If a "Jack Hyles" took the pastorate of FBCH today......

[TidesofTruth]

Timotheus said  "I think FBC would look a lot like Thomas Road right now and HAC would be similar to Liberty."

Yah, 13,000 students instead of 400.

$1 billion in net assets and cash and investments instead of almost out of business.

http://www.newsadvance.com/news/local/liberty-university-s-credit-rating-rises-after-moody-s-report/article_e5293aa6-1b60-11e3-9c9e-0019bb30f31a.html

I was going for their doctrinal positions and how they get along with others rather than how many students or how rich they are.   

Without the perversion and controversy, I think HAC could have had 3k to 5k students and over 100M in assets (with the money that Anderson, Decoster and others gave over the years)

You do realize that When Liberty nearly went Bankrupt JF solicited funds from cultist Sung Yun Moon that saved the college. I don't know how much integrity is left there.  Not that HAC has any either.  I just don't think that this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-dc9nHwC2w
Is all that great a testimony either.

Numbers are not necessarily a proof of God's favor on a place but that hold true whether it is numbers of people or numbers of dollars in the bank.  Its all still numbers.

I find it ironic that on this FFF Liberty University has only 42 posts on 24 topics...compared to Hyles-Anderson College's 17,452 posts on 623 topics. Percentage wise, the negative posts are much higher on our alma mater posts.  We have also had many, many more scandals.  Yet, the point is made that Liberty University doesn't have a great testimony???  Hmmmmm.......  There ARE faithful, dedicated Christians there who have a great desire to serve the Lord.  And their graduates are keeping good churches afloat financially due to the salaries their graduates make from their degrees.  Just sayin.....

What you find ironic?  Really?  This is mainly a Hyles-Anderson and all the schools who came from her forum.  What you find ironic is quite odd.  What I find ironic is that you think that the FFF is the bastion of all forums devoted to Christian universities and wish to compare the comments here against itself and think that is all that is being stated against Liberty.  Just by shear numbers that is one of the most ridiculous statements made since "The nation will fall if FBCH falls"  Liberty is 50 times larger than Hyles Anderson at minimum and being so large they have MASSIVE complaints by everyone under the sun.  Leave here and let google be your friend.  Every scandal in the world is listed from rape to financial conspiracy (like when JF ripped off small Christians investors of 73 million the likes that would make TK blush) to doctrinal error.  Go ahead enlighten yourself. 

I have no doubt that there are good Christians who have attended Liberty.  But it is an all together different course.  Someday they will be Baylor.  Just par for the course.  I don't think that is what anyone intended for Hyles Anderson and the comparison of how great they are and as if Hyles Anderson ever wanted to be that is just ridiculous. 

 

[cast.sheep]

I do NOT think "that the FFF is the bastion of all forums devoted to Christian universities and wish to compare the comments here against itself and think that is all that is being stated against Liberty."  I was simply making the point that it is so easy for "us" (yes, I am one of "us") to judge another college/university because they are not like "us".  Their "testimony" is not acceptable or good to most on the Hyles-Anderson forum, which is completely understandable seeings this IS the Hyles-Anderson forum. I just find it ironic that we Hylanders can be so quick to point out what we consider to be a bad testimony when our own is nothing to brag about.  That's all I was saying. 

One thing I have learned is that Christians are everywhere. I realize that Liberty has moved with the times and has attempted to stay relevant in this world, which is a philosophical difference between us. I guess I could be considered a "liberal" now because I refuse to judge the testimony of the entire university based on a video.  My own son-in-law is a graduate of Liberty and it was good for him and enhanced his walk with Christ.  Christianity can be taken with us no matter where we attend college.  In fact, in my opinion, that is a philosophical difference I have with my own alma mater...I believe Christianity comes from within and cannot be forced on anyone. 

I also believe in Ephesians 4:32 and Matthew 7:1-3.  Even on this forum.

