"Getting Saved"

[christundivided]

[quote author=prophet]The Bible is Christ.

Anishinabe

No.

This I will agree with you without reservation.
[/quote]

While I agree with the statement as a whole. Where the "Bible" accurately is presented as the "Word of God", it can be said to embody Christ in this present age.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]Liar.

Is this necessary?

Yes. It is necessary. Surely you're little feelings didn't get hurt? I can assure you that you're beliefs offend me as much as my use of the word "liar" to you. [/quote]

No...it is just extremely un-Christlike, and I would hope for better from someone who claims to follow Him.

[quote author=christundivided]

Mark seems to equate the two:

And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, “Why do you question these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise, take up your bed and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the paralytic—“I say to you, rise, pick up your bed, and go home.” (Mark 2:5-11, ESV)

Are you saying Mark does or its just "seems" to you? Surely you don't base your belief on how something "seems". So don't pretend to be "on the fence."[/quote]

Jesus pretty clearly states, "Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise, take up your bed and walk’?" Apparently, He doesn't have a problem equating the two. (Neither does Paul.) Neither one of them was mislead by the type of gnosticism you are preaching.

[quote author=christundivided]Again. You slid the shell. You mentioned a large list. Deal with the list you mentioned. You did not mention the "paralytic" "son". Can you stop sliding the shell. If you're going to "jump" all over the place..... then how can anyone consider you to be honest?[/quote]

I've mentioned tons of examples. It was never meant to be an exhaustive list,  but written to show a pattern. And the pattern is simple, all of those examples were examples of God delivering people from the effects of sin and its consequences. I thought you said you understood the "revelation of God as a whole" instead of focusing on the "a few verses here and there".

[quote author=christundivided]Since you've mentioned the "paralytic" son.....

Question for you. Does forgiven of sin equal "salvation"? Is that the argument you're making?[/quote]

Yes. And yes (but it is not limited to that).

[quote author=christundivided]There is a great argument to be made that Christ's death forgave ALL SIN. Have you studied that argument?... and no, I am not a Universalist. [/quote]

I'm quite familiar with the argument, yes.

[quote author=christundivided]

No....you just keep ignoring the verses that contradict your own views. The exact same type of language used to describe everything you just bolded, yet you choose to parse out the one.

No. You've mentioned it more than once. Seems like you're pretty confident in your assertion that baptism saved someone at some time. I expect you to stand behind that assertion. I singled it out to focus you on defending it. Can you focus on just one assertion or are incapable of defending yourself?[/quote]

Let me repeat my mantra...everyone here knows it. "Jesus saves." I've added a host of other phrases to the end before including forms of the following:

- Although He may use a variety of methods to accomplish it.
- Period. Not belief. Not confession. Not baptism. Not good works. Jesus.

[quote author=christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]Just to prove how silly you are. Lets start a single thread and deal specifically with baptism as a means of salvation? Are you up for the challenge?

Nah...[/quote]

Didn't think so. Care to change your mind?[/quote]

I see no reason to start a thread to debate something that is currently being debated on this thread and has been debated on previous threads, so no...not interested in changing my mind.

 

[rsc2a]

The Bible says that it is the power of God unto salvation is different from For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation.

I didn't know a hair could be split so finely.  8)

The Bible is not the gospel of Christ. The Bible tells the gospel of Christ.

The pronoun "it" in this case was very clearly linked to the antecedent "gospel" which was what Aman claimed was the power of God unto salvation. So the line you take issue with reads "The Bible says it (the gospel) is the power of God unto salvation" and I find no fault with that statement.

If that is the case, then I stand corrected.

As it is, too many people seem to make an idol out of Scripture. (See prophet and CU as exhibits A and B.)

 

[rsc2a]

What is salvation? Salvation is God's deliverance from sin and its consequences.

This proves your singular focus. This is one of the reasons your theology is nonsensical.

Deliverance from sin is just the beginning. The purpose of salvation has many facets. Facets that never found themselves in the original creation of mankind.

Would you like to offer your own definition?

 

[rsc2a]

What is salvation? Salvation is God's deliverance from sin and its consequences.

So Judas is in heaven then?

