"Getting Saved"

[christundivided]

You really are naive. Surely you've read Hebrew's Chapter 4.

Heb 4:2  For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Maybe you should consider the source of Hebrew 4:2

Deu 32:20  And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Hey now, don't go stealin' aces right out of my pocket like that!

They don't want to deal with Scriptures like those, makes 'em real uncomfortable when confronted with the word of God as it speaks plainly.

Exactly. Regardless of our own beliefs and opinions. We all must accurately establish the entirety of the Scriptures into a proper presentation of the Truth. We are such a privileged group of peoples that we have the pleasure of having the entirety of "this saith the Lord" at our finger tips. We may of had some "run ins" in the past but I consider you to have a clear handle on what you believe. I seems like its constantly "amateur hour" with rsca. I can see CM's intent, but I can't make heads or tails of rsca's theology. I honestly believe he makes it up as he goes.

On a side note, I've always liked that word "mixed" found in Hebrews 4:2. It must drive a hyper-Calvinist crazy to see the word "mixed" associated with finding "profit from the Gospel".

I remember the night the Gospel mixed with the faith I had in Christ Jesus. I had long believed in Jesus Christ. Yet, the reality of the Gospel message had never found its way into my heart. I remember exactly when that happened. I've never been the same since. Even when I did the same things, I still have never been the same. I became a new creation. I wish everyone could experience the new birth.

But Scriptures are clear that the OT saints in part did understand that there would be a resurrection, as Mary and Martha attest to.  That's why the saducees doctrine was scoffed at.

Heb 11:17  By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Heb 11:18  Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Heb 11:19  Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

 

[rsc2a]

When your soteriology requires one to know and believe that...

...Jesus was born of a virgin, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried, descended into Hell, was raised again on the third day where He now sits at the right hand of the Father....

....you have to really reach or else you'll throw the entire grouping of OT saints under the salvation bus and watch them get run over. Which is why you have people making idiotic statements like "Abraham not only heard the gospel..." In fact, David "only only heard", Lot "only only heard", Noah "only only heard", Daniel "only only heard", Joseph "only only heard", Ruth "only only heard"....

I'll take that as you'd rather get somebody who agrees with you to slap you on your back rather than discussing Scriptures, as I've cited several that prove my point and you've addressed none of them.  I haven't even brought any faithful and reliable commentators opinions on the matter, yet.  Of course if you won't listen to the word of God I'm sure that you won't listen to reasonable explanations of it from evangelical Christians and scholars.

I've discussed Scripture. I've cited Scripture. CM cited Scripture. In fact, the Scripture we cited listed a whole lot of things that bring salvation. Yet you keep ignoring them because they don't fit your narrow view of who God is. You refuse to face the simple facts that Scripture details a whole lot of things that bring salvation...all which are ultimately because Jesus brings salvation using those things listed.

 

[rsc2a]

But Christ said that Abraham received it and rejoiced, despite the possibility/probability that he didn't fully comprehend the complete scope of the atonement.

You're really reaching.  You have no idea what Abraham comprehended, and neither do I.

When your soteriology requires one to know and believe that...

...Jesus was born of a virgin, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried, descended into Hell, was raised again on the third day where He now sits at the right hand of the Father....

....you have to really reach or else you'll throw the entire grouping of OT saints under the salvation bus and watch them get run over. Which is why you have people making idiotic statements like "Abraham not only heard the gospel..." In fact, David "only only heard", Lot "only only heard", Noah "only only heard", Daniel "only only heard", Joseph "only only heard", Ruth "only only heard"....

You really are naive. Surely you've read Hebrew's Chapter 4.

Heb 4:2  For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Maybe you should consider the source of Hebrew 4:2

Deu 32:20  And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Do you know know what "gospel" means either? Let me help you out:

Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. (Hebrews 4:1-2, ESV)

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Hey now, don't go stealin' aces right out of my pocket like that!

They don't want to deal with Scriptures like those, makes 'em real uncomfortable when confronted with the word of God as it speaks plainly.[/quote]

Kind of like these passages?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]But Scriptures are clear that the OT saints in part did understand that there would be a resurrection, as Mary and Martha attest to.  That's why the saducees doctrine was scoffed at.[/quote]

No...they're really not. In fact, you don't really start getting any resurrection prophecies until after the Babylonian captivity. And the Saducees weren't a fringe group, but pretty popular among those who were actively trying to live out their faith beliefs.

