Sad to read

[Just me]

Sounds to me like he said...Here is what I believe it takes to get to heaven.  I put it out there every week on the program.  If someone does not accept it or even flatly denies it then he will let God judge their heart.  He is not going to.

I can accept that.

Well you are certainly free to accept that in your choice of pastor... I will take Paul who said he wasn't ashamed of the Gospel for it is is the power of God unto salvation....who said any other Gospel is to be anathema.  I will take a Peter who said that the Jesus they crucified is the Savior.  I will take Jesus who said, I am the way...no one comes to the Father except by me. It is a worthless, man pleasing "pastor" who will not say that Jesus is the only way to salvation for all people...period!  He should not be in the pulpit and his message is without the power of the Holy Spirit!

Silly T-bone, you might want to brush up on your reading skills a little.

Appreciate that...can always improve in that area and many others.  Might I encourage you to improve on your discernment of professed pastors and what they actually teach?  That way you wont be seen as possibly defending the indefensible.  What Joel is not willing to say in order to be accepted by all is that it is not a matter of "his judgment" to state that any other path to salvation leads to destruction...God's Word has already stated this truth, to speak this truth is what the pastor is supposed to do.

Thank you, T-bone, my discernment can always be improved upon for sure. 

I have no problem with how he is approaching the issue here.  I have spent spent more than 35 years with the "pastors" who judged every other pastor and everyone for that matter and leave not the judgement to God.  I personally weary of them and their results. 

From what I have read and heard, Mr. Osteen does say things that make me cringe from time to time but I cringed regularally from the IFB preachers I sat under for all those years with their consistant harsh and judgemental preaching and teachings.

We will probably have to agree to disagree on it.

 

[christundivided]

Actually, I was just thinking about it...


You know what all this talk about being saved because of what you know sounds like? It sounds exactly like Gnosticism.

My sheep hear my voice and they know what? Are you saying Christ is a stranger to His own?

Joh 10:5  And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Surely you're not trying to say that people are saved without knowing/understanding the voice of their own Master?

I'm saying that we clearly have different ideas on what it means to hear (and understand) the voice of God.

By all means explain how they are different. I don't expect to really do this, all you have is a conceptual construct that you never intend to practically assemble into a working belief. You're nothing more than a questioner that never provides any answers "himself".

 

[christundivided]

Waiting on the final two...

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Christ saves through faith by means of the gospel, no matter how many times you deny it, you are still wrong.

[quote author=christundivided]Surely you're not trying to say that people are saved without knowing/understanding the voice of their own Master?[/quote]

So...do you guys believe there are certain things you have to believe about Jesus in order to be saved?
[/quote]

Yes, I do believe a man must believe certain things about Jesus in order to get saved. Don't you? Even though I do believe the key is to know... you really don't know God. That, in and of itself, is still something one has to believe. Its similar to the "0" argument. Surely you believe "0" is necessary?

 

[T-Bone]

Sounds to me like he said...Here is what I believe it takes to get to heaven.  I put it out there every week on the program.  If someone does not accept it or even flatly denies it then he will let God judge their heart.  He is not going to.

I can accept that.

Well you are certainly free to accept that in your choice of pastor... I will take Paul who said he wasn't ashamed of the Gospel for it is is the power of God unto salvation....who said any other Gospel is to be anathema.  I will take a Peter who said that the Jesus they crucified is the Savior.  I will take Jesus who said, I am the way...no one comes to the Father except by me. It is a worthless, man pleasing "pastor" who will not say that Jesus is the only way to salvation for all people...period!  He should not be in the pulpit and his message is without the power of the Holy Spirit!

Silly T-bone, you might want to brush up on your reading skills a little.

Appreciate that...can always improve in that area and many others.  Might I encourage you to improve on your discernment of professed pastors and what they actually teach?  That way you wont be seen as possibly defending the indefensible.  What Joel is not willing to say in order to be accepted by all is that it is not a matter of "his judgment" to state that any other path to salvation leads to destruction...God's Word has already stated this truth, to speak this truth is what the pastor is supposed to do.