 

[TidesofTruth]

I do NOT think "that the FFF is the bastion of all forums devoted to Christian universities and wish to compare the comments here against itself and think that is all that is being stated against Liberty."  I was simply making the point that it is so easy for "us" (yes, I am one of "us") to judge another college/university because they are not like "us".  Their "testimony" is not acceptable or good to most on the Hyles-Anderson forum, which is completely understandable seeings this IS the Hyles-Anderson forum. I just find it ironic that we Hylanders can be so quick to point out what we consider to be a bad testimony when our own is nothing to brag about.  That's all I was saying/

So easy to dismiss the word of a "Hylander" or a Fundamentalist Baptist or anyone who dares to knock your pet by poisoning the well through your logical fallacy.  I stressed not comparing Hyles Anderson to Liberty because they are 2 completely different institutions.  You still want to compare their sinfulness.  You want to compare numbers of critics.  Forget that.  Lets compare to the Word of God.

One thing I have learned is that Christians are everywhere. I realize that Liberty has moved with the times and has attempted to stay relevant in this world, which is a philosophical difference between us. I guess I could be considered a "liberal" now because I refuse to judge the testimony of the entire university based on a video.  My own son-in-law is a graduate of Liberty and it was good for him and enhanced his walk with Christ.  Christianity can be taken with us no matter where we attend college.  In fact, in my opinion, that is a philosophical difference I have with my own alma mater...I believe Christianity comes from within and cannot be forced on anyone. 

I also believe in Ephesians 4:32 and Matthew 7:1-3.  Even on this forum.

I suppose there are Christians at every University in the Country.  That has nothing to do with what we are talking about.  You are so Pious as you refuse to judge "based on 1 video"  Well yea if it was a single video I guess you would be right However I was just using that one as an example and not the one where the obviously lesbian choir director was directing a hip hop spoof of a youtube video for Christmas.

Yeah keeping up with the times . . .  However that is not what we as believers are called to do.  This has nothing to do with comparing to Hyles Anderson because I will and have tried to hold them accountable as well.  And yet when we compare any institution against say Romans 1 then we must be honest regarding all of it.  It is the Romans Road of a Reprobate and now we see this last April out of Liberty so . . .

LYNCHBURG, Va. – Liberty University, considered the world’s largest Christian university, has hired an open homosexual advocate to choreograph its upcoming Broadway-style presentation of Mary Poppins.

The university recently published an article regarding the production, which it celebrates as being the school’s “largest to date.” The article notes that Alluvion Stage Company, an arm of the university’s Department of Theater Arts, “has hired a guest music director, a flight director, and a Broadway choreographer” to assist with the presentation.
KEEP READING: Liberty University Hires Open Homosexual Advocate to Choreograph ‘Mary Poppins’ Production [Christian News]
(H/t: Scott Hutcheson)  http://www.christianpost.com/news/liberty-university-shrugs-off-concerns-over-openly-gay-choreographer-assisting-in-campus-production-117576/

Please Enjoy this sodomites work at the University Behind the Scenes of Alluvion Stage Company's Mary Poppins on Vimeo

I rather have 50 students who wanted to be on fire for God than this.

And No I am not and have not stated that HAC is unstained.  It has much to purge.  If we leave the God of our Fathers all will follow the reprobate path of Romans 1

But by all means we must stay relevant and no one, especially never a fundamentalist because fundamentalists sin, is allowed to judge anything and calling SIN, SIN /sarcasm

 

[cast.sheep]

This conversation is a prime example of what is so wrong with our brand of Christianity today. It has gotten mean. There is no positive outcome.

Good day, sir. I said, GOOD DAY, SIR!

 

[16KJV11]

This conversation is a prime example of what is so wrong with our brand of Christianity today. It has gotten mean. There is no positive outcome.

Good day, sir. I said, GOOD DAY, SIR!

TOT has been mean?  Try disagreeing with some of the folk upstairs.  I think TOT has had a Christ like spirit throughout the conversation. 

 

[rsc2a]

HAC - founded by a couple of guys so humble they named the college after themselves.

 

[cast.sheep]

Really???  A Christlike spirit????

I am beginning to think I do not belong on this forum. 

 

[TidesofTruth]

This conversation is a prime example of what is so wrong with our brand of Christianity today. It has gotten mean. There is no positive outcome.

Good day, sir. I said, GOOD DAY, SIR!

The positive outcome is that we must continue to press for accountability. 