 

[christundivided]

But Christ said that Abraham received it and rejoiced, despite the possibility/probability that he didn't fully comprehend the complete scope of the atonement.

You're really reaching.  You have no idea what Abraham comprehended, and neither do I.

When your soteriology requires one to know and believe that...

...Jesus was born of a virgin, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried, descended into Hell, was raised again on the third day where He now sits at the right hand of the Father....

....you have to really reach or else you'll throw the entire grouping of OT saints under the salvation bus and watch them get run over. Which is why you have people making idiotic statements like "Abraham not only heard the gospel..." In fact, David "only only heard", Lot "only only heard", Noah "only only heard", Daniel "only only heard", Joseph "only only heard", Ruth "only only heard"....

You really are naive. Surely you've read Hebrew's Chapter 4.

Heb 4:2  For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Maybe you should consider the source of Hebrew 4:2

Deu 32:20  And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Do you know know what "gospel" means either? Let me help you out:

Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. (Hebrews 4:1-2, ESV)

rsca...... The fact that the word "Gospel" literally means "good news"..... doesn't change  the "fact" that the "Gospel" message is a distinct piece of "good news". Its also "good news" when someone finds out their going to have a child..... YET, don't tell me that such "good news" is the the "good news" of the "Gospel".

Regardless, this "good news".... the SAME GOODNEWS" was preached to both. Did you see the "COMPARISON" in the verse to those in Deu 32 and those in the early church? There isn't a contrast drawn. You are trying to establish a contrast. One doesn't exist rsca.

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Hey now, don't go stealin' aces right out of my pocket like that!

They don't want to deal with Scriptures like those, makes 'em real uncomfortable when confronted with the word of God as it speaks plainly.

Kind of like these passages?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]But Scriptures are clear that the OT saints in part did understand that there would be a resurrection, as Mary and Martha attest to.  That's why the saducees doctrine was scoffed at.[/quote]

No...they're really not. In fact, you don't really start getting any resurrection prophecies until after the Babylonian captivity. And the Saducees weren't a fringe group, but pretty popular among those who were actively trying to live out their faith beliefs.
[/quote]

I posted a verse from Hebrews 11:19. It details a prophecy or "vision/figure" given to Abraham. Yes, we only read about it in Hebrews 11:19 BUT, it took place with Abraham. I'm sorry you can't recognize this.

 

[christundivided]

But Christ said that Abraham received it and rejoiced, despite the possibility/probability that he didn't fully comprehend the complete scope of the atonement.

You're really reaching.  You have no idea what Abraham comprehended, and neither do I.

When your soteriology requires one to know and believe that...

...Jesus was born of a virgin, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried, descended into Hell, was raised again on the third day where He now sits at the right hand of the Father....

....you have to really reach or else you'll throw the entire grouping of OT saints under the salvation bus and watch them get run over. Which is why you have people making idiotic statements like "Abraham not only heard the gospel..." In fact, David "only only heard", Lot "only only heard", Noah "only only heard", Daniel "only only heard", Joseph "only only heard", Ruth "only only heard"....

You really are naive. Surely you've read Hebrew's Chapter 4.

Heb 4:2  For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Maybe you should consider the source of Hebrew 4:2

Deu 32:20  And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Do you know know what "gospel" means either? Let me help you out:

Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. (Hebrews 4:1-2, ESV)

rsca...... The fact that the word "Gospel" literally means "good news"..... doesn't change  the "fact" that the "Gospel" message is a distinct piece of "good news". Its also "good news" when someone finds out their going to have a child..... YET, don't tell me that such "good news" is the the "good news" of the "Gospel".

Regardless, this "good news".... the SAME GOODNEWS" was preached to both. Did you see the "COMPARISON" in the verse to those in Deu 32 and those in the early church? There isn't a contrast drawn. You are trying to establish a contrast. One doesn't exist rsca.

