Sad to read

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=Boomer]This is well stated, T-Bone. Osteen is afraid to speak the truth of the Bible....that those in India who are sincere are still condemned in their sins because they have not received Jesus Christ. Sincerity does not save, Christ saves!

Then how do you know they aren't among the elect? Jesus saves, not our knowledge of Jesus.
[/quote]

Christ saves through faith by means of the gospel, no matter how many times you deny it, you are still wrong.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

I Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[T-Bone]

[quote author=Boomer]This is well stated, T-Bone. Osteen is afraid to speak the truth of the Bible....that those in India who are sincere are still condemned in their sins because they have not received Jesus Christ. Sincerity does not save, Christ saves!

Then how do you know they aren't among the elect? Jesus saves, not our knowledge of Jesus.
[/quote]

Of course Jesus saves...but not apart from Himself.  He doesn't save those who trust in Buddha, Krishna, a tree or self.  He saves those who respond to Him in faith.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Boomer]This is well stated, T-Bone. Osteen is afraid to speak the truth of the Bible....that those in India who are sincere are still condemned in their sins because they have not received Jesus Christ. Sincerity does not save, Christ saves!

Then how do you know they aren't among the elect? Jesus saves, not our knowledge of Jesus.

Christ saves through faith by means of the gospel, no matter how many times you deny it, you are still wrong.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

I Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.[/quote]

And Jesus says many will say, "When did we feed you or clothe you or care for you?" And Paul says Gentiles, who do not even have the law, could be excused when they show that they obeyed the law, since it was written on their hearts.

That's the major problem with your position. Jesus (and Paul) explicitly state that there are those who will enter into God's presence who know nothing of Jesus.

 

[ALAYMAN]

And Jesus says many will say, "When did we feed you or clothe you or care for you?" And Paul says Gentiles, who do not even have the law, could be excused when they show that they obeyed the law, since it was written on their hearts.

That's the major problem with your position. Jesus (and Paul) explicitly state that there are those who will enter into God's presence who know nothing of Jesus.

Ridiculous, nothing more than eisigesis.  When did ANYBODY ever get justified by ANY form of the law?  And when did ANY person perfectly obey ANY version of "the law" in order to be declared righteous?

That aside, you jumped the tracks, as you are want to do.  The verses I cited, and many more, plainly state that it is by the word of God that people are regenerated.

 

[Frag]

[quote author=Boomer]This is well stated, T-Bone. Osteen is afraid to speak the truth of the Bible....that those in India who are sincere are still condemned in their sins because they have not received Jesus Christ. Sincerity does not save, Christ saves!

Then how do you know they aren't among the elect? Jesus saves, not our knowledge of Jesus.
[/quote]


Warning:  Above is a perfect example of "another gospel" (which is not another) warned about in Galatians.  Calvi false doctrine run amuck....

Sad....

 

[rsc2a]

And Jesus says many will say, "When did we feed you or clothe you or care for you?" And Paul says Gentiles, who do not even have the law, could be excused when they show that they obeyed the law, since it was written on their hearts.

That's the major problem with your position. Jesus (and Paul) explicitly state that there are those who will enter into God's presence who know nothing of Jesus.

Ridiculous, nothing more than eisigesis.  When did ANYBODY ever get justified by ANY form of the law?

Never. That's what I keep telling you. We aren't justified by the Law. We aren't justified by baptism. We aren't justified by our knowledge about Jesus. We are justified by Jesus.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]And when did ANY person perfectly obey ANY version of "the law" in order to be declared righteous?[/quote]

When has anyone perfectly obeyed any version of the Law? Jesus did. (You know that, right?) And, because He did, it is counted towards me. I don't have to keep the Law perfectly.

What you meant to ask was, "When did God only hold people accountable for what they did with the knowledge that they did possess?" And the answer to that is Romans 2:15-16. You know the part where Paul said that:

They (Gentiles) show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]That aside, you jumped the tracks, as you are want to do.  The verses I cited, and many more, plainly state that it is by the word of God that people are regenerated.[/quote]

Along with by washing in certain rivers, touching garments, repentance, confession, Communion, good works, baptism, prayer...

There are a variety of methods that God uses to bring about regeneration. But, notice who the causative agent is in that sentence.

 

[christundivided]

That's the major problem with your position. Jesus (and Paul) explicitly state that there are those who will enter into God's presence who know nothing of Jesus.

What do you mean by entering God's presence? God's presence will be at the Great White Throne judgement in which the vasts multitude will be driven from HIS PRESENCE.

You love these semantics games don't you....???

 

[rsc2a]

That's the major problem with your position. Jesus (and Paul) explicitly state that there are those who will enter into God's presence who know nothing of Jesus.

What do you mean by entering God's presence? God's presence will be at the Great White Throne judgement in which the vasts multitude will be driven from HIS PRESENCE.