I have had and was personally involved with a very high ranking staff member of Thomas Road.  After a period of time I found this person to be a serial adulterer not to mention other things.  Not by rumor.  I saw what I saw.  I heard what I heard.  JF knew these things about this person and yet there was no church discipline, In fact he was kept on staff and caused much loss in the standards that are now being shown to everyone.  The sins were every bit as bad as DH's.  This staff member is still loved throughout the country today and yet the Church and JF did nothing to bring discipline.  The very same coverup was used when JF got involved at the PTL club.  While the Govt made sure that JB got his civil penalty the wickedness that was covered up by JF and his men was unfathomable - "for the sake of Christianity"  The sacrifice of church discipline for the "Sake of the ministry" has sacrificed many ministries, not to mention many families and ultimately lives. 

The sin from the beginning that trumps all other sins and leads to the path of destruction is "The Man-Made Coverup".  There is no redemption of sin while the Man-Made coverup is in place.  There is no restoration while the Man-Made Coverup is in place.  The Man-Made coverup comes in so many forms from lies to stealing to murders including abortion to a whole host of deceptions and construction of conspiracies.  The Man-Made Coverup is responsible for the greatest murders, the greatest lies, the most wickedness that any single sin can produce.  It was Adam's Fig leaf, it was David's Uriah. The Man-Made Coverup is fundamentalisms greatest wickedness.

The Man-Made Coverup is satan's greatest tool to keep the believer from his God. 

So we must be honest.  FBCH faultered and has nearly failed because of "The Man-Made Coverup"  Thomas Road cannot continue to allow its wickedness to continue and to be covered up.  They will travel and are already well on their path to the very end of Romans 1.  Remember The warning at the very end?  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. is the very epitome of hiring a sodomite to coordinate your drama dance routines.  Their coverup is that they hired a contractor to choreograph their dance routines and they do not tell their contractors what their employees must believe nor their sexual orientation.  Yet they publish a video to show how progressive they are displaying this sodomite teaching their young men and women how to dance. What an intellectual and spiritual insult.  Call me a hater.  Tell me that I am what is wrong with fundamentalism.  That is fine but THIS IS AS WICKED AS HELL ITSELF AND YOU KNOW IT!

No I do not believe that Thomas Road nor LU should be our example.  No I do not believe that HAC should aspire to be anything at all like them.    We should, as all Baptist should, open our Bibles and aspire to be like Christ, come what may and stop the wickedness of Man-Made Coverup.

The reason that "the Man-Made Coverup is so wicked, so insidious is because it is a substitute, a satanic replacement for the real coverup - The precious blood of Jesus Christ.  We are so deceived and this goes for FBCH deacon board who refuse to bring up the matter of Church Discipline when you know it is right to do and you STILL WON'T "for the sake of the ministry"  because you are afraid of men (the people of the church) and not afraid of God.  JW is ready but you are stubborn.  You are denying the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ and diminishing the restoration and forgiveness by the power of His blood by continuing this substituting of Man-Made Coverup for the blood. 

Do we believe in Jesus Christ's blood and the power therein or is it just a nice paper doctrine?  That blood wasn't just for salvation!

 

[cast.sheep]

Seee....I agree with most everything you just posted there.  We are actually more in agreement than not.  The problem I had with the posts is the WAY they were directed at me and the assumptions of what I think.  And my initial point has been ignored all the way through.  I was not defending any sinful behavior at Liberty.  Not AT ALL. I truly regret posting any comment on this subject. 

I never said YOU are what is wrong with fundamentalism.

I am not pious.

I never said TRBC or LU should be held up as our example.

I never said HAC should aspire to be like LU.

What I was trying to do....and apparently failed miserably...was to point out that the graduates of LU don't come back to the FFF and tear it apart like we do with our alma mater.    And we have so many things to work on in our own lives, churches, institutions, etc., that to spend any energy focused on anyone else's issues only takes away from the work that we need to do on our own.  That's how I believe about criticizing other people in general, although I find myself doing it regularly.  I have to push the reset button again and again. I also believe that God can use any one, any where, at any time.  And a person with a sincere desire to follow Christ COULD go to LU and make a difference. That's what I believe. I have personally seen it happen. HE is bigger than HAC, bigger than LU, bigger than me, bigger than you.

Please do not attack me on this issue any further.  I have been misunderstood and I don't really want this argument.  My kids went to HAC and Pensacola.  If I was such a great fan of LU, they would have gone there.  I should have never bit on that one. Congratulations! You beat down a 52 year old woman.  I hope that makes you feel better. And if you are from FBCH, I'm sure it did.

