"Getting Saved"

[ALAYMAN]

Those people who would have received dreams or visions would haves still heard... So, I ask again, do you believe there are other ways someone might be saved?

I doubt it.

No one I know would argue that Isaac was a type of Christ. The fact that he was a type doesn't mean Abraham saw a vision or prophecy (unless you are using a very loose definition for prophecy.

Did you mean "No one I know would argue that Isaac was NOT a type of Christ"?

The bottom line is that it is a reasonable position to assume that the gospel Abraham was preached included the resurrection concept.  Again, Jesus expected the disciples to Emmaus to have understood this based on what was written in the OT.

 

[subllibrm]

Do you believe there are other ways * in which someone might come to salvation?

*(other ways than: the proclamation (via hearing or seeing) of the life, death, and resurrection is the only means)

Considering the way this question is worded, it would seem that you believe there is some "other way" than by seeing or hearing for a person to be saved.

To get back to my OP:

How would that work?
What would it look like?
Would you cite an example from scripture?

 

[subllibrm]

The Bible says that it is the power of God unto salvation is different from For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation.

I didn't know a hair could be split so finely.  8)

 

[rsc2a]

Do you believe there are other ways * in which someone might come to salvation?

*(other ways than: the proclamation (via hearing or seeing) of the life, death, and resurrection is the only means)

Considering the way this question is worded, it would seem that you believe there is some "other way" than by seeing or hearing for a person to be saved.

To get back to my OP:

How would that work?
What would it look like?
Would you cite an example from scripture?

One man was saved by washing in a river. The Israelites were saved by putting blood on their doorposts then by bread falling from heaven. The disciples were saved when Jesus calmed a storm. Jaruis' daughter was saved when Jesus told her to wake up. A woman was saved by touching robes. According to the Bible, we are saved by confession, repentance, belief, faith, and baptism. Like I said in my first post, all of these are methods that God uses to save. But we are all saved by the fact that God made Him who knew no sin to become sin on our behalf...

 

[rsc2a]

Those people who would have received dreams or visions would haves still heard... So, I ask again, do you believe there are other ways someone might be saved?

I doubt it.

As I pointed out in the previous thread, based on the criteria you have given, one must state that people who die in infancy and the severely mentally-ill are heading to Hell, if you want to be at all consistent.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

No one I know would argue that Isaac was a type of Christ. The fact that he was a type doesn't mean Abraham saw a vision or prophecy (unless you are using a very loose definition for prophecy.

Did you mean "No one I know would argue that Isaac was NOT a type of Christ"?[/quote]



[quote author=ALAYMAN]The bottom line is that it is a reasonable position to assume that the gospel Abraham was preached included the resurrection concept.  Again, Jesus expected the disciples to Emmaus to have understood this based on what was written in the OT.[/quote]

Yet not a single disciple understood this. Not. One.

It is a reasonable position that the gospel Abraham preached was "God saves". Other than that, it is speculation.

 

[arctobear]

While reading the tit-for-tat between our two scholars I was reminded of a claim made by a former co-worker years ago. He said that he had been regenerated in the womb. That his salvation in Christ had no earthly time or date. That he had never taken a breath as a condemned sinner as his salvation was secured during gestation. That any sin issues he dealt with were due to having a earthly body and those were forgiven already. As such he had no need to confess or repent because to do so would undermine the atonement paid for by Christ on the cross.

I do not atribute that to anyone here but it is what popped up in my old pea-brain.

I'd be interested to hear the BCV that guy would give to back up his statement.

 

[rsc2a]

The Bible says that it is the power of God unto salvation is different from For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation.

I didn't know a hair could be split so finely.  8)

The Bible is not the gospel of Christ. The Bible tells the gospel of Christ.

 

[prophet]

The Bible says that it is the power of God unto salvation is different from For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation.

I didn't know a hair could be split so finely.  8)

The Bible is not the gospel of Christ. The Bible tells the gospel of Christ.

The Bible is Christ.

Anishinabe

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=prophet]The Bible is Christ.

Anishinabe[/quote]

No.

 

[christundivided]

Do you believe there are other ways * in which someone might come to salvation?

*(other ways than: the proclamation (via hearing or seeing) of the life, death, and resurrection is the only means)

Considering the way this question is worded, it would seem that you believe there is some "other way" than by seeing or hearing for a person to be saved.

To get back to my OP:

How would that work?
What would it look like?
Would you cite an example from scripture?