Thank you, T-bone, my discernment can always be improved upon for sure. 

I have no problem with how he is approaching the issue here.  I have spent spent more than 35 years with the "pastors" who judged every other pastor and everyone for that matter and leave not the judgement to God.  I personally weary of them and their results. 

From what I have read and heard, Mr. Osteen does say things that make me cringe from time to time but I cringed regularally from the IFB preachers I sat under for all those years with their consistant harsh and judgemental preaching and teachings.

We will probably have to agree to disagree on it.

Understood...that many years setting under very harsh preachers who think everyone but themselves are going to hell can have a huge negative effect on others.  I am not IFB, never have been, but I do encourage the people to whom I minister to be discerning from a biblical perspective.  I also ask them to be biblically discerning when they listen to me, as the Word is the final authority.  Another thing I encourage them to do is listen or read from a first person perspective...don't take what others say about someone, read or listen for yourself, then biblically discern if they be of the truth or not.  I do believe this is the biblical way to approach it, because there are false teachers and preachers out there.  Bless you as you walk in Him!

 

[Just me]

Thanks, T-bone, for the encouriging words and understanding even though not experiencing it.  Also, I am glad to hear you are not a preacher of that nature.  I just wish the IFB preachers I have been exposed to over the years could learn to have that attitude.  In more areas then just this one for sure.

All our children were raised up in the movement and all but one went to their colleges.  Praise the Lord they all have seen the issues and are moving away from the movement.  It is a process for sure. The great thing is the Lord has blessed and allowed us not to loose our children to the movement and they all have a love for the Lord and serving him despite the efforts of those "men" we were under.

May the Lord bless you and your ministry for Him

 

[rsc2a]

Waiting on the final two...

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Christ saves through faith by means of the gospel, no matter how many times you deny it, you are still wrong.

So...do you guys believe there are certain things you have to believe about Jesus in order to be saved?

[/quote]

Alayman....waiting on you....

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Waiting on the final two...

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Christ saves through faith by means of the gospel, no matter how many times you deny it, you are still wrong.

So...do you guys believe there are certain things you have to believe about Jesus in order to be saved?

Alayman....waiting on you....
[/quote]

I believe....in belief...hallelujah!

 

[ALAYMAN]

So...do you guys believe there are certain things you have to believe about Jesus in order to be saved?

Yes.


But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

[rsc2a]

I will trust in what Jesus said..."whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but has everlasting life."  Pretty much settles it for me.

A man has an opportunity to be saved when...The sinner, by faith, believes unto salvation. 

[quote author=christundivided]Yes, I do believe a man must believe certain things about Jesus in order to get saved....[/quote]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Yes.[/quote][/quote]

So how do you guys advise me to tell my wife that her severely-retarded sister is Hellbound? How should I tell the friends that lost a toddler that their child is now burning in Hell? What about the neighbor who lost an infant grandson? Should I explain that he is now sentenced to a life of everlasting torment?

 

[T-Bone]

I will trust in what Jesus said..."whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but has everlasting life."  Pretty much settles it for me.

A man has an opportunity to be saved when...The sinner, by faith, believes unto salvation. 

[quote author=christundivided]Yes, I do believe a man must believe certain things about Jesus in order to get saved....

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Yes.[/quote][/quote]

So how do you guys advise me to tell my wife that her severely-retarded sister is Hellbound? How should I tell the friends that lost a toddler that their child is now burning in Hell? What about the neighbor who lost an infant grandson? Should I explain that he is now sentenced to a life of everlasting torment?
[/quote]

I would advise you to tell her, your friends and your neighbor that in these cases they can trust the goodness of God to do what is right and just.  Thanks for taking it down a road that was not even in the discussion...you seem to enjoy being intentionally obtuse.

