine, and is not Scripture.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

You miss the point, I believe.
The only way we have of knowing God is thru His Word.

A statement that directly contradicts what God explicitly states through His word...

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]If you diminish the role of Scripture, then every man can truly do what is right in his own eyes...which is exactly what the Emergent movement is based on....

And if you elevate the role of Scripture, you turn Scripture itself into your god and, thus, commit idolatry. The proper thing to do is put Scripture in the place God intended instead of higher or lower than He intended.

The heavens declare the Glory of God, but He revealed Himself and instructs us as to His plan thru His Son and His Word. His Word records the life of His son...so we come back to His word...Oh Obtuse One!

"Yes. Along with [dreams, visions, feelings, experience], a community of faith, examples of the saints, revelations through the created order, and most importantly, the Holy Spirit."

Do you want verses for all of these because they are all mentioned in that Scripture you're ignoring?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]And I'm not responsible for you extremists that don't comprehend the place of Gods Word. [/quote]

If it's extreme to refuse elevating the Bible to the place of God and make it supreme authority over all things, then color me extremist. I'd rather let God be God.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]If you leave the authority of His word, you are left with your authority....which is the point of the emergents...and Satan....you are god and you decide right from wrong.[/quote]

I haven't seen where anyone said on this thread that we should "leave the authority of His word". People have stated that we should understand the proper place (and role) of that authority. I don't leave the authority of stop signs, but I recognize that they aren't inherently authoritative and also serve a particular purpose.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]And, I don't give your authority any more credence than you give mine.

So, we come back to the authority of Gods word.
You're welcome![/quote]

:
[/quote]

Dreams, visions etc were accompanied by miracles of healing, raising the dead etc. You raise the dead and Ill buy into your visions or dreams.

Speak for yourself, I don't know of anyone worshipping the Bible...aside from a few uber KJVOs.

To equate the authority of a stop sign with the infallible, inerrant, God breathed Word of the Living God is beyond ludicrous...but in line with rest of your arguments. 

 

[North]

Postmodern church. How delightfully retro.

Exactly! We call it ancient/future!  ;D

I dont wanna set the world on fire + lyrics

What exactly is the purpose of this thread?
Was the video posted to promote the sermon or dispute it?

I did not watch it because I have dial up.

However, I have not seen any points of dispute regarding what was exactly said in the video.
I have seen scorn, character assassination and rhetoric. But nothing of substance, just emotion and unseemly behavior.

Before this thread turns into a pointless free for all and loses it original context, maybe those who disagree with the video can provide their points of dispute with what is said in the video backed up by logical supporting arguments and biblical evidence.

Doing that would make this thread a lot more meaningful.

 

[Izdaari]

Postmodern church. How delightfully retro.

Exactly! We call it ancient/future!  ;D

I dont wanna set the world on fire + lyrics

What exactly is the purpose of this thread?
Was the video posted to promote the sermon or dispute it?

I did not watch it because I have dial up.

However, I have not seen any points of dispute regarding what was exactly said in the video.
I have seen scorn, character assassination and rhetoric. But nothing of substance, just emotion and unseemly behavior.

Before this thread turns into a pointless free for all and loses it original context, maybe those who disagree with the video can provide their points of dispute with what is said in the video backed up by logical supporting arguments and biblical evidence.

Doing that would make this thread a lot more meaningful.

Um, which video are we talking about? The OP's video, his second one that he posted later, or my music video, which is just an old song by the Ink Spots?

If you mean the video the OP started the thread with, it's 2 hours long. I watched a few minutes of it, all I could stand. As soon as I saw it was KJVO, I shut it down. Arguing with those guys is like listening to a broken record.

 

[Recovering IFB]

So the bible is not our final authority?
In fact, it is really no authority at all because it doesn't mean what it says.

The Emergent church really is alive and well.
bible with a little b and Man and Emergent with a Big M and E!
Glory!!

I didn't say that, what I'm saying is that I. This very forum we have had long debates over Scripture, why would that not extend to the rest of the world?
I believe that God is the final authority, He uses His Word to deliver His message!

Certainly God is THE final authority.
But since the most definitive way He has chosen to reveal Himself is thru His Word....His Word is our final authority!

A point finer than a frog's hair split four ways and sanded.

You miss the point, I believe.
The only way we have of knowing God is thru His Word.
If you diminish the role of Scripture, then every man can truly do what is right in his own eyes...which is exactly what the Emergent movement is based on....

We know what God said because it is recorded in Scripture, but the Bible itself is not to be worshipped, that is only for God to be worshipped. Like what others have said here, I see it more of a problem with the KJVO crowd

John 5:39-40

39 You study[a] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

 

[prophet]

Anyone else notice that the "associational" concerns are only doctrinal? No problem being associated with the slime balls of the GOP. No wonder the traditional marriage debate was lost when guys like Newt and Rush were the leading "spokesmen". Christians can overlook a lot of sin when the guilty party is not a Democrat.