 

[rsc2a]

I prefer to run them over with my car. 

 

[cast.sheep]

I prefer to run them over with my car. 

Great way to lighten things up! hahahahaha!

 

[TidesofTruth]

Seee....I agree with most everything you just posted there.  We are actually more in agreement than not.  The problem I had with the posts is the WAY they were directed at me and the assumptions of what I think.  And my initial point has been ignored all the way through.  I was not defending any sinful behavior at Liberty.  Not AT ALL. I truly regret posting any comment on this subject. 

I never said YOU are what is wrong with fundamentalism.

I am not pious.

I never said TRBC or LU should be held up as our example.

I never said HAC should aspire to be like LU.

What I was trying to do....and apparently failed miserably...was to point out that the graduates of LU don't come back to the FFF and tear it apart like we do with our alma mater.    And we have so many things to work on in our own lives, churches, institutions, etc., that to spend any energy focused on anyone else's issues only takes away from the work that we need to do on our own.  That's how I believe about criticizing other people in general, although I find myself doing it regularly.  I have to push the reset button again and again. I also believe that God can use any one, any where, at any time.  And a person with a sincere desire to follow Christ COULD go to LU and make a difference. That's what I believe. I have personally seen it happen. HE is bigger than HAC, bigger than LU, bigger than me, bigger than you.

Please do not attack me on this issue any further.  I have been misunderstood and I don't really want this argument.  My kids went to HAC and Pensacola.  If I was such a great fan of LU, they would have gone there.  I should have never bit on that one. Congratulations! You beat down a 52 year old woman.  I hope that makes you feel better. And if you are from FBCH, I'm sure it did.

I am sorry Some things I addressed to you personally and other things to the group as a whole and that comes off as an attack on you personally.  I know what YOU said.  But I was addressing others also in their comparison.  Just like You are not a deacon at FBC but I do hope the deacons who are both active here and lurkers read it.  I think the only thing that I "attacked" you personally about was piety of not judging.  It is a pet peeve of mine that Christians of all walks of life and not Christians as well like to trot out the "Do not judge" admonition when that is not what scripture calls us to do.  We are to judge by their fruits.  I hit that a bit hard at you personally and I apologize.  However the other things were strictly broad generalities of calling me a hater, calling out sin against LU etc were not directed at you personally.  They were not assumptions about you. 

 

[Citadel of Truth]

 

[Norefund]

Ran across this cover and thought you might get kick out of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy7xd2eW7xY

BOC?

Here is the hypothetical scenario - Let's say Pastor Wilkerson resigned.  Let's say that a personality like Jack Hyles (preaching and teaching style, leadership style, personality style, etc) arrived on the scene.  First of all, would FBCH choose him?  If they did choose him, what would things look like in 10 years? 

Using the information available in 1959, FBCH or any HAC affiliated IFB church of 2014 would not choose him.

1.  Jack Hyles used multiple versions of the Bible.
2.  Jack Hyles associated with Southern Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodist and non-denominational people.
3.  Jack Hyles went to a Southern Baptist School that taught unapproved (from the IFB) doctrines.

Those would be the deal breakers.

He also

4.  Used the contemporary music of his day in his church.
5.  Used new methods to reach people.

The last 2 would probably make the "Old Paths" people angry. 

On a separate what if note

What if Dave Hyles wouldn't have been a pervert and there was no Jenny?

I think DH would have changed FBC to more a contemporary style church.  The music would have changed. (He was taking the youth group to Gaither concerts back in the day.)  I think FBC would look a lot like Thomas Road right now and HAC would be similar to Liberty.

Now that would be an alternate universe! 

On a side note here: Went to a Gaither concert at the invite of a church member.  Felt like I was back at the Stanley Theater in Pittsburgh listening to INXS or some group like that back in the 80's.  Left with a migraine.  My SIL goes to an AOG church and we were invited to Thanksgiving dinner provided by the church on Thanksgiving Day.  Food was off the charts!  During the meal, somebody started cranking up the tunes.  I assume it was Christian, couldn't tell b/c I couldn't understand a word they were singing.  Kind of reminded me of BOC back in the day.  (No, wait, I could understand what BOC sung.)
Tell you what, I was so uplifted in my spirit by what I couldn't understand.
Well, at least the food was good.

Blue Oyster Cult