 

[christundivided]

So how do you guys advise me to tell my wife that her severely-retarded sister is Hellbound? How should I tell the friends that lost a toddler that their child is now burning in Hell? What about the neighbor who lost an infant grandson? Should I explain that he is now sentenced to a life of everlasting torment?

Is your wife's sister really severely retarded? or are you just trying to make the argument appear to be personal?

May I ask how severely retarded is she? Can she hear? Can she respond to questions?

Toddler are specifically dealt with in the Scriptures. If you don't know where, then learn where. Don't learn "on the fly" by arguing with us.

 

[ALAYMAN]

So how do you guys advise me to tell my wife that her severely-retarded sister is Hellbound? How should I tell the friends that lost a toddler that their child is now burning in Hell? What about the neighbor who lost an infant grandson? Should I explain that he is now sentenced to a life of everlasting torment?

Tbone's answer was apt, trust the goodness of God.  That said, there are certain elements of salvation that would fall under the "secret things" of God, and this would be one.  Spurgeon, a hard calvinist, believed that babies and folk like you cite are in heaven by God's sovereign electing grace, but there are plenty on the other side of that reformed aisle who believe "where Scripture is silent we remain silent".

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I will trust in what Jesus said..."whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but has everlasting life."  Pretty much settles it for me.

A man has an opportunity to be saved when...The sinner, by faith, believes unto salvation. 

[quote author=christundivided]Yes, I do believe a man must believe certain things about Jesus in order to get saved....

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Yes.[/quote][/quote]

So how do you guys advise me to tell my wife that her severely-retarded sister is Hellbound? How should I tell the friends that lost a toddler that their child is now burning in Hell? What about the neighbor who lost an infant grandson? Should I explain that he is now sentenced to a life of everlasting torment?
[/quote]

I think you're drawing phantom conclusions and putting words into the 'guys' collective mouths that can't be gleaned from the discussion on this thread. Where DO you get the conclusions you sometimes reach?

 

[Timothy]

I will trust in what Jesus said..."whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but has everlasting life."  Pretty much settles it for me.

A man has an opportunity to be saved when...The sinner, by faith, believes unto salvation. 

[quote author=christundivided]Yes, I do believe a man must believe certain things about Jesus in order to get saved....

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Yes.[/quote][/quote]

So how do you guys advise me to tell my wife that her severely-retarded sister is Hellbound? How should I tell the friends that lost a toddler that their child is now burning in Hell? What about the neighbor who lost an infant grandson? Should I explain that he is now sentenced to a life of everlasting torment?
[/quote]

Jesus Saves

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=T-Bone]I would advise you to tell her, your friends and your neighbor that in these cases they can trust the goodness of God to do what is right and just.[/quote]

Absolutely. And based on what you have stated, right and just is Hell. Or are you making possible exceptions?

[quote author=T-Bone]Thanks for taking it down a road that was not even in the discussion...you seem to enjoy being intentionally obtuse.[/quote]

It is the same discussion. Are you going to be consistent?



[quote author=christundivided]Is your wife's sister really severely retarded? or are you just trying to make the argument appear to be personal?

May I ask how severely retarded is she? Can she hear? Can she respond to questions?[/quote]

She's six and she speaks in grunts. (She's also one of the happiest people I've ever met.)

[quote author=christundivided]Toddler are specifically dealt with in the Scriptures. If you don't know where, then learn where. Don't learn "on the fly" by arguing with us.[/quote]

No really...I'd like to know where.

And are you also making an exception to the must believe rule you say is clearly spelled out in Scripture?