I've challenged CM to listen to this sermon. Would you mind taking time and listening to the sermon? Its only about 50 mins long. Might just change your options. Might not.

http://oldpathsermons.com/player/?audioid=18&file=GospelPreachedToAbraham.mp3

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]I seems like its constantly "amateur hour" with rsca. I can see CM's intent, but I can't make heads or tails of rsca's theology.[/quote]

I pretty much spelled out what I believe concerning salvation at the beginning of the thread. Maybe you are curious about what I believe about baptism? My philosophy on the Bible?

[quote author=christundivided]I honestly believe he makes it up as he goes. [/quote]

Funny...you've said that before too...

 

[Castor Muscular]

Just as an FYI (references to "gospel" in the Gospels)

Matthew 4:23
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.

Matthew 9:35
[ The Compassion of Jesus ] Then Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

Matthew 11:5
The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew 26:13
Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her.”

Mark 1:1
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Mark 1:14
Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

Mark 1:15
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Mark 8:35
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it.

Mark 10:29
So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s,

Mark 13:10
And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations.

Mark 14:9
Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her.”

Mark 16:15
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Luke 4:18
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed;

Luke 7:22
Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Luke 9:6
So they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.

Luke 20:1
Now it happened on one of those days, as He taught the people in the temple and preached the gospel, that the chief priests and the scribes, together with the elders, confronted Him

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]I seems like its constantly "amateur hour" with rsca. I can see CM's intent, but I can't make heads or tails of rsca's theology.

I pretty much spelled out what I believe concerning salvation at the beginning of the thread. Maybe you are curious about what I believe about baptism? My philosophy on the Bible?

[quote author=christundivided]I honestly believe he makes it up as he goes. [/quote]

Funny...you've said that before too...
[/quote]

Okay. I've said it before. Now, you've had your response again. What particularly are you trying to say? Does it bother you that I repeat some things I write? Are you demanding I use links to previous posts I've made?

Or, are you just rambling?

When I said... and say... you make it up as you go.... Its not that you haven't TRIED To present what you believe. Its rather that you are pretty "inept" at backing it up or establishes said belief in light of the entirety of the Scriptures. For example, I expect to see "Jesus saves" as you response any minute now.....

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]rsca...... The fact that the word "Gospel" literally means "good news"..... doesn't change  the "fact" that the "Gospel" message is a distinct piece of "good news".[/quote]

This would be correct.

[quote author=christundivided]Its also "good news" when someone finds out their going to have a child..... YET, don't tell me that such "good news" is the the "good news" of the "Gospel". [/quote]

No...but if a 1st century Greek-speaker was wanting to tell you the "good news" that they were going to have a child, would you care to guess which word they'd use?

[quote author=christundivided]Regardless, this "good news".... the SAME GOODNEWS" was preached to both. Did you see the "COMPARISON" in the verse to those in Deu 32 and those in the early church? There isn't a contrast drawn. You are trying to establish a contrast. One doesn't exist rsca.[/quote]

The "good news" cited in Hebrews was a psalm from David promising "rest". The "good news' given to the Israelites (pre-David) was that God would give them the Promised Land. The "good news" given to the early church was that Jesus was the ultimate "rest", the ultimate "Promised Land", the fulfillment of everything God had ever promised.

...seriously, you two have thrown the idea of progressive revelation completely out the window.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Castor Muscular]Luke 9:6
So they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.[/quote]

Interesting...because we know they weren't preaching Christ crucified...

 

[prophet]

Like I said.  Conviction isn't  mentioned.  Reproval is.  Learn English.

Anishinabe

lol, maybe it's demon possession that causes you to open your mouth and insert your foot?

Heb Strong: H819 H2713 H3198 H5060 H7561

1) to convict, refute, confute
1a) generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted
1b) by conviction to bring to the light, to expose
2) to find fault with, correct
2a) by word
2a1) to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove
2a2) to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation
2b) by deed
2b1) to chasten, to punish

If you are suggesting that reprove is a synonymn for convict, you don't know English. 

Anishinabe

 

[christundivided]

Just as an FYI (references to "gospel" in the Gospels)

Matthew 4:23
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.

Matthew 9:35
[ The Compassion of Jesus ] Then Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

Matthew 11:5
The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew 26:13
Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her.”

Mark 1:1
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Mark 1:14
Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

Mark 1:15
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Mark 8:35
For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it.