Vast multitudes who will say, "But we knew you." And Jesus will reply, "I have no idea who you are."

Then there will be vast multitudes who will say, "We never knew you. We just did what we knew to be right." And Jesus will reply, "Yes...by doing that, you showed that you knew Me."


[quote author=christundivided]You love these semantics games don't you....???[/quote]

These aren't semantic games. These are issues that Jesus (and Paul) addressed directly...precisely because of the kinds of things that are being said by some.

 

[rsc2a]

Actually, I was just thinking about it...


You know what all this talk about being saved because of what you know sounds like? It sounds exactly like Gnosticism.

 

[christundivided]

Vast multitudes who will say, "But we knew you." And Jesus will reply, "I have no idea who you are."

Then there will be vast multitudes who will say, "We never knew you. We just did what we knew to be right." And Jesus will reply, "Yes...by doing that, you showed that you knew Me."

Aren't you taking great liberties with what you believe Christ spoke? I don't seem to remember these two types of people being mentioned in the same conversation. Where do you find the latter?

 

[christundivided]

Actually, I was just thinking about it...


You know what all this talk about being saved because of what you know sounds like? It sounds exactly like Gnosticism.

My sheep hear my voice and they know what? Are you saying Christ is a stranger to His own?

Joh 10:5  And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Surely you're not trying to say that people are saved without knowing/understanding the voice of their own Master?

 

[rsc2a]

Vast multitudes who will say, "But we knew you." And Jesus will reply, "I have no idea who you are."

Then there will be vast multitudes who will say, "We never knew you. We just did what we knew to be right." And Jesus will reply, "Yes...by doing that, you showed that you knew Me."

Aren't you taking great liberties with what you believe Christ spoke? I don't seem to remember these two types of people being mentioned in the same conversation. Where do you find the latter?

That's pretty much what Jesus said. (See Olivet discourse and Matt 25.) And they are definitely mentioned in the same context, even if not in the same passage.

 

[rsc2a]

Actually, I was just thinking about it...


You know what all this talk about being saved because of what you know sounds like? It sounds exactly like Gnosticism.

My sheep hear my voice and they know what? Are you saying Christ is a stranger to His own?

Joh 10:5  And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Surely you're not trying to say that people are saved without knowing/understanding the voice of their own Master?

I'm saying that we clearly have different ideas on what it means to hear (and understand) the voice of God.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Christ saves through faith by means of the gospel, no matter how many times you deny it, you are still wrong.[/quote]

[quote author=T-bone]Of course Jesus saves...but not apart from Himself.  He doesn't save those who trust in Buddha, Krishna, a tree or self.  He saves those who respond to Him in faith.[/quote]

[quote author=Frag]Warning:  Above is a perfect example of "another gospel" (which is not another) warned about in Galatians.  Calvi false doctrine run amuck....[/quote]

[quote author=christundivided]Surely you're not trying to say that people are saved without knowing/understanding the voice of their own Master?[/quote]

So...do you guys believe there are certain things you have to believe about Jesus in order to be saved?

 

[T-Bone]

I will trust in what Jesus said..."whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but has everlasting life."  Pretty much settles it for me.

 

[Frag]

A man has an opportunity to be saved when:

The Holy Spirit is convicting him of sin.
The Father is wooing him to himself.
The Son's substitutionary death, His burial and resurrection is understood.
The sinner, by faith, believes unto salvation. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

Never. That's what I keep telling you. We aren't justified by the Law. We aren't justified by baptism. We aren't justified by our knowledge about Jesus. We are justified by Jesus.

You just did cite verses about the law, linking them to salvation for gentiles who didn't have the law.  You alluded to Romans 2 and somehow claimed that it supported salvation apart from hearing the gospel.  I've never stated anything other than the fact that salvation is in Christ alone, by faith alone, so desist with the lies and sophistry.

When has anyone perfectly obeyed any version of the Law? Jesus did. (You know that, right?)

Seriously?  No way!  Jesus kept the law perfectly?  Wow, I never knew that til you told me.  Just, wow, I mean, wow.  How cool is that?  Your vast Biblical knowledge is without rival. 

And, because He did, it is counted towards me. I don't have to keep the Law perfectly.

You just cited Romans 2 as proof that a gentile kept the law (their understanding of it per their conscience) in order to be saved. 

What you meant to ask was, "When did God only hold people accountable for what they did with the knowledge that they did possess?" And the answer to that is Romans 2:15-16. You know the part where Paul said that:

No, I asked exactly what I wanted to ask, but you're pretty good at putting words in other people's mouths, erecting strawmen that you like to knock down, and generally chasing rabbits rather than answering simple questions.  Natural law (which Paul referenced in Romans 1) is in view in Romans 2, and he is merely stating that the gentiles have enough of the imprint of God on their conscience to condemn them, and not enough special revelation to actually save them.