I have no idea. Judging one's eternal destiny is WAY above my pay grade.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]While I agree with the statement as a whole. Where the "Bible" accurately is presented as the "Word of God", it can be said to embody Christ in this present age.[/quote]

It reveals Jesus. It does not embody Him.  :-\

 

[christundivided]

The Bible says that it is the power of God unto salvation is different from For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation.

I didn't know a hair could be split so finely.  8)

The Bible is not the gospel of Christ. The Bible tells the gospel of Christ.

The pronoun "it" in this case was very clearly linked to the antecedent "gospel" which was what Aman claimed was the power of God unto salvation. So the line you take issue with reads "The Bible says it (the gospel) is the power of God unto salvation" and I find no fault with that statement.

If that is the case, then I stand corrected.

As it is, too many people seem to make an idol out of Scripture. (See prophet and CU as exhibits A and B.)

LOL. You know nothing about me. I've never been accused of making an idol out of the "Scriptures". What I said was true and accurate. You're the one that loves to endlessly twist what someone says. You question my use of the word "liar" and then you claim I make an idol out of the Scriptures?

Which is more offensive?

 

[christundivided]

What is salvation? Salvation is God's deliverance from sin and its consequences.

So Judas is in heaven then?

I have no idea. Judging one's eternal destiny is WAY above my pay grade.

Really. You say that people got saved by washing in a river and then you claim you have no idea of someone's eternal destiny?

You did get one thing right. We all know what you're saying is above your "pay grade".

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]While I agree with the statement as a whole. Where the "Bible" accurately is presented as the "Word of God", it can be said to embody Christ in this present age.

It reveals Jesus. It does not embody Him.  :-\
[/quote]

How does someone get "revealed" with talking of things that "embody" that person?

 

[subllibrm]

What is salvation? Salvation is God's deliverance from sin and its consequences.

So Judas is in heaven then?

I have no idea. Judging one's eternal destiny is WAY above my pay grade.

But you gave Jesus calming the storm as an example when asked to define "saved". Were the disciples "saved" unto an eternal home with God or just saved from being swamped and drowning?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]While I agree with the statement as a whole. Where the "Bible" accurately is presented as the "Word of God", it can be said to embody Christ in this present age.

It reveals Jesus. It does not embody Him.  :-\

How does someone get "revealed" with talking of things that "embody" that person?[/quote]

Your question makes no sense...

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]While I agree with the statement as a whole. Where the "Bible" accurately is presented as the "Word of God", it can be said to embody Christ in this present age.

It reveals Jesus. It does not embody Him.  :-\

How does someone get "revealed" without talking of things that "embody" that person?

Your question makes no sense...
[/quote]

I should have wrote without. Here you go.

How does someone get "revealed" without talking of things that "embody" that person?

 

[rsc2a]

What is salvation? Salvation is God's deliverance from sin and its consequences.

So Judas is in heaven then?

I have no idea. Judging one's eternal destiny is WAY above my pay grade.

But you gave Jesus calming the storm as an example when asked to define "saved".

Yes.

[quote author=subllibrm]Were the disciples "saved" unto an eternal home with God or just saved from being swamped and drowning?[/quote]

They were saved from "sin and its consequences".

(Really...I have no idea why there seems to be such a problem with this definition. It's a pretty standard one for salvation in a theological sense.)

 

[rsc2a]

How does someone get "revealed" without talking of things that "embody" that person?

Your question makes no sense...

I should have wrote without. Here you go.

How does someone get "revealed" without talking of things that "embody" that person?

???

 

[christundivided]

How does someone get "revealed" without talking of things that "embody" that person?

Your question makes no sense...

I should have wrote without. Here you go.

How does someone get "revealed" without talking of things that "embody" that person?

???

You said the Scriptures reveal Christ, AFTER, I said the Scriptures embody Christ.

I then asked a very simple question. How can someone get "revealed" without talking of things that "embody" that person? I'm sorry you have a comprehension problem. The self proclaimed "Mr heretic".

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]You said the Scriptures reveal Christ, AFTER, I said the Scriptures embody Christ.

I then asked a very simple question. How can someone get "revealed" without talking of things that "embody" that person?[/quote]

That bolded part. That is the difference in recorded revelation and embodiment.

[quote author=christundivided]I'm sorry you have a comprehension problem.[/quote]

You clarified your question by asking the exact same question using the exact same words and the fact that I didn't understand the second question any more than the first means I have a comprehension problem?