Gop: the other white meat.

Anishinabe

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Dreams, visions etc were accompanied by miracles of healing, raising the dead etc. You raise the dead and Ill buy into your visions or dreams.[/quote]

Who did Daniel heal? Who did Joseph raise? Which of these miracles did Abraham confer?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Speak for yourself, I don't know of anyone worshipping the Bible...aside from a few uber KJVOs.[/quote]

People have explicitly stated on this very thread that the Bible is their final authority. You have stated the same. That is elevating Scripture to the place of God Himself. Frankly, I'm not surprised....I've often been around people who want to make the Bible the fourth person in the Trinity.

In fact, you have also stated that the only way we know about God is through Scripture, a statement that directly contradicts what Scripture itself states.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]To equate the authority of a stop sign with the infallible, inerrant, God breathed Word of the Living God is beyond ludicrous...but in line with rest of your arguments.  [/quote]

Many would argue that to equate the Kingdom of God with a mustard seed or a woman sweeping or a field is beyond ludicrous....

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Dreams, visions etc were accompanied by miracles of healing, raising the dead etc. You raise the dead and Ill buy into your visions or dreams.

Who did Daniel heal? Who did Joseph raise? Which of these miracles did Abraham confer?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Speak for yourself, I don't know of anyone worshipping the Bible...aside from a few uber KJVOs.[/quote]

People have explicitly stated on this very thread that the Bible is their final authority. You have stated the same. That is elevating Scripture to the place of God Himself. Frankly, I'm not surprised....I've often been around people who want to make the Bible the fourth person in the Trinity.

In fact, you have also stated that the only way we know about God is through Scripture, a statement that directly contradicts what Scripture itself states.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]To equate the authority of a stop sign with the infallible, inerrant, God breathed Word of the Living God is beyond ludicrous...but in line with rest of your arguments.  [/quote]

Many would argue that to equate the Kingdom of God with a mustard seed or a woman sweeping or a field is beyond ludicrous....
[/quote]

So you believe Scripture is still being written today?

You can learn all you want to about God from dreams visions and trips to Disney World, but if it contradicts Scripture, you're out of your mind and Scripture is correct.

That depend on the one 'doing the equating'....but I know Jesus and you ain't in His league...

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]So you believe Scripture is still being written today?[/quote]

Have I stated such a belief?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]You can learn all you want to about God from dreams visions and trips to Disney World, but if it contradicts Scripture, you're out of your mind and Scripture is correct.[/quote]

That doesn't change the fact that your stated position directly contradicts what Scripture itself teaches. Furthermore, when you later added additional requirements (e.g. "accompanied by miracles of healing, raising the dead, etc"), I showed how the teachings of many notable saints (e.g. Daniel, Joseph, Abraham) would have be ignored for failing to meet your high standards...again, in direct contrast to what Scripture itself teaches.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]That depend on the one 'doing the equating'....but I know Jesus and you ain't in His league... [/quote]

Yes...because equating a representation of authority to a different representation of authority is clearly more nuts than equating the presence of God to someone cleaning up the spilled flour. (FTR: I don't think either is nuts.)

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

That doesn't change the fact that your stated position directly contradicts what Scripture itself teaches. Furthermore, when you later added additional requirements (e.g. "accompanied by miracles of healing, raising the dead, etc"), I showed how the teachings of many notable saints (e.g. Daniel, Joseph, Abraham) would have be ignored for failing to meet your high standards...again, in direct contrast to what Scripture itself teaches.

When dealing with you, stated positions mean little, in my experience because you have comprehension or IQ problems.

I believe that since the canon of scripture was completed, that Scripture...holy, infallible, inerrant, God breathed Scripture is the final authority in our faith and practice.
Any dream, vision or other claimed illumination that adds to or contradicts Scripture...a la Joseph Smith...is bogus.

That depend on the one 'doing the equating'....but I know Jesus and you ain't in His league...

Yes...because equating a representation of authority to a different representation of authority is clearly more nuts than equating the presence of God to someone cleaning up the spilled flour. (FTR: I don't think either is nuts.)

Huh?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I plan to eat an onion sandwich tonight just before bedtime.
Dreams, visions to follow.....

 

[Castor Muscular]

I plan to eat an onion sandwich tonight just before bedtime.
Dreams, visions to follow.....

Are you dissing onion sammiches?  I happen to like them.  With mustard. 

 

[rsc2a]

That doesn't change the fact that your stated position directly contradicts what Scripture itself teaches. Furthermore, when you later added additional requirements (e.g. "accompanied by miracles of healing, raising the dead, etc"), I showed how the teachings of many notable saints (e.g. Daniel, Joseph, Abraham) would have be ignored for failing to meet your high standards...again, in direct contrast to what Scripture itself teaches.

When dealing with you, stated positions mean little, in my experience because you have comprehension or IQ problems.