[quote author=rsc2a]
Along with by washing in certain rivers, touching garments, repentance, confession, Communion, good works, baptism, prayer...[/quote]

lol, the passage you reference about "touching garments" immediately following says "thy faith hath made thee whole", but according to you Jesus got it wrong because he didn't say "I have healed thee, and I have made thee whole".

There are a variety of methods that God uses to bring about regeneration. But, notice who the causative agent is in that sentence.

You can wrest Scriptures to your own destruction til the cows come home, but the word of God, the very thing that is supposed to be your basis for belief and practice, explicitly teaches in numerous places that the word of God is the instrument that God uses to bring people to faith in Christ.  Your perpetual false claim that I am denying God is the "causative agent" is sophistry and obfuscation.  I have NEVER denied that God is the sole agent for bringing about salvation in the soul of man, but what I have said countless times (and you continue to patently ignore without cause) is that God uses "means" in this process, and the instrumental cause he uses to save a soul is explicitly claimed to be the word of God (specifically the gospel).

 

[rsc2a]

Never. That's what I keep telling you. We aren't justified by the Law. We aren't justified by baptism. We aren't justified by our knowledge about Jesus. We are justified by Jesus.

You just did cite verses about the law, linking them to salvation for gentiles who didn't have the law.  You alluded to Romans 2 and somehow claimed that it supported salvation apart from hearing the gospel.  I've never stated anything other than the fact that salvation is in Christ alone, by faith alone, so desist with the lies and sophistry.

I never claimed the law saved them. (Do I need to repeat my mantra?) But the fact that they were obedient to it showed that they were already regenerate.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

And, because He did, it is counted towards me. I don't have to keep the Law perfectly.

You just cited Romans 2 as proof that a gentile kept the law (their understanding of it per their conscience) in order to be saved.  [/quote]

When have I ever claimed that obeying the law saves anyone? Obedience to the law doesn't result in our salvation; it is proof of our salvation.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

What you meant to ask was, "When did God only hold people accountable for what they did with the knowledge that they did possess?" And the answer to that is Romans 2:15-16. You know the part where Paul said that:

No, I asked exactly what I wanted to ask, but you're pretty good at putting words in other people's mouths, erecting strawmen that you like to knock down, and generally chasing rabbits rather than answering simple questions.[/quote]

So you were referencing the scripture I posted then asking a question completely unrelated. Odd way of communicating...

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Natural law (which Paul referenced in Romans 1) is in view in Romans 2, and he is merely stating that the gentiles have enough of the imprint of God on their conscience to condemn them, and not enough special revelation to actually save them.[/quote]

You aren't arguing with me at this point, but the text. Remember this part?

...or even excuse them...

[quote author=ALAYMAN][quote author=rsc2a]
Along with by washing in certain rivers, touching garments, repentance, confession, Communion, good works, baptism, prayer...[/quote]

lol, the passage you reference about "touching garments" immediately following says "thy faith hath made thee whole", but according to you Jesus got it wrong because he didn't say "I have healed thee, and I have made thee whole".[/quote]

That passage also says where the power came from. Care to give it a guess?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

There are a variety of methods that God uses to bring about regeneration. But, notice who the causative agent is in that sentence.

You can wrest Scriptures to your own destruction til the cows come home, but the word of God, the very thing that is supposed to be your basis for belief and practice, explicitly teaches in numerous places that the word of God is the instrument that God uses to bring people to faith in Christ.[/quote]

It also explicitly teaches that baptism, repentance, confession, good works, and a host of other methods are the instruments that God uses to bring about salvation. Want me to provide the verses? (The difference is that I am not being selective in which verse I choose to accept as meaning what they actually say and which ones we should dance around based on my preconceptions.)

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Your perpetual false claim that I am denying God is the "causative agent" is sophistry and obfuscation.  I have NEVER denied that God is the sole agent for bringing about salvation in the soul of man, but what I have said countless times (and you continue to patently ignore without cause) is that God uses "means" in this process, and the instrumental cause he uses to save a soul is explicitly claimed to be the word of God...[/quote]

You continually lay it at the foot of men. They have to believe and all that jazz. And, again, the instrumental cause is varied. As I stated earlier, I can provide the verses if you'd like.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]...(specifically the gospel).[/quote]

Now this statement just makes no sense at all. God uses good news as an instrumental cause?

 

[rsc2a]

Waiting on the final two...

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Christ saves through faith by means of the gospel, no matter how many times you deny it, you are still wrong.

[quote author=christundivided]Surely you're not trying to say that people are saved without knowing/understanding the voice of their own Master?[/quote]

So...do you guys believe there are certain things you have to believe about Jesus in order to be saved?
[/quote]

 

[Frag]

Waiting on the final two...

Oh..............hurry!!!!  The suspense is killing me!!!  Hardly slept last night!


I can't wait to hear what a heretic thinks of my Biblical view of salvation......