[quote author=ALAYMAN]Tbone's answer was apt, trust the goodness of God.  That said, there are certain elements of salvation that would fall under the "secret things" of God, and this would be one.  Spurgeon, a hard calvinist, believed that babies and folk like you cite are in heaven by God's sovereign electing grace, but there are plenty on the other side of that reformed aisle who believe "where Scripture is silent we remain silent".[/quote]

I'm not asking what Spurgeon believed. You stated that one must believe to be saved. Are you now also making exceptions?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]I think you're drawing phantom conclusions and putting words into the 'guys' collective mouths that can't be gleaned from the discussion on this thread. Where DO you get the conclusions you sometimes reach?[/quote]

All four of them stated that belief in Jesus was a necessary requirement for salvation. They cited Scripture. Some said anyone who believes otherwise is a heretic. They cited more Scripture. They said that anyone who cited Scripture that didn't mesh with their notions were misinterpreting what was being read.

They were quite adamant in their stance.  I'm not putting any words in their mouths; instead, I am asking whether they consistently hold to that view in all circumstances or if they pick and choose when that view is correct or not.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I'm not asking what Spurgeon believed. You stated that one must believe to be saved. Are you now also making exceptions?

Why so touchy?  You really do come across as a smarmy condescending fart when you say things like "I'm not asking what....".  I was giving you the cliffs notes version of what giants of the <reformed> faith have taught regarding God's sovereign choice in election.  They have <both> founded their beliefs on Scriptural inference.  Nothing either side has used to defend their position is absolutely convincing on the matter of what happens to people in the category you cited.  All would agree that they have the sin nature, and as such deserve death, but folk like Spurgeon would say babies and retarded people are elect.  There is flimsy evidence to support either position, so to remain silent seems the most reasonable path.  Personally, when infants die, I refer to the passage where David's baby dies and David says he will go to be with him (in heaven).  If I am wrong about that I am sure God will correct me in due time.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Why so touchy?  You really do come across as a smarmy condescending fart when you say things like "I'm not asking what....".  I was giving you the cliffs notes version of what giants of the <reformed> faith have taught regarding God's sovereign choice in election.  They have <both> founded their beliefs on Scriptural inference.  Nothing either side has used to defend their position is absolutely convincing on the matter of what happens to people in the category you cited.  All would agree that they have the sin nature, and as such deserve death, but folk like Spurgeon would say babies and retarded people are elect.  There is flimsy evidence to support either position, so to remain silent seems the most reasonable path.  Personally, when infants die, I refer to the passage where David's baby dies and David says he will go to be with him (in heaven).  If I am wrong about that I am sure God will correct me in due time.[/quote]

1 - According to you (et al), Scripture is not silent. One must believe in order to be saved.
2 - And yet in those spots where Scripture is not silent, say for instance those cases where people have never heard of Christ, you ignore what said (not-so-silent) Scripture teaches...

 

[T-Bone]

[quote author=T-Bone]I would advise you to tell her, your friends and your neighbor that in these cases they can trust the goodness of God to do what is right and just.

Absolutely. And based on what you have stated, right and just is Hell. Or are you making possible exceptions?

[quote author=T-Bone]Thanks for taking it down a road that was not even in the discussion...you seem to enjoy being intentionally obtuse.[/quote]

It is the same discussion. Are you going to be consistent?



[.[/quote]

[/quote]

I merely quoted Scripture ....you have a problem with that, then that's your problem.  You brought into the discussion those who are incapable of full belief...God is good and just so I trust Him with them.  This was not the question...if you are capable then you must believe.  Stop trying to make it more difficult and simply cause stupid arguments.  I will not play your meaningless word games...last response to you on this.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=T-Bone]I merely quoted Scripture ....you have a problem with that, then that's your problem.  You brought into the discussion those who are incapable of full belief...God is good and just so I trust Him with them.  This was not the question...if you are capable then you must believe.  Stop trying to make it more difficult and simply cause stupid arguments.  I will not play your meaningless word games...last response to you on this.[/quote]

The original question was about folks in India. I merely pointed out that God might save even them. You challenged me on it. So, tell me, how can one be capable of believing in a Jesus they have never even heard of?