Mark 10:29
So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s,

Mark 13:10
And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations.

Mark 14:9
Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her.”

Mark 16:15
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Luke 4:18
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed;

Luke 7:22
Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Luke 9:6
So they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.

Luke 20:1
Now it happened on one of those days, as He taught the people in the temple and preached the gospel, that the chief priests and the scribes, together with the elders, confronted Him

Maybe one day you will realize that the Gospel message has evolved based on various revelations through out history. Its not that anyone says that God has changed. Its rather that man has changed and what God has revealed to man has changed. There is more "light" now than ever. Yet, there has always been some form of "light" throughout history. "Light" creates "shadows". You have no "shadows" without "light".

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]I seems like its constantly "amateur hour" with rsca. I can see CM's intent, but I can't make heads or tails of rsca's theology.

I pretty much spelled out what I believe concerning salvation at the beginning of the thread. Maybe you are curious about what I believe about baptism? My philosophy on the Bible?

[quote author=christundivided]I honestly believe he makes it up as he goes.

Funny...you've said that before too...
[/quote]

Okay. I've said it before. Now, you've had your response again. What particularly are you trying to say? Does it bother you that I repeat some things I write? Are you demanding I use links to previous posts I've made?

Or, are you just rambling?[/quote]

I'm just amused that, after being corrected before (actually several times) when accusing me of "making it up as I go along", you still persist in saying the same thing.

[quote author=christundivided]When I said... and say... you make it up as you go.... Its not that you haven't TRIED To present what you believe. Its rather that you are pretty "inept" at backing it up or establishes said belief in light of the entirety of the Scriptures. For example, I expect to see "Jesus saves" as you response any minute now..... [/quote]

Funny...I'm not the one ignoring whole sections because they don't fit my preconceived notions regarding what salvation is...

 

[christundivided]

...seriously, you two have thrown the idea of progressive revelation completely out the window.

Really? You got that from what I wrote?

I asked you to listen to the sermon I posted. Are you going to do it?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]Maybe one day you will realize that the Gospel message has evolved based on various revelations through out history. Its not that anyone says that God has changed. Its rather that man has changed and what God has revealed to man has changed. There is more "light" now than ever. Yet, there has always been some form of "light" throughout history. "Light" creates "shadows". You have no "shadows" without "light".[/quote]

Wait...now the OT saints didn't have the whole story. You just said they did. 

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=Castor Muscular]Luke 9:6
So they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.

Interesting...because we know they weren't preaching Christ crucified...
[/quote]

You must really hate Luke 24

Luk 24:25  Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26  Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27  And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Christ called his own disciples "O fools" and "slow of heart"

because they refused to believe ALL THE PROPHETS has spoken of Him.

Read verse 26 rsca.... read it more than twice. How about a dozen times?

Christ then began WHERE? WHERE did Christ begin to remind his disciples of the Truth of the Gospel? Where rsca?

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]Maybe one day you will realize that the Gospel message has evolved based on various revelations through out history. Its not that anyone says that God has changed. Its rather that man has changed and what God has revealed to man has changed. There is more "light" now than ever. Yet, there has always been some form of "light" throughout history. "Light" creates "shadows". You have no "shadows" without "light".

Wait...now the OT saints didn't have the whole story. You just said they did. 
[/quote]

I never said they had the entire revelation of the Scriptures. Don't put words in my mouth. Why are you being so dishonest?

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Hey now, don't go stealin' aces right out of my pocket like that!

They don't want to deal with Scriptures like those, makes 'em real uncomfortable when confronted with the word of God as it speaks plainly.

Kind of like these passages?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]But Scriptures are clear that the OT saints in part did understand that there would be a resurrection, as Mary and Martha attest to.  That's why the saducees doctrine was scoffed at.

No...they're really not. In fact, you don't really start getting any resurrection prophecies until after the Babylonian captivity. And the Saducees weren't a fringe group, but pretty popular among those who were actively trying to live out their faith beliefs.
[/quote]

I posted a verse from Hebrews 11:19. It details a prophecy or "vision/figure" given to Abraham. Yes, we only read about it in Hebrews 11:19 BUT, it took place with Abraham. I'm sorry you can't recognize this.
[/quote]

a repost for rsca. Maybe he will not ignore it this time.