[quote author=christundivided]The self proclaimed "Mr heretic".[/quote]

I do strongly recommend S.J. Parris's trilogy.

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]You said the Scriptures reveal Christ, AFTER, I said the Scriptures embody Christ.

I then asked a very simple question. How can someone get "revealed" without talking of things that "embody" that person?

That bolded part. That is the difference in recorded revelation and embodiment.

[quote author=christundivided]I'm sorry you have a comprehension problem.[/quote]

You clarified your question by asking the exact same question using the exact same words and the fact that I didn't understand the second question any more than the first means I have a comprehension problem?

[quote author=christundivided]The self proclaimed "Mr heretic".[/quote]

I do strongly recommend S.J. Parris's trilogy.
[/quote]

Humm... I don't know why I wasted my time. Have at it rsca. I don't expect to see anything you've written finding its way into anyone's beliefs system. Congratulations on becoming an self correctly anomaly. 

 

[subllibrm]

They were saved from "sin and its consequences".

(Really...I have no idea why there seems to be such a problem with this definition. It's a pretty standard one for salvation in a theological sense.)

Since we can't say for sure that Judas was in the boat that day we can't say for sure that he was a recipient of the "salvation" by way of the calmed storm. What we can say by your definition is that everyone in the boat that day must be in heaven (hell being a consequence of sin to be "saved from"). Therefore, if Judas was in the boat, he must also be in heaven.

Unless you have some other definition that your aren't sharing, I have no option but to make this application with your words.

****************************

While we are at it, let's flip your explanation over. Today is the anniversary of the sinking of the Titanic. 1500 lives lost 700 "saved" from the consequences of sin (death). Do we then say the lack of "salvation" for the 1500 dead means that they aren't in heaven?

FWIW Me still thinks that you have some secondary/alternate meaning when you use the word "saved".

 

[rsc2a]

They were saved from "sin and its consequences".

(Really...I have no idea why there seems to be such a problem with this definition. It's a pretty standard one for salvation in a theological sense.)

Since we can't say for sure that Judas was in the boat that day we can't say for sure that he was a recipient of the "salvation" by way of the calmed storm. What we can say by your definition is that everyone in the boat that day must be in heaven (hell being a consequence of sin to be "saved from"). Therefore, if Judas was in the boat, he must also be in heaven.

Unless you have some other definition that your aren't sharing, I have no option but to make this application with your words.

No...

Salvation is not a singular event. Salvation is a process. Just because someone was "saved" from the sin and its consequences at some point (e.g. Judas in the boat) does not mean that they will saved from sin and its consequences at some later point (e.g. Judas now?).

[quote author=subllibrm]While we are at it, let's flip your explanation over. Today is the anniversary of the sinking of the Titanic. 1500 lives lost 700 "saved" from the consequences of sin (death). Do we then say the lack of "salvation" for the 1500 dead means that they aren't in heaven?[/quote]

It means that they weren't saved from death (sorta) at that particular time. (The "sorta" is because if they are among the elect, then they are, indeed, still saved from death.)

[quote author=subllibrm]FWIW Me still thinks that you have some secondary/alternate meaning when you use the word "saved".[/quote]

No...I have the same meaning I stated at the very beginning:

Salvation is God's deliverance from sin and its consequences.

You can also find that definition here, here, here, and here (along with a ton of other places).

 

[subllibrm]

No...

Salvation is not a singular event. Salvation is a process. Just because someone was "saved" from the sin and its consequences at some point (e.g. Judas in the boat) does not mean that they will saved from sin and its consequences at some later point (e.g. Judas now?).

So your definition of "saved" is not about eternal life at all. Or all of the examples you have given are of partial salvation that may or may not lead to a final (eternal) salvation. This goes a long way toward explaining why your posts haven't made any sense to me. You aren't talking about the same thing that I am.

To wit:

1 John 5:13

13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Permanent, final, eternal salvation of the soul from the torment of hell and the promise of never ending life with God.

BTW getting saved out of a storm is a good thing. I was caught in a riptide once and God graciously allowed me a toe hold of sand bar. Did He save me from drowning that day? Absolutely! But I was already heaven bound at the time and living or dying made no difference to that truth.