The only way we have of knowing God is thru His Word. - Tarheel Baptist

Did you or did you not make the above statement? Do you or do you not stand by this statement?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]I believe that since the canon of scripture was completed, that Scripture...holy, infallible, inerrant, God breathed Scripture is the final authority in our faith and practice.[/quote]

No...God is our final authority in all things.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Any dream, vision or other claimed illumination that adds to...Scripture...[/quote]

No...Scripture is not our sole authority. There are many other ways in which God reveals Himself to us, each as authoritative as Scripture. God cannot lie and these other self-revelations of Himself are as authoritative and true as the revelation we have in Scripture.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Any dream, vision or other claimed illumination that...contradicts Scripture...a la Joseph Smith...is bogus.[/quote]

This part would be correct. God does not lie, nay...He cannot lie...in all of His revelations of Himself to His creation whether that is through Scripture, experience, natural law, visions, or any other means He may use to inform us. If any of these revelations contradict another revelation then either our understanding of one (or both) is inaccurate or the revelation isn't from God but other sources.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]

That depend on the one 'doing the equating'....but I know Jesus and you ain't in His league...

Yes...because equating a representation of authority to a different representation of authority is clearly more nuts than equating the presence of God to someone cleaning up the spilled flour. (FTR: I don't think either is nuts.)

Huh?[/quote]

?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

That doesn't change the fact that your stated position directly contradicts what Scripture itself teaches. Furthermore, when you later added additional requirements (e.g. "accompanied by miracles of healing, raising the dead, etc"), I showed how the teachings of many notable saints (e.g. Daniel, Joseph, Abraham) would have be ignored for failing to meet your high standards...again, in direct contrast to what Scripture itself teaches.

When dealing with you, stated positions mean little, in my experience because you have comprehension or IQ problems.

The only way we have of knowing God is thru His Word. - Tarheel Baptist

Did you or did you not make the above statement? Do you or do you not stand by this statement?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]I believe that since the canon of scripture was completed, that Scripture...holy, infallible, inerrant, God breathed Scripture is the final authority in our faith and practice.

No...God is our final authority in all things.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Any dream, vision or other claimed illumination that adds to...Scripture...[/quote]

No...Scripture is not our sole authority. There are many other ways in which God reveals Himself to us, each as authoritative as Scripture. God cannot lie and these other self-revelations of Himself are as authoritative and true as the revelation we have in Scripture.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Any dream, vision or other claimed illumination that...contradicts Scripture...a la Joseph Smith...is bogus.[/quote]

This part would be correct. God does not lie, nay...He cannot lie...in all of His revelations of Himself to His creation whether that is through Scripture, experience, natural law, visions, or any other means He may use to inform us. If any of these revelations contradict another revelation then either our understanding of one (or both) is inaccurate or the revelation isn't from God but other sources.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]

That depend on the one 'doing the equating'....but I know Jesus and you ain't in His league...

Yes...because equating a representation of authority to a different representation of authority is clearly more nuts than equating the presence of God to someone cleaning up the spilled flour. (FTR: I don't think either is nuts.)

Huh?[/quote]

?
[/quote]

YES I made the statement...the statement is true.
WE....now, today have Gods complete revelation...it is contained in His Word...the 66 Books of the canon of Scripture. Any future revelation that adds to or contradicts that revelation is bogus!

How has God revealed Himself to you Extra Biblically?
have you had any dreams, visions, angels appearing to you?
What did they tell you?

Huh means I have no idea what you said or meant.
As in huh....

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I plan to eat an onion sandwich tonight just before bedtime.
Dreams, visions to follow.....

Are you dissing onion sammiches?  I happen to like them.  With mustard.

Had any visions? 
If I ate such, I'd have a prophetic vision of Pepto Bismol.....

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]YES I made the statement...the statement is true.
WE....now, today have Gods complete revelation...it is contained in His Word...[/quote]

"The heavens declare his righteousness..."

"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

"For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made...."

The Scripture itself explicitly refutes the claim you keep making.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]... the 66 Books of the canon of Scripture. Any future revelation that adds to or contradicts that revelation is bogus![/quote]

I'm sorry. Where in Scripture does it say anything about a 66-book canon? Are you now adding to the revelation of Scripture? If you are going to toe the line, you need to be consistent. (FTR: I hold to a 66-book canon, but defending the canon from a hard-line sola stance is absurd.)

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]How has God revealed Himself to you Extra Biblically?
have you had any dreams, visions, angels appearing to you?
What did they tell you?[/quote]

Sure...He reveals Himself to me all the time. He reveals Himself in the sacraments. He reveals Himself when I enjoy a good meal. He reveals Himself when I make love to my wife. He reveals Himself when I hug my children. He reveals Himself when I attend a wedding. He also reveals Himself when I attend a funeral. He reveals Himself when I admire a sunrise. Do you want me to keep going?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Huh means I have no idea what you said or meant.
As in huh....[/quote]

I meant that your critique of my analogy (Scripture / stop sign) consisted of "La la la la. I don't like that. I can't hear you" instead of actually making a point that could be considered a rebuttal.