One man was saved by washing in a river. The Israelites were saved by putting blood on their doorposts then by bread falling from heaven. The disciples were saved when Jesus calmed a storm. Jaruis' daughter was saved when Jesus told her to wake up. A woman was saved by touching robes. According to the Bible, we are saved by confession, repentance, belief, faith, and baptism. Like I said in my first post, all of these are methods that God uses to save. But we are all saved by the fact that God made Him who knew no sin to become sin on our behalf...

Liar.

The man in the river was healed of his disease. Not necessarily saved. You're reading more into than what exists. You can't prove it he was given everlasting life from washing in a river. God has done many good things for many people that are not saved.

When we use the word "saved" it means more than saved from a specific danger being experienced at a particular time. It means more than being saved from some horrible disease.

According to the Bible, we are saved by confession, repentance, belief, faith,

We are not saved by each individual act you reference. They coalesce as a whole to bring about salvation.

and baptism.

Baptism has never saved one individual. Not one person. It was never given to redeem anyone. Not ONE. Its said you can't understand Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost! You have no idea what Peter was trying to tell those who heard him that day. If baptism saved anyone, it would repeated time and time again throughout the Scriptures. Yet, its not.

You are endless lost in your own non sense. You hobby horse a few verses here and there and make no attempt to deal the revelation of God as a "whole" to humanity. You're theology is nothing more than a silly attempt to appease you're own sinful humanity.

Just to prove how silly you are. Lets start a single thread and deal specifically with baptism as a means of salvation? Are you up for the challenge?

 

[christundivided]

No one I know would argue that Isaac was a type of Christ. The fact that he was a type doesn't mean Abraham saw a vision or prophecy (unless you are using a very loose definition for prophecy.

Really? Humm....

Are you really saying that Isaac wasn't a type of Christ?

Do you listen to the sermon I posted?

Did Abraham every receive a vision? Any vision at all?

Rom 4:18  Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19  And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20  He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21  And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22  And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23  Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24  But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25  Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[rsc2a]

One man was saved by washing in a river. The Israelites were saved by putting blood on their doorposts then by bread falling from heaven. The disciples were saved when Jesus calmed a storm. Jaruis' daughter was saved when Jesus told her to wake up. A woman was saved by touching robes. According to the Bible, we are saved by confession, repentance, belief, faith, and baptism. Like I said in my first post, all of these are methods that God uses to save. But we are all saved by the fact that God made Him who knew no sin to become sin on our behalf...

Liar.

Is this necessary?

[quote author=christundivided]The man in the river was healed of his disease. Not necessarily saved. You're reading more into than what exists. You can't prove it he was given everlasting life from washing in a river. God has done many good things for many people that are not saved.

When we use the word "saved" it means more than saved from a specific danger being experienced at a particular time. It means more than being saved from some horrible disease. [/quote]

Mark seems to equate the two:

And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, “Why do you question these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise, take up your bed and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic—“I say to you, rise, pick up your bed, and go home.” (Mark 2:5-11, ESV)

[quote author=christundivided]According to the Bible, we are saved by confession, repentance, belief, faith,

We are not saved by each individual act you reference. They coalesce as a whole to bring about salvation.

and baptism.

Baptism has never saved one individual. Not one person. It was never given to redeem anyone. Not ONE. [/quote]

No....you just keep ignoring the verses that contradict your own views. The exact same type of language used to describe everything you just bolded, yet you choose to parse out the one.

[quote author=christundivided]Its said you can't understand Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost! You have no idea what Peter was trying to tell those who heard him that day. If baptism saved anyone, it would repeated time and time again throughout the Scriptures. Yet, its not. [/quote]

It's in more than one place.  :-\

[quote author=christundivided]You are endless lost in your own non sense. You hobby horse a few verses here and there and make no attempt to deal the revelation of God as a "whole" to humanity. You're theology is nothing more than a silly attempt to appease you're own sinful humanity. [/quote]

I deal with the revelation of God as a whole which is precisely why I am stating what I am stating and wouldn't argue for a gnostic position that would say separate the physical and spiritual as you are outlining above. It's why I hold to both a PSA and a CV view of the atonement. It's why I can say that I have been saved, am being saved, and will be saved. It's why I would argue that belief, good works, confession, repentance, and baptism are all methods that God uses to bring about salvation although the atoning sacrifice of Jesus at Calvary is the only reason that those methods have any value. It's precisely because I do not ignore verses that I find problematic (and instead continue to wrestle with them) in order to force my theology into my own preconceived views.

[quote author=christundivided]Just to prove how silly you are. Lets start a single thread and deal specifically with baptism as a means of salvation? Are you up for the challenge?[/quote]

Nah...

 

[subllibrm]

One man was saved by washing in a river. The Israelites were saved by putting blood on their doorposts then by bread falling from heaven. The disciples were saved when Jesus calmed a storm. Jaruis' daughter was saved when Jesus told her to wake up. A woman was saved by touching robes. According to the Bible, we are saved by confession, repentance, belief, faith, and baptism. Like I said in my first post, all of these are methods that God uses to save. But we are all saved by the fact that God made Him who knew no sin to become sin on our behalf...

Maybe it would be better if you were to define "saved". As Judas was presumably with them in the boat when Jesus calmed the storm are we to then expect to see him in heaven because Jesus "saved" him that day?

BTW all of those events that you mentioned were just that, events. That they experienced, felt, heard, saw .... you seem to intimate that people can and do get saved without knowing how (or better who) it happened or that it happened at all.

... again, the problem seems to be a lack of definition in what you mean by "saved".

 

[rsc2a]

What is salvation? Salvation is God's deliverance from sin and its consequences.

 

[subllibrm]

While reading the tit-for-tat between our two scholars I was reminded of a claim made by a former co-worker years ago. He said that he had been regenerated in the womb. That his salvation in Christ had no earthly time or date. That he had never taken a breath as a condemned sinner as his salvation was secured during gestation. That any sin issues he dealt with were due to having a earthly body and those were forgiven already. As such he had no need to confess or repent because to do so would undermine the atonement paid for by Christ on the cross.

I do not atribute that to anyone here but it is what popped up in my old pea-brain.

I'd be interested to hear the BCV that guy would give to back up his statement.

He hung his argument on the fact that because he never "experienced" conversion (and to claim such would give him some of the credit) then his election before the foundation of the world was applied prior to his consciousness.

 

[christundivided]

One man was saved by washing in a river. The Israelites were saved by putting blood on their doorposts then by bread falling from heaven. The disciples were saved when Jesus calmed a storm. Jaruis' daughter was saved when Jesus told her to wake up. A woman was saved by touching robes. According to the Bible, we are saved by confession, repentance, belief, faith, and baptism. Like I said in my first post, all of these are methods that God uses to save. But we are all saved by the fact that God made Him who knew no sin to become sin on our behalf...

Liar.

Is this necessary?

Yes. It is necessary. Surely you're little feelings didn't get hurt? I can assure you that you're beliefs offend me as much as my use of the word "liar" to you.

Mark seems to equate the two:

And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, “Why do you question these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise, take up your bed and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic—“I say to you, rise, pick up your bed, and go home.” (Mark 2:5-11, ESV)

Are you saying Mark does or its just "seems" to you? Surely you don't base your belief on how something "seems". So don't pretend to be "on the fence.".

Again. You slid the shell. You mentioned a large list. Deal with the list you mentioned. You did not mention the "paralytic" "son". Can you stop sliding the shell. If you're going to "jump" all over the place..... then how can anyone consider you to be honest?

Since you've mentioned the "paralytic" son.....

Question for you. Does forgiven of sin equal "salvation"? Is that the argument you're making? There is a great argument to be made that Christ's death forgave ALL SIN. Have you studied that argument?... and no, I am not a Universalist.

No....you just keep ignoring the verses that contradict your own views. The exact same type of language used to describe everything you just bolded, yet you choose to parse out the one.

No. You've mentioned it more than once. Seems like you're pretty confident in your assertion that baptism saved someone at some time. I expect you to stand behind that assertion. I singled it out to focus you on defending it. Can you focus on just one assertion or are incapable of defending yourself?

[quote author=christundivided]Just to prove how silly you are. Lets start a single thread and deal specifically with baptism as a means of salvation? Are you up for the challenge?

Nah...[/quote]

Didn't think so. Care to change your mind?

 

[subllibrm]

The Bible says that it is the power of God unto salvation is different from For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation.

I didn't know a hair could be split so finely.  8)

The Bible is not the gospel of Christ. The Bible tells the gospel of Christ.

The pronoun "it" in this case was very clearly linked to the antecedent "gospel" which was what Aman claimed was the power of God unto salvation. So the line you take issue with reads "The Bible says it (the gospel) is the power of God unto salvation" and I find no fault with that statement.

 

[subllibrm]

[quote author=prophet]The Bible is Christ.

Anishinabe

No.
[/quote]

This I will agree with you without reservation.

 

[christundivided]

What is salvation? Salvation is God's deliverance from sin and its consequences.

This proves your singular focus. This is one of the reasons your theology is nonsensical.

Deliverance from sin is just the beginning. The purpose of salvation has many facets. Facets that never found themselves in the original creation of mankind.

 

[subllibrm]

What is salvation? Salvation is God's deliverance from sin and its consequences.

So Judas is